Re: GOAT defensive midfielders?

by Lupi Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:25 am

Danielino De Rossi Proud

by Forza Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:07 am

M99 wrote:
futbol wrote:
Defensive midfield partnerships would be more interesting by the way. Is there anything that trumps Busquets-Alonso?
Rijkaard-Anceolotti

Rijkaard-Ancelotti Coach: Sacchi
Desailly-Albertini Coach: Capello
Gattuso - Pirlo Coach: Ancelotti

All of them.

by Pip Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:00 am

Makélélé is vastly overrated, ranging from his time at Real Madrid to Chelsea. I would never say someone as limited as him could stake a claim as one of the best defensive midfielders of the past 20 years. This entire "Makélélé-role" mantra is simply the manifestation of British football media bias.

1. Rijkaard
2. Redondo
3. Dunga
4. Mauro Silva
5. Busquets

by Valkyrja Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:55 am

Makelele is overrated, but you have Busquets over the likes of Davids, Keane, Pirri or Gatusso, Ok

by jibers Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:06 am

Valkyrja wrote:Makelele is overrated, but you have Busquets over the likes of Davids, Keane, Pirri or Gatusso, Ok

Keane wasn't a dm, David's wasn't a dm, pirri wasn't a dm...gatusso was. Ball winner that never sat in the anchor role.

by Pip Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:12 am

Valkyrja wrote:Makelele is overrated, but you have Busquets over the likes of Davids, Keane, Pirri or Gatusso, Ok

Davids and Keane were not defensive midfielders. I don't see how Pirri is relevant to my post. Busquets is simply better than Gattuso.

by Casciavit Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:24 am

Valkyrja wrote:Makelele is overrated, but you have Busquets over the likes of Davids, Keane, Pirri or Gatusso, Ok

None of those guys are DM's and Gattuso was never played in front of the defence. The guy was meh on the ball and him being played in front of the defence would have been a disaster Laughing

, He played as a RCM in a 4-3-2-1/4-3-1-2.

Busquets is very good and I don't see much wrong by placing him 5th, in the top 5 DM's of all time. Obviously you can't see his qualities because you're clueless lol. And it's quite obvious you don't rate him at all since you're a Madrid fanboy Laughing

As for who's the best DM, Rijkaard. Best DM partnership, Ancelotti and Rijkaard.

by Dante Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:24 pm

There are 3 types of DMfs. Some coaches preffer protection traits before playmaking there , some others preffer playmaking traits before protection there. Still , the position on paper & on the field remains that of the last midfielder , the defensive midfielder who must play deeper than the other midfielders . The Role of it though , depends on the footballer who will fill that spot and in which aspects of the game he excells at . We still have to categorise these players because it still hasn't been the norm what kind of DMF player should be playing there at all times . Maybe it will never settle for good , simply because the use of a good system and a good partnership in the midfield can compensate for each option . The 4-2-3-1 though seems to offer the answer to that , with regards to the coach having the option to deploy both kind of players in the same area , albeit then you absolutely need a good partnership between the two players.

There's the absolute destroyer , the one who's clearly good at all things defense before anything and in most cases be limited with the use of the ball or lack in vision and overall skill , mostly because the emphasis to improve and excell lies at the defensive side of the game and that takes it's toll in technique and overall quality on the ball. There goes the likes of Makelele or Gattuso , Keane e.t.c . Their position didn't have to be in front of the defense , but their role always was the same. Gattuso for example he has always been a pure DMF and for some years he was even better than Makelele(though when Makelele was in his last years) , but he almost never played as the last midfielder because he sucked with the ball and was suspect at best with it under pressure or tasked to deliver it through complicated paths on the field.

Then there are fake dmfs like i personally call them , who may play as the last midfielder and still possess defensive traits and all , although in most cases they can even prove a burden with their lack of skill in defending , but they excell with the ball and everything that goes with. Most of the times their role is simply the deep lying playmaker role and they have to occupy the DM position . Despite their special role or how good their overall defensive quality may be , they have to defend and protect the defence as well . There goes players like Busquets , Redondo , Albertini e.t.c

Then there's a 3rd type , Frank Rijkaard. A combination of the two and more . There's simply no contest , especially when we check how good he was tacticaly and how cool and comfortable he was everwhere on the field , not just within his area. One of the few complete players who reached such a high level , both for Ajax and Milan as well as for Holland too. Legendary .

