Re: Higuain: I suffered at Real Madrid (Oh, and Gomez suffered at Bayern, too)

by Pip Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:42 am

Arquitescu wrote:Gomez choked within that span of year yet people forget how many goals his contributed in other big games vs big teams, especially in moments of great danger to Bayern's CL/BuLi status within the games.

It's funny that you say how he contributed in "big games against big teams" because in the 2011/2012 BL campaign, Gómez did not score against any of the teams in the top five. Considering how Bayern are the giant of the Bundesliga, to have their star striker not scoring once against those teams is quite horrendous, and seeing how one-dimensional he is, if he is not scoring, he is not helping. That is evidenced by his average 4.0 rating against BMG, average 4.75 rating against BVB, average 4.5 rating against S04, and average 4.5 rating against B04. He wasn't anything special in the Champions League, either. Apart from his 3 goals against SSC Napoli, I can't think of any performance that was great. His four goals against Basel were a piss-take. He had a brace against Manchester City as well, but Bayern never were in a danger moment in the Champions League apart from the semi-final and final, where Gómez flopped.

It's the exact same in the Bundesliga as well. Five of Bayern's six losses in the 2011/2012 season came against teams in the Bundesliga top five, all of whom Gómez failed to score against. He never provided another actual dimension in those matches, either. Gómez flopped in the DFB-Pokal as well, against BMG and BVB.

Arquitescu wrote:His failures have been exaggerated as he remains Germany's #1 CF and Bayern fans mourn his loss.

Gómez is not the number one central forward for Germany, though. The last match he had started was against France in February, where he was horrendous. Miroslav Klose has been starting the majority of the recent matches, and he is a much better fit for Germany than Gómez is. And no, they really don't. Gómez was a cult player who had his own fans and detractors. The vast majority of Bayern fans are fickle; they complain when Gómez is poor, yet cheer when he is on form. It didn't help when he was on a €10m wage per annum. The same Bayern fans who turn against Robben are cheering for him again. During the Ribéry transfer saga, there were plenty of fans that wanted him to leave for a large fee. Nowadays, Ribéry is hailed as the King of München. You talk about understanding the "general sentiment" of these Bayern fans regarding the transfer, but how did you do this? Did you survey many of them, or what?

With Gómez as the main striker, Bayern never achieved anything. When Mandzukic arrived and added a new dimension, Bayern were dominant. You do not need to have a clinical finisher at Bayern, as evidenced by Mandzukic's success at the club. Any striker can finish a minority of his chances and still score at least 20 goals, as evidenced by Mandzukic's tally. If there was an elite finisher at Bayern along the lines of Falcao or Robin van Persie, they would be easily able to breach 30 goals in the Bundesliga in my opinion. Roy Makaay would have been able to score 50 in all competitions, I think.

by Grooverider Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:57 am

jibers wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:
jibers wrote:No they don't

I've got a mate that actually lives in Bavaria ffs, he said most fans don't care because Gomez wasn't a good footballer! He lives 45 minutes away from allianz, I'll take his word over yours thanks.
Yes cause his Bavarian roots and distance from the Allianz Arena equals to directly proportional credibility representing all Bayern fans.

I think all your height is slowing down the blood to your brain.

No but if he is watching them every week live when they play he would have a general sense of the feelings fans have. He has more credibility than you

And you are basing your assumptions that Bayern fans miss him on what? Please don't even bother creating some elaborate story where your half cousin is German or lie ypu are 1/8th German or some BS. The reason you are giving Gomez metaphorical fellatio is because he is half spanish.

