Re: Neymar or Götze, who's better right now?

by free_cat Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:17 am

Valkyrja wrote:
free_cat wrote:After watching the two games in the confed and the two previous Brasil friendlies, my vote goes to Neymar. Gotze is a bit more technical than Neymar and might have a higher football IQ, but the speed and goalscoring ability of Neymar makes Gotze a better player IMO.

Gotze has time to improve his goalscoring. If I remember correctly, Messi started to score many at 21-22.

And Neymar has time to improve his IQ and technique.
But the question is right now, and IMO right now Neymar is better because in a very offensive player as they are, I value speed and goalscoring over technique and IQ.

by free_cat Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:19 am

Harmonica wrote:

La Liga was the hardest to score of the three

1. La Liga 04-09, 2.62 GpG
2. Brasilerio 09-12, 2.65 GpG
3. Bundesliga 09-13, 2.89 GpG

Your data tells a lot. Neymar can score a lot more than Gotze and they are the same age.

by Valkyrja Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:26 am

free_cat wrote:
Harmonica wrote:

La Liga was the hardest to score of the three

1. La Liga 04-09, 2.62 GpG
2. Brasilerio 09-12, 2.65 GpG
3. Bundesliga 09-13, 2.89 GpG

Your data tells a lot. Neymar can score a lot more than Gotze and they are the same age.

Maybe because Gotze is more of a provider ? Wait until Pep nurtures him. And please let me with these stats, once you showed that La Liga is harder to score than Serie A was in the 90s.

by urbaNRoots Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:27 am

People have to realize that you can't compare players using stats, especially different players like Neymar and G*tze.

G*tze was never a "goalscorer" in Dortmund, first it was Barrios, then Kagawa, then Lewandowski and that's why his goalscoring stats might be worse than Neymar's.

We'll see more goals of Judas with Buyern when he plays as a false 9.

by Harmonica Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:33 am

Valkyrja wrote:
free_cat wrote:
Harmonica wrote:

La Liga was the hardest to score of the three

1. La Liga 04-09, 2.62 GpG
2. Brasilerio 09-12, 2.65 GpG
3. Bundesliga 09-13, 2.89 GpG

Your data tells a lot. Neymar can score a lot more than Gotze and they are the same age.

Maybe because Gotze is more of a provider ? Wait until Pep nurtures him. And please let me with these stats, once you showed that La Liga is harder to score than Serie A was in the 90s.

I said Serie-A wasn't actually overly defensive from 1990 to 2010, which is wasn't. And you still doesn't understand it? Sigh...

Neymar or Götze, who's better right now? - Page 2 8wmucp

Neymar or Götze, who's better right now? - Page 2 8wmucp

Here you can see how from the big four, Bundesliga has almost every season been the easiest league to score the past 50 years.

by rwo power Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:10 pm

As a matter of fact, the BL is not the easiest to score for a single player. There may be more goals over all, but that is as the clubs rely on team work, not on single star players. Look at Bayern, for example - they scored the most goals by a wide margin, but their top scorer only got 15 goals.

Here you can look at the number of goals for the players:
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/torjaeger/1-bundesliga/2012-13/torjaeger-der-saison.html

BTW, now that he works for Messi at Barca, I would assume that Neymar will score less goals the next season.

by Harmonica Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:22 pm

rwo power wrote:As a matter of fact, the BL is not the easiest to score for a single player. There may be more goals over all, but that is as the clubs rely on team work, not on single star players. Look at Bayern, for example - they scored the most goals by a wide margin, but their top scorer only got 15 goals.

Here you can look at the number of goals for the players:
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/torjaeger/1-bundesliga/2012-13/torjaeger-der-saison.html

That's not how it works. Bayern didn't have an individual scorer, because they didn't have an individual scorer. Not because it's harder to score, individually. They had such a player season before, and season before that. Gomez who scored 26 and 28 goals in league, respectively.

Kiessling scored 25 goals this season, and he isn't close to a Messi, Cronaldo or Falcao in quality. So who scored the next most in La Liga? Negredo, 25 goals.

BTW, now that he works for Messi at Barca, I would assume that Neymar will score less goals the next season.

When Neymar has Messi to create him chance after chance, he will score plenty, and Barca will actually score more next season.

by free_cat Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:51 pm

yeah, when there are more goals scored in a league consistently it can't be argued that it's more difficult to score. It's going against evidence.

Funny what a huge difference there was in terms of goals scored and how all the leagues are converging.

by rwo