Owen is a ballon dor winner not Fifa World Player of the Year. But now its Fifa Ballon Dor. And people still laugh at Owen and Cannavaro for winning that awards. Sneijder would be one of them.

Messi doesnt need a trophy to be best player. Thats why i call true individual goat. Team has nothing to do when he takes the ball dribbles 3-4 people and scores. This is his individual ability

Forza wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:

Forza wrote:So what you're saying is that if Sneijder was on a team where he was the only good player, then he would be a worthy winner? hahaha

Is Messi the only good player on his team? Is CR the only good player on his team? No, but they are by far and easily the best performers, which is why they contend for the award, not Sneijder.

So what you're saying now is that to be the best in the world the primary criterion is to be the stand-out player of your team? I would've thought it would be to be the best at winning things...

If you're not clearly the best player on your team I don't see how could you be the best in the world

Messi will win the Balon d'or this year again in all likelihood even though Bayern won the treble. Going by your logic, shouldn't a Bayern player be winning it?

Albiceleste wrote:

Forza wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:Is Messi the only good player on his team? Is CR the only good player on his team? No, but they are by far and easily the best performers, which is why they contend for the award, not Sneijder.

So what you're saying now is that to be the best in the world the primary criterion is to be the stand-out player of your team? I would've thought it would be to be the best at winning things...

If you're not clearly the best player on your team I don't see how could you be the best in the world

Messi will win the Balon d'or this year again in all likelihood even though Bayern won the treble. Going by your logic, shouldn't a Bayern player be winning it?

Damn straight a Bayern player should be winning it.

Forza wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:

Forza wrote:So what you're saying now is that to be the best in the world the primary criterion is to be the stand-out player of your team? I would've thought it would be to be the best at winning things...

If you're not clearly the best player on your team I don't see how could you be the best in the world

Messi will win the Balon d'or this year again in all likelihood even though Bayern won the treble. Going by your logic, shouldn't a Bayern player be winning it?

Damn straight a Bayern player should be winning it.

The fact of the matter is, the award has changed, as long as Messi and CR are involved. The best players set the bar for the best player award. If you can't be the best performer on your team while winning with that team, you can't compete with them. Next year could see a different winner, there are many potential contenders, only one of them (and their team) needs to step up to break Messi's streak.

Albiceleste wrote:

M99 wrote:These Messi fanboys

Like I said before, Messi does not even need to win the World Cup, just go to the final like Cruyff did or win the Golden Ball instead of scoring 0 goals.

Think about it, would Pele, Maradona and Cruyff be considered the GOATs if they did not turn up in the World Cup?

"Messi fanboys" aren't the ones calling the CL a mini-me trophy, ironically enough it's madrid fans. and there is certainly no bias there either.

Messi doesn't need to prove anything at international level. He has the club credentials that make him the best. Realistically, Messi's performances in the world cup can't hurt him. it wouldn't even matter if he flopped, which would be impossible considering how good he is, unless you have ridiculous standards or are a hater.

Whatever happens in those 7 games, cannot erase what he has done at the club level.

Do you think anyone in Madrid would trade their WC trophy for another 10 CLs?  No they wouldn't.  WC is 1000000000x more important.

Do you think Iker, Iniesta and Xavi are legends in Spain because of their CL trophies?  No.  They are who they are because they won the WC.  Raul was the best club player ever in Spain...  but he's in the category below because he's not part of the WC winning team.

Same goes for Zidane in France.  He's a living god here because of his WC exploits.  His club trophies mean very little to people here.

CL is absolutely a mini-me trophy in terms of importance and prestige compared to the WC.  The WC is the tournament with maximum pressure and the most hurddles....  it separates the men from the boys tbh.

sportsczy wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:

M99 wrote:These Messi fanboys

Like I said before, Messi does not even need to win the World Cup, just go to the final like Cruyff did or win the Golden Ball instead of scoring 0 goals.

Think about it, would Pele, Maradona and Cruyff be considered the GOATs if they did not turn up in the World Cup?

"Messi fanboys" aren't the ones calling the CL a mini-me trophy, ironically enough it's madrid fans. and there is certainly no bias there either.

Messi doesn't need to prove anything at international level. He has the club credentials that make him the best. Realistically, Messi's performances in the world cup can't hurt him. it wouldn't even matter if he flopped, which would be impossible considering how good he is, unless you have ridiculous standards or are a hater.

Whatever happens in those 7 games, cannot erase what he has done at the club level.

Do you think anyone in Madrid would trade their WC trophy for another 10 CLs?  No they wouldn't.  WC is 1000000000x more important.

Do you think Iker, Iniesta and Xavi are legends in Spain because of their CL trophies?  No.  They are who they are because they won the WC.  Raul was the best club player ever in Spain...  but he's in the category below because he's not part of the WC winning team.

Same goes for Zidane in France.  He's a living god here because of his WC exploits.  His club trophies mean very little to people here.