Epic Brain Fart.

by Casciavit Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:46 am

Pippo wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:Gomez choked within that span of year yet people forget how many goals his contributed in other big games vs big teams, especially in moments of great danger to Bayern's CL/BuLi status within the games.
It's funny that you say how he contributed in "big games against big teams" because in the 2011/2012 BL campaign, Gómez did not score against any of the teams in the top five. Considering how Bayern are the giant of the Bundesliga, to have their star striker not scoring once against those teams is quite horrendous, and seeing how one-dimensional he is, if he is not scoring, he is not helping. That is evidenced by his average 4.0 rating against BMG, average 4.75 rating against BVB, average 4.5 rating against S04, and average 4.5 rating against B04. He wasn't anything special in the Champions League, either. Apart from his 3 goals against SSC Napoli, I can't think of any performance that was great. His four goals against Basel were a piss-take. He had a brace against Manchester City as well, but Bayern never were in a danger moment in the Champions League apart from the semi-final and final, where Gómez flopped.

It's the exact same in the Bundesliga as well. Five of Bayern's six losses in the 2011/2012 season came against teams in the Bundesliga top five, all of whom Gómez failed to score against. He never provided another actual dimension in those matches, either. Gómez flopped in the DFB-Pokal as well, against BMG and BVB.
Arquitescu wrote:His failures have been exaggerated as he remains Germany's #1 CF and Bayern fans mourn his loss.
Gómez is not the number one central forward for Germany, though. The last match he had started was against France in February, where he was horrendous. Miroslav Klose has been starting the majority of the recent matches, and he is a much better fit for Germany than Gómez is. And no, they really don't. Gómez was a cult player who had his own fans and detractors. The vast majority of Bayern fans are fickle; they complain when Gómez is poor, yet cheer when he is on form. It didn't help when he was on a €10m wage per annum. The same Bayern fans who turn against Robben are cheering for him again. During the Ribéry transfer saga, there were plenty of fans that wanted him to leave for a large fee. Nowadays, Ribéry is hailed as the King of München. You talk about understanding the "general sentiment" of these Bayern fans regarding the transfer, but how did you do this? Did you survey many of them, or what?

With Gómez as the main striker, Bayern never achieved anything. When Mandzukic arrived and added a new dimension, Bayern were dominant. You do not need to have a clinical finisher at Bayern, as evidenced by Mandzukic's success at the club. Any striker can finish a minority of his chances and still score at least 20 goals, as evidenced by Mandzukic's tally. If there was an elite finisher at Bayern along the lines of Falcao or Robin van Persie, they would be easily able to breach 30 goals in the Bundesliga in my opinion. Roy Makaay would have been able to score 50 in all competitions, I think.

Great post.

by Arquitecto Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:49 pm

Pippo wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:Gomez choked within that span of year yet people forget how many goals his contributed in other big games vs big teams, especially in moments of great danger to Bayern's CL/BuLi status within the games.
It's funny that you say how he contributed in "big games against big teams" because in the 2011/2012 BL campaign, Gómez did not score against any of the teams in the top five. Considering how Bayern are the giant of the Bundesliga, to have their star striker not scoring once against those teams is quite horrendous, and seeing how one-dimensional he is, if he is not scoring, he is not helping. That is evidenced by his average 4.0 rating against BMG, average 4.75 rating against BVB, average 4.5 rating against S04, and average 4.5 rating against B04. He wasn't anything special in the Champions League, either. Apart from his 3 goals against SSC Napoli, I can't think of any performance that was great. His four goals against Basel were a piss-take. He had a brace against Manchester City as well, but Bayern never were in a danger moment in the Champions League apart from the semi-final and final, where Gómez flopped.

It's the exact same in the Bundesliga as well. Five of Bayern's six losses in the 2011/2012 season came against teams in the Bundesliga top five, all of whom Gómez failed to score against. He never provided another actual dimension in those matches, either. Gómez flopped in the DFB-Pokal as well, against BMG and BVB.
Arquitescu wrote:His failures have been exaggerated as he remains Germany's #1 CF and Bayern fans mourn his loss.
Gómez is not the number one central forward for Germany, though. The last match he had started was against France in February, where he was horrendous. Miroslav Klose has been starting the majority of the recent matches, and he is a much better fit for Germany than Gómez is. And no, they really don't. Gómez was a cult player who had his own fans and detractors. The vast majority of Bayern fans are fickle; they complain when Gómez is poor, yet cheer when he is on form. It didn't help when he was on a €10m wage per annum. The same Bayern fans who turn against Robben are cheering for him again. During the Ribéry transfer saga, there were plenty of fans that wanted him to leave for a large fee. Nowadays, Ribéry is hailed as the King of München. You talk about understanding the "general sentiment" of these Bayern fans regarding the transfer, but how did you do this? Did you survey many of them, or what?