Makelele was a pure defensive midfielder , but never reached F.Rijkaard's quality as a player . And even though he had a good jump to catch a header , he was short for that particular position , something which i find as distinctive disadvantage to have there. Because as the last midfielder , often one must claim the ball in the air or make clearances in the air , no matter his role in the pitch.. Makelele could never reach Rijkaard there and it's very important for the position , doesn't matter which type of player fills the last midfielder position.

As far as only defensive quality goes... idk , but i think , it still is Rijkaard , even though he didn't have the explosiveness or the tackling modern dmfs had. Nevertheless he was a sublime ball winner and that was too often ; something which is trully phenomenal for a player who had quality in abundance on the ball and general offensive play. Absolutely rare player and very few can compare to him , i'd say Makelele is half the player Frank Rijkaard was.

by Forza Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:19 pm

Busquets is a quality player, but he will never be a favourite of mine due to his pathetic play-acting. Conversely, Gattuso, whilst not being as technically good with the ball (but having other advantages over Busquets) is a player who commands respect because he played with tenacity, spirit and integrity. That is what differentiates a great player from a legendary player. Some people will come along and try to write Gattuso out of the history books because he was an "unsophisticated", no-nonsense hard man, but the fact is that in his prime he was one of the most effective players to ever play DM and nobody can deny him that. He is the Inzaghi of DM's - not the most complete player, but a player who could play his role in the team reliably and to an exceptionally high standard.

Edit: Yes he did play in the RCM position, but his role was still that of a defensive midfielder. The only reasons he wasn't playing in front of the defence is 1) to accommodate the regista, Pirlo; and 2) because in his prime he had a huge engine which would be wasted sitting in front of the defence.

Kaka/Rui Costa
Seedorf ---- Gattuso
Pirlo

what a GOAT midfield

by El Jefe Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:13 pm

I don't understand how Busquets is a fake defensive midfielder. That is a load of rubbish. Lack of defensive skill? No chance.

by The Franchise Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:28 pm

Busquets play-acting is so terrible but Gattuso trying to fight a 60 year old man is alright? He is the man of integrity?

by CBarca Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:42 pm

Play acting separating a great player from a legendary one? I don't think so.

Not sure how diving or play acting plays into the quality of a player, anyway. It's a dent in their history sure (Suarez will forever be known as "that guy that bit people", at least partially), but just because Busquets play acted in his past doesn't make him any less of a brilliant player. Haven't seen him play act in a long time as well.

Dani brings up a good point regarding that specific comparison.

by Dante Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:16 pm

El Jefe wrote:I don't understand how Busquets is a fake defensive midfielder. That is a load of rubbish. Lack of defensive skill? No chance.

Look , sure guy. I don't write stuff just for the sake of it. I specifically mentioned , in most cases . I never said Busquests is bad as DMF , or lacks in defensive skill . But since this post wasn't meant about Busquets and was about the very best , compared to other DMFs such as Rijkaard or Makelele , there he lacks in defensive skill , in comparison. In any case, i actually rate Busquets to the death , he's one of my favourite . But when we talk about all of them and try to find as best as possible an answer , then looking at the whole picture Sergio isn't up there with the best ball winners or tacklers or that commanding in the air and in general lines , his destructive side clearly does not overshine his creative side.