CL is absolutely a mini-me trophy in terms of importance and prestige compared to the WC.  The WC is the tournament with maximum pressure and the most hurddles....  it separates the men from the boys tbh.

I agree. The WC is a unique trophy in it's prestige, however it's not the most difficult nor the most impressive to win, the CL is. Disregarding the fame factor, the CL is a higher level of competition.

Sportczy, do you compare Raul's club career to Messi's club career? Seems you try too hard. But try harder

Messi's club career is way better than Raul's and Zidane. Messi won 3 CL was top scorer in 4 CL scored in 2 finals, won la liga 6 times broke another 137 records and won 4 FIFA ballon Dors. Do you compare these to Raul's career?

Do you think World Cup is the only reason why Raul isnt considered a goat? Maybe Raul was not in Messi level individually? Think twice

And i would not change Messi's 3 CL+6 La Liga + 4 CL top scorer award+ 3 Golden shoe + 4 Fifa ballon dor with only 1 World Cup. Nobody would trade so much club success with only wc trophy. Zidane remembered because of his WC success only because his club success was no where Messi's success. Dont mistake these things

Nivash wrote:In the year CR broke the Liga goalscoring record but doesn't win the league, Messi wins because it's about your contribution to the team's success.
The next year, Cristina is important to Madrid winning the Liga, Messi wins because of his individual exploits.

Ballon D'Or is cool kid accolade.

Messi won the CL and La Liga that year, he was a shoo in.

The year afterward, Messi scored 91 goals, CR didn't win the CL. Another shoo in.

Nivash in the year CR won la liga Messi did these things:

- Was top scorer of La Liga
- Was CL top scorer with record goals
- Broke golden shoe record with 50 goals
- Broke 73 goals record
- Scored 91 goals record

And in the year which Messi won La liga and champions league CR did these things

Was top scorer of La Liga
- nothing
- nothing
- nothing
- nothing

Now tell me how these 2 years are comparable?

Arguing against a fanboy is a waste of time. They aren't prepared to make any concessions. One minute they say winning trophies is not important and the next they quote the player's trophies to make their case.

Forza trophies mentioned when 2 players are in a close level individually. Though Messi doesnt need trophy to be the best but this is the only way to prove another player's fanboy wrong. Because he mentioned trophies and i showed him that even in trophies Messi was better

Forza wrote:One minute they say winning trophies is not important

Who said this?

You can't fabricate things to make up for your weak arguments.

CL is more difficult than WC????

sportsczy wrote:CL is more difficult than WC????  

The level of quality in the CL is much higher, Fact.

sportsczy wrote:CL is more difficult than WC????  

I think the one who said it meant that the overall quality of the CL is superior to the overall WC's.

I agree with you , nothing come close to the WC, either in terms of difficulty or pressure.

every single mistake counts in the Wc and there is no '' better chance next year ''. 75% of the best performers in CL can't produce the same level of football in the WC.

"Oh no, Messi needs to win the World Cup before he is even considered to be the best footballer who has ever lived." I always found that to be a very stupid argument.

Let's say that a player is born in England (as we all know they will never win the WC again ) anyhow, he is born in a country and plays for the country. This country just can't win the WC, but this player is the most crazy, ridiculously good player ever. He dazzles with his jawdropping skills, he scores goals left right and centre, he makes world class defenders look like amateurs. Y'all know where I'm going with this. IMO, its stupid to say Messi will never be, not even considered, to be the best footballer to have walked on planet earth.

I would agree for a player who didn't play for the current NTs of Italy, Spain, Argentina, Germany and Brazil.  These are the 5 elite NTs of the moment and there's no excuse...  This WC defines what Messi is in terms of the history of footy.  He needs to be dominant.  Even then, he can't catch Pele.  But he could get close to Maradonna with WC 2018 being the deciding one for Messi to get himself into the number 2 spot for good.

Brazil was not an elite NT until Pele took it to that level.  They were like Spain before they won the WC:  Very pretty footy, zero trophies.  He made them the greatest as he did with Santos at club level.

Forza wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:

Forza wrote:Which is why it is flawed as an award. Football is a team game. The players who win with their team should get the award. Isn't it unfair that every other player in the world but Messi stands no chance of winning such an award even if their club wins everything and that player is instrumental to the club's success? Snejder won every single trophy he could that year (except the WC, where he was a finalist) and he still wasn't even top 3 in the Ballon D'Or. All Messi had to do was be brilliant in a team that was unsuccessful.

Being instrumental isn't enough, you have to be the star of the team. Sneijder wasn't and other players were arguably just as important if not more so. There are many players that could win the award, but none are stepping up.

Quite frankly, that's crap.

Sneijder was the most important star player for both the Netherlands NT and Inter, no question. Messi performed in a team that won nothing and more than that, he was most definitely nowhere near his best at the WC.