With Gómez as the main striker, Bayern never achieved anything. When Mandzukic arrived and added a new dimension, Bayern were dominant. You do not need to have a clinical finisher at Bayern, as evidenced by Mandzukic's success at the club. Any striker can finish a minority of his chances and still score at least 20 goals, as evidenced by Mandzukic's tally. If there was an elite finisher at Bayern along the lines of Falcao or Robin van Persie, they would be easily able to breach 30 goals in the Bundesliga in my opinion. Roy Makaay would have been able to score 50 in all competitions, I think.

Wonderful job cherry-picking just one year out of his 4 years in Bayern to prove he hasn't contributed in big games. Examples come to mind? Leverkusen hatrick in 2010-11, goals vs Schalke, BMG, Inter, 2010-11's strong Top 5 Mainz & Hannover.

Next season? Real Madrid, destroying Napoli, Manchester City, and also scoring in important moments within the Bundesliga itself.
You speak of providing another dimension, which is rather silly considering his tactical role is to seek out goals & provide hold-up play, to which he performed very well in his days in Bavaria. Your opinion typical of those who underrate poachers cause "they only score goals" despite scoring them on a consistent basis, leading the line, scoring with both feet, providing aerial threats, uncanny positioning, instinct (all Gomez).

You thought to present these nonsensical ratings doesn't reinforce your debate in any sense either.

Germany? Considering he was injured from August to December while not providing recovery enough to warrant him a start for the NT, it doesn't reflect upon his chances to start for Germany considering Klose was in absolute horrible form for Germany until recently.

No survey was taken, yet if you travel in between and back to München enough times and converse with the most staunch of Bayern fans, you get to comprehend the cumulative sentiment they hold for a certain player and his transfer, despite the obvious exceptions, to which pertain to your debate.

Yes, Bayern fans are fickle, which is why when Robben was performing under Van Gaal and Ribery was below-par, they wanted him out. Same goes for Mueller to be benched during his poor run of form, as well as the doubt shrouding over Toni Kroos when he was merely a static representation of talent.

Doesn't take away from his ridiculous efficiency in front of goal, Bundesliga's top-scorer in 2010-11, efficient rate for Germany and just being better than Mandzukic.

Speaking of Mandzukic; considering you spew a logical fallacy of how anyone would score even more in Bayern, despite that use of debate being an utter myth. Mandzu only managed 22 goals in 42 games last year, despite the importance of some of his better goals. Gomez in far less minutes score 19 in 32 and taught him a few lessons in how to finish chances when Mandzu was subbed off for him. The rest of your debate based on opinion isn't relevant.

I'm done debating about a player whom I don't really care about. I'll let the Germans/BuLi watchers on this forum further attest to his excellence in Bayern. They'll do a better job as it is.

by Pip Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:34 pm

Arquitescu wrote:Wonderful job cherry-picking just one year out of his 4 years in Bayern to prove he hasn't contributed in big games. Examples come to mind? Leverkusen hatrick in 2010-11, goals vs Schalke, BMG, Inter, 2010-11's strong Top 5 Mainz & Hannover.

Next season? Real Madrid, destroying Napoli, Manchester City, and also scoring in important moments within the Bundesliga itself.

I am not "cherry-picking" just one year. I was referring to the first line of your post that I quoted, where you stated: "Gomez choked within that span of year yet people forget how many goals he contributed in other big games vs big teams..." -- so if you read the post from a different point of view, it looks like you are only talking about "that span of year". And that is the reason why I only referred to his performances from that year. It is not my fault that you left your post very open to interpretation.