And once again , i also specifically mentioned I personally call them fake . I understand very well there's nothing fake with what they do . But these players aren't your typical DMF ala De Jong , for instance. They play in that position for other reasons , in fact for the complete opposite reasons than pure DMfs usually do. Not to help destroy and protect , but to help create and attack. Obviously they will have to do both , but they are different than the norm DMFs and i call them , again that's just a me thing , fake . Like false 9s play where they play because they offer something different to the classic 9 , something similar i value in this case as well. It was not meant to be taken literally or as a standard , lol

Anyway , probably i didn't actually word that post right . I should have been more specific , obviously. In any case , no i don't literally consider Busquets anything fake , just not the typical version of DM. He's not at all bad in his defensive duties but for many reasons i doubt he will ever reach the defensive quality that Rijkaard or some really tough ball winners had. He has a far better creative side than a destructive one and besides , i doubt how much freedom Barcelona's system actually lets him show or be all he can , with regards to the defensive duties of the position.

by Dante Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:37 pm

As for Gattuso , clearly he wasn't a saint . He did a lot of nasty stuff throughout his carreer. But i think Forza spoke about other things when he talked about integrity , such as when he actually apologised to him and felt ashamed(or at least something amongs these lines ) . Many more about his attitude , his mentality and his ethics in general .

That being said , i am not going to defend all the bs he has done on the field , we're never going to see the end of it Laughing

.. As for Busquets play acting , many do that and many really great players used to that. And in any case , many great players have done shamefull stuff throughout their careers , so i think this is not just Busquets or Gattuso thing.

Just like Gattuso used to pull one's hair and hoped the opponent bites and does something in order to get penalised , Busquets will fall in agony for the same purpose. Either way these are hilarious stuff when done right , lmfao

Having said this , i do not condone either kind of behaviour , honestly , but i have to admit in a few cases , you can't but have a laugh at the attempts Laughing

I don't know where Busquets will be when ends his career but i will certainly not hold this against him. His game is simply great to watch and that counts before anything . Nobody is or ever was perfect.

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:53 pm

Luis Monti started in 2 WC finals. Very few other DMs can match this.

Although since this is the "greatest" thread and not the "best", it should go to the DM with the most amount of titles: Cambiasso. He has 20 club titles throughout his career.

by The Franchise Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:01 pm

I dont care about what Gattuso does in terms of that incident with Joe Jordan, shit happens, whatever. All I care about is his football, and I have very little issue with him with that. He has some limits, but I liked his game for the most part.

Just dont think the comments on Busquets were very fair at all, not in comparison to the glowing reference Gattuso was given.

by jibers Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:34 pm

Dani do you love me?

by The Franchise Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:37 pm

This aint chat bro.

by El Jefe Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:48 pm

Dante wrote:
El Jefe wrote:I don't understand how Busquets is a fake defensive midfielder. That is a load of rubbish. Lack of defensive skill? No chance.
Look , sure guy. I don't write stuff just for the sake of it. I specifically mentioned , in most cases . I never said Busquests is bad as DMF , or lacks in defensive skill . But since this post wasn't meant about Busquets and was about the very best , compared to other DMFs such as Rijkaard or Makelele , there he lacks in defensive skill , in comparison. In any case, i actually rate Busquets to the death , he's one of my favourite . But when we talk about all of them and try to find as best as possible an answer , then looking at the whole picture Sergio isn't up there with the best ball winners or tacklers or that commanding in the air and in general lines , his destructive side clearly does not overshine his creative side.

And once again , i also specifically mentioned I personally call them fake . I understand very well there's nothing fake with what they do . But these players aren't your typical DMF ala De Jong , for instance. They play in that position for other reasons , in fact for the complete opposite reasons than pure DMfs usually do. Not to help destroy and protect , but to help create and attack. Obviously they will have to do both , but they are different than the norm DMFs and i call them , again that's just a me thing , fake . Like false 9s play where they play because they offer something different to the classic 9 , something similar i value in this case as well. It was not meant to be taken literally or as a standard , lol

Anyway , probably i didn't actually word that post right . I should have been more specific , obviously. In any case , no i don't literally consider Busquets anything fake , just not the typical version of DM. He's not at all bad in his defensive duties but for many reasons i doubt he will ever reach the defensive quality that Rijkaard or some really tough ball winners had. He has a far better creative side than a destructive one and besides , i doubt how much freedom Barcelona's system actually lets him show or be all he can , with regards to the defensive duties of the position.