If that is so, then how come it was Milito who was named UEFA club player of the year and Serie A player/foreigner of the year.

And regarding Sneijder's WC performance. He scored lots of goals, but his all around performance was much inferior to that of Messi's. And also, some of Sneijder's goal at the WC were just lucky. A couple of deflection and a own goal that was, weirdly, given to him..

sportsczy wrote:CL is more difficult than WC????  

Even Sir Alex thinks so..

eelir wrote:Based on your logic there is never going to be a goat from say Albania, because they are so small country that they can never have a team that does something worthy, even though they theoretically can have the best player that ever played the game? I mean how many times in player's career a WC happens?

sportsczy wrote:I would agree for a player who didn't play for the current NTs of Italy, Spain, Argentina, Germany and Brazil.  These are the 5 elite NTs of the moment and there's no excuse...  This WC defines what Messi is in terms of the history of footy.  He needs to be dominant.  Even then, he can't catch Pele.  But he could get close to Maradonna with WC 2018 being the deciding one for Messi to get himself into the number 2 spot for good.

Brazil was not an elite NT until Pele took it to that level.  They were like Spain before they won the WC:  Very pretty footy, zero trophies.  He made them the greatest as he did with Santos at club level.

This is the point - nobody would expect it from an Albanian or even Welsh player, but if you look at for example players from the "big football countries", they will only be considered "complete" if they win the WorldCup.

Albiceleste wrote:Being instrumental isn't enough, you have to be the star of the team. Sneijder wasn't and other players were arguably just as important if not more so. There are many players that could win the award, but none are stepping up.

And that's where fame comes in again.

Badamdar wrote:If Sneijder was individually goat player then he would have 90 million price tag. But instead he plays in Galatasaray

And Pele and Beckenbauer played for Cosmos in the USofA at the end of their careers. Does that make them less GOAT?

Forza wrote:And more importantly, leaving Cannavaro off that list because he is not a spectacular attacking player is very disappointing from you. No doubt he deserved to win. And more defenders should win it. Although that throws up the question of how do you compare a defender to a striker? Impossible IMO.

Yeah, nowadays you are only considered GOAT if you are best at stats padding with scoring goals. A goalkeeper who plays in one of the big leagues and is the only one in his country (that has lots of outstanding GKs) with more than 100 matches who got less goals in than he played matches is not even considered to be a GOAT player.

Albiceleste wrote:The fact of the matter is, the award has changed, as long as Messi and CR are involved. The best players set the bar for the best player award. If you can't be the best performer on your team while winning with that team, you can't compete with them. Next year could see a different winner, there are many potential contenders, only one of them (and their team) needs to step up to break Messi's streak.

Well, the award has changes in the way that only stats padding attackers can win it and GKs and defenders are completely ignored, no matter how good they are individually. What about a player like Philipp Lahm, for example?

sportsczy wrote:Same goes for Zidane in France.  He's a living god here because of his WC exploits.  His club trophies mean very little to people here.

It's similar in Germany. The World Cup winners of 1954, 1974 and 1990 are still absolute heroes in the country. Bayern's triple winners are only heroes for Bayern München fans. To become real national icons they would have to win the World Cup, which is why all German players are craving to get their hand at that trophy.

Albiceleste wrote:I agree. The WC is a unique trophy in it's prestige, however it's not the most difficult nor the most impressive to win, the CL is. Disregarding the fame factor, the CL is a higher level of competition.

Umm, tell that to England who try to win it again since 1966

Same why i don't understand people give pele credit for his 62 WC, same goes for Ronaldo in 94 and Messi's CL in 2006... they didn't play a role..

sportsczy wrote:R9 is a goat tier lol.  Only reason he's not considered a candidate for top goat is because he was injured so many years so he wasn't dominant for long enough.  His overall stats aren't at a high enough level compared to Pele for example.

To be goat you need to win the WC and have goat-level stats.  Not just one or the other.

You're competing against guys who have both.

This doesnt make sense to me...
"R9 is goat tier"
"R9 isn't goat contender because he lacks this, and that, and this, etc."
...lol

sportsczy wrote:regional tournaments  La Liga and CL are regional tournaments too genius if you consider Libertadores and Brazilian leagues as such

Anyhow, i'm ending this discussion with you Harmonica because everyone knows you're a clown and its a waste of braincells to get into this stuff with you.

Actually he's right..

Also sportscy, european teams never even took those games serious (intercontinental cup and such)... please. Get your damn head outta your ***

Did you watch Messi in the groupstages and the games vs Chelsea in Round 16 before he got injured!
He played a major role in these games! #UCL2006

RonaldoGreatestEverRM wrote:Same why i don't understand people give pele credit for his 62 WC, same goes for Ronaldo in 94 and Messi's CL in 2006... they didn't play a role..

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpmtk6_lionel-messi-vs-chelsea-2006_sport