Arquitescu wrote:You speak of providing another dimension, which is rather silly considering his tactical role is to seek out goals & provide hold-up play, to which he performed very well in his days in Bavaria. Your opinion typical of those who underrate poachers cause "they only score goals" despite scoring them on a consistent basis, leading the line, scoring with both feet, providing aerial threats, uncanny positioning, instinct (all Gomez).

I said that Mario Mandzukic provided another dimension, which was his stronger hold-up play and his ability to link more successfully with Ribéry and Müller. Gómez is the type of player where if he was not scoring, he would provide very little to no support. He was a relatively consistent goal scorer in the Bundesliga, but he was a demi-god against weaker teams but poor against better teams. He scored 21 of his 26 Bundesliga goals against the bottom half of the Bundesliga, but these are the sort of teams that Bayern can defeat just on talent alone. The only loss Bayern had against a team that was not in the top five was Mainz, who have always been a thorn in Bayern's side until the 2012/2013 season. Gómez was particularly terrible in that match. I can respect poachers who can score when their teams need them the most, and Gómez simply is not one of them. It took him three or four chances to finally score against Real Madrid. When the team needed him to score (Champions League final, Pokal final, EURO semi-final), he did not score. Hoeneß was right when he said that Gómez is good, but not great.

Arquitescu wrote:You thought to present these nonsensical ratings doesn't reinforce your debate in any sense either.

They are not "nonsensical ratings". Kicker are a well-respected football newspaper and their ratings are almost always down to a tee. It simply shows that Gómez was poor in those matches, and there is a relatively objective source backing up that claim. Unless you can prove otherwise, I am adamant that Gómez had bad performances, because I would rather not watch those matches again.

Arquitescu wrote:Germany? Considering he was injured from August to December while not providing recovery enough to warrant him a start for the NT, it doesn't reflect upon his chances to start for Germany considering Klose was in absolute horrible form for Germany until recently.

He was not injured until December, because he played in November. How "recently" was Klose's absolutely horrible form to you? He was good in the October 2012 series of qualifiers, and he has played to a decent level in the September 2013 qualifiers. I assume you are judging him on performances in the international friendly matches then, right?

Arquitescu wrote:No survey was taken, yet if you travel in between and back to München enough times and converse with the most staunch of Bayern fans, you get to comprehend the cumulative sentiment they hold for a certain player and his transfer, despite the obvious exceptions, to which pertain to your debate.

I have lived in München for a period of my life. I know what many people think of Gómez, yet I would never try to extrapolate my findings from my own personal experiences to say that the "general sentiment from Bayern fans" is of disappointment -- that is just anecdotal conjecture. Scholl was very right when he said that Gómez needs to work harder for the team, because it is due to the hard offensive work of his teammates that he is given so many opportunities to score. Gómez is weak, clumsy, and lazy. From my experiences, I have seen many of the older generation of Bayern supporters rating Carsten Jancker highly. He was never a great footballer, but he was so committed to the cause and he always put in a shift. Gómez is nothing like that.

Arquitescu wrote:Doesn't take away from his ridiculous efficiency in front of goal, Bundesliga's top-scorer in 2010-11, efficient rate for Germany and just being better than Mandzukic.

He is a top goal scorer, but he is not the best player for the team. Individually, he is better than Mandzukic, but Mandzukic is definitely a better team player and one who plays for the team, not for himself.

Arquitescu wrote:Speaking of Mandzukic; considering you spew a logical fallacy of how anyone would score even more in Bayern, despite that use of debate being an utter myth. Mandzu only managed 22 goals in 42 games last year, despite the importance of some of his better goals. Gomez in far less minutes score 19 in 32 and taught him a few lessons in how to finish chances when Mandzu was subbed off for him. The rest of your debate based on opinion isn't relevant.