Busquets' main job is to protect, not create. He does it in a different way to lots of DMs. You see a lot of DMs who cover lots of ground and make lots of tackles, but in my opinion what makes Busquets the best in the world right now is his ability to protect the defence without doing that. He has the ability to prevent an attack from becoming threatening without touching the ball, that is defensive skill.

Since I've been a football fan he is the only player I've seen who can have so much impact on a game so effortlessly. His positioning, awareness, discipline, anticipation and instincts are unmatched.

Defensive midfielders like Busquets will never become the most common type of DM, because it is the most difficult to master. Trying to break up play is much easier than what Busi does.

by jibers Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:49 pm

The Franchise wrote:This aint chat bro.

by jibers Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:50 pm

Makelele would have had to change his game if he played in todays la liga tbh.

by jibers Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:52 pm

El Jefe wrote:
Dante wrote:
El Jefe wrote:I don't understand how Busquets is a fake defensive midfielder. That is a load of rubbish. Lack of defensive skill? No chance.
Look , sure guy. I don't write stuff just for the sake of it. I specifically mentioned , in most cases . I never said Busquests is bad as DMF , or lacks in defensive skill . But since this post wasn't meant about Busquets and was about the very best , compared to other DMFs such as Rijkaard or Makelele , there he lacks in defensive skill , in comparison. In any case, i actually rate Busquets to the death , he's one of my favourite . But when we talk about all of them and try to find as best as possible an answer , then looking at the whole picture Sergio isn't up there with the best ball winners or tacklers or that commanding in the air and in general lines , his destructive side clearly does not overshine his creative side.

And once again , i also specifically mentioned I personally call them fake . I understand very well there's nothing fake with what they do . But these players aren't your typical DMF ala De Jong , for instance. They play in that position for other reasons , in fact for the complete opposite reasons than pure DMfs usually do. Not to help destroy and protect , but to help create and attack. Obviously they will have to do both , but they are different than the norm DMFs and i call them , again that's just a me thing , fake . Like false 9s play where they play because they offer something different to the classic 9 , something similar i value in this case as well. It was not meant to be taken literally or as a standard , lol

Anyway , probably i didn't actually word that post right . I should have been more specific , obviously. In any case , no i don't literally consider Busquets anything fake , just not the typical version of DM. He's not at all bad in his defensive duties but for many reasons i doubt he will ever reach the defensive quality that Rijkaard or some really tough ball winners had. He has a far better creative side than a destructive one and besides , i doubt how much freedom Barcelona's system actually lets him show or be all he can , with regards to the defensive duties of the position.
Busquets' main job is to protect, not create. He does it in a different way to lots of DMs. You see a lot of DMs who cover lots of ground and make lots of tackles, but in my opinion what makes Busquets the best in the world right now is his ability to protect the defence without doing that. He has the ability to prevent an attack from becoming threatening without touching the ball, that is defensive skill.

Since I've been a football fan he is the only player I've seen who can have so much impact on a game so effortlessly. His positioning, awareness, discipline, anticipation and instincts are unmatched.

Defensive midfielders like Busquets will never become the most common type of DM, because it is the most difficult to master. Trying to break up play is much easier than what Busi does.

100% agree. Interception and anticipation >>>

He is superior to makelele and he is a better dm than Redondo for the simple fact that he is nowhere near as vertical.

by Valkyrja Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:34 pm

Makelele wasn't a Gustavo ffs.

Btw, jibers stop it plx. I got that you dont rate any RM player but to say that Busquets is better than Redondo is too much :facepalm:

by futbol Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:46 am

He can do whatever he wants. He is the GOAT.

Also LOL @ Makelele praising. Only reason he's even famous is because SKY Sports pundits had never seen 4-3-3 before in their lifetimes until Mourinho arrived in England and used Makelele as an anchorman. So they called it the "Makelele role". LMAO

by FennecFox7 Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:37 am

let's not go too far there. makelele was a beast in his prime

by futbol Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:48 am

Yeah but people going as far as naming him in their top 5 DMs of all time is as random as calling van Bommel that. He got his fame status for completely different reasons than his actual performances on the pitch. Despite being a world class player in his prime, which I don't deny.

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