Do not attempt to sweep away my arguments stating that I am committing logical fallacies, when I am not. I did not say that anyone would score even more at Bayern München apart from elite goal scorers, which is very reasonable. Gómez was able to "teach Mandzukic a few lessons" when he was given his chances out of pity. Mandzukic usurped Gómez, and in hindsight what made it funnier to me was his arrogant comment in November 2012 when he said "There's always this talk that I'm not able to compete but I've been competing for eight years with very good strikers and have managed to come out on top", during Mandzukic's dry spell. Yet Mandzukic pushed him out of the team, and it was for the greater good.

by jibers Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:41 pm

Pippo wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:Wonderful job cherry-picking just one year out of his 4 years in Bayern to prove he hasn't contributed in big games. Examples come to mind? Leverkusen hatrick in 2010-11, goals vs Schalke, BMG, Inter, 2010-11's strong Top 5 Mainz & Hannover.

Next season? Real Madrid, destroying Napoli, Manchester City, and also scoring in important moments within the Bundesliga itself.
I am not "cherry-picking" just one year. I was referring to the first line of your post that I quoted, where you stated: "Gomez choked within that span of year yet people forget how many goals he contributed in other big games vs big teams..." -- so if you read the post from a different point of view, it looks like you are only talking about "that span of year". And that is the reason why I only referred to his performances from that year. It is not my fault that you left your post very open to interpretation.
Arquitescu wrote:You speak of providing another dimension, which is rather silly considering his tactical role is to seek out goals & provide hold-up play, to which he performed very well in his days in Bavaria. Your opinion typical of those who underrate poachers cause "they only score goals" despite scoring them on a consistent basis, leading the line, scoring with both feet, providing aerial threats, uncanny positioning, instinct (all Gomez).
I said that Mario Mandzukic provided another dimension, which was his stronger hold-up play and his ability to link more successfully with Ribéry and Müller. Gómez is the type of player where if he was not scoring, he would provide very little to no support. He was a relatively consistent goal scorer in the Bundesliga, but he was a demi-god against weaker teams but poor against better teams. He scored 21 of his 26 Bundesliga goals against the bottom half of the Bundesliga, but these are the sort of teams that Bayern can defeat just on talent alone. The only loss Bayern had against a team that was not in the top five was Mainz, who have always been a thorn in Bayern's side until the 2012/2013 season. Gómez was particularly terrible in that match. I can respect poachers who can score when their teams need them the most, and Gómez simply is not one of them. It took him three or four chances to finally score against Real Madrid. When the team needed him to score (Champions League final, Pokal final, EURO semi-final), he did not score. Hoeneß was right when he said that Gómez is good, but not great.
Arquitescu wrote:You thought to present these nonsensical ratings doesn't reinforce your debate in any sense either.
They are not "nonsensical ratings". Kicker are a well-respected football newspaper and their ratings are almost always down to a tee. It simply shows that Gómez was poor in those matches, and there is a relatively objective source backing up that claim. Unless you can prove otherwise, I am adamant that Gómez had bad performances, because I would rather not watch those matches again.
Arquitescu wrote:Germany? Considering he was injured from August to December while not providing recovery enough to warrant him a start for the NT, it doesn't reflect upon his chances to start for Germany considering Klose was in absolute horrible form for Germany until recently.
He was not injured until December, because he played in November. How "recently" was Klose's absolutely horrible form to you? He was good in the October 2012 series of qualifiers, and he has played to a decent level in the September 2013 qualifiers. I assume you are judging him on performances in the international friendly matches then, right?
Arquitescu wrote:No survey was taken, yet if you travel in between and back to München enough times and converse with the most staunch of Bayern fans, you get to comprehend the cumulative sentiment they hold for a certain player and his transfer, despite the obvious exceptions, to which pertain to your debate.
I have lived in München for a period of my life. I know what many people think of Gómez, yet I would never try to extrapolate my findings from my own personal experiences to say that the "general sentiment from Bayern fans" is of disappointment -- that is just anecdotal conjecture. Scholl was very right when he said that Gómez needs to work harder for the team, because it is due to the hard offensive work of his teammates that he is given so many opportunities to score. Gómez is weak, clumsy, and lazy. From my experiences, I have seen many of the older generation of Bayern supporters rating Carsten Jancker highly. He was never a great footballer, but he was so committed to the cause and he always put in a shift. Gómez is nothing like that.
Arquitescu wrote:Doesn't take away from his ridiculous efficiency in front of goal, Bundesliga's top-scorer in 2010-11, efficient rate for Germany and just being better than Mandzukic.
He is a top goal scorer, but he is not the best player for the team. Individually, he is better than Mandzukic, but Mandzukic is definitely a better team player and one who plays for the team, not for himself.
Arquitescu wrote:Speaking of Mandzukic; considering you spew a logical fallacy of how anyone would score even more in Bayern, despite that use of debate being an utter myth. Mandzu only managed 22 goals in 42 games last year, despite the importance of some of his better goals. Gomez in far less minutes score 19 in 32 and taught him a few lessons in how to finish chances when Mandzu was subbed off for him. The rest of your debate based on opinion isn't relevant.
Do not attempt to sweep away my arguments stating that I am committing logical fallacies, when I am not. I did not say that anyone would score even more at Bayern München apart from elite goal scorers, which is very reasonable. Gómez was able to "teach Mandzukic a few lessons" when he was given his chances out of pity. Mandzukic usurped Gómez, and in hindsight what made it funnier to me was his arrogant comment in November 2012 when he said "There's always this talk that I'm not able to compete but I've been competing for eight years with very good strikers and have managed to come out on top", during Mandzukic's dry spell. Yet Mandzukic pushed him out of the team, and it was for the greater good.

Higuain: I suffered at Real Madrid (Oh, and Gomez suffered at Bayern, too) - Page 3 2642183-slow_clap_gif

by Arquitecto Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:29 pm

Pippo, in order to avoid a Bhends-Arquitecto debate to which can rage on for a week, I'll narrow down our debate to my final points, despite stating I would not partake in this debate any longer:

-Kicker is indeed a respected source, yet their ratings have been a mark of criticism from others and from me in the past. Like Gazzeta of Italia, I seldom agree with their near warped ratings of players which usually stems from pure statistical inference and rather one-tracked observation. Their ratings won't provide a difference to my opinion.

-As for Klose, my judgement was only based on International form, to answer your question. I will not comment on his club form, to which was hindered by his injuries within Lazio.

-You present an interesting point on the Bayern fans as I learned each generation seem to have their own interpretation of their teams/players and the inference method on how to rate them. Quite frankly, along with Hamburg I found the Bayern fans quite a uniform bunch as throughout my time in München and absorbing many Bayern fans view, you can indeed form a semblance of the general perspective of a certain player, ideology and opinion to which their fanbase (in München) holds. Especially when it comes to deducting the regular Allianz Arena followers. This is not to counter-act your point, but to present a general point of view to which I learned in an extensive period of time there.

-I do not agree that Gomez' appearances were out of sympathy considering his injuries were the only deduction of his bench to recovery time. This point was fostered from when Mandzu struggled to finish, Gomez last season provided a more acute finishing prowess to provide contrast of threat between him and Mandzu. In general, it is of my opinion that you underrate Mario Gomez. While you provide semblance of objective reasoning behind your perspective of Gomez, I cannot agree with them.

-However, I do agree with you that Gomez is quite selfish, despite being underrated in his link-up play in Bayern. Bayern fans I met debated this by embracing his selfish behaviour in his ruthless desire to score goals to which an indirect team like Bayern needed. Others criticized his lackadaisical behaviour to which was in stark contrast to Mandzukic, to which is why I agree on how the latter came to start ahead of the German, despite him capitalizing on Gomez' injury. You bringing those perspectives can be counter-acted by perceptions of Beckenbauer, Breitner, Mueller(Gerd) on Gomez yet that would provide insufficient. However I can understand how you have come to find distaste on Gomez more through his attitude rather than his performances. Your opinion represented the exceptions I met in München, who held firm on their dislike of his attitude.

The rest has little to discuss about.

by Albiceleste Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:47 pm

jibers wrote:

by Gil Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:59 pm

Thread blew up

Higuain: I suffered at Real Madrid (Oh, and Gomez suffered at Bayern, too) - Page 3 Smooth-russian-kid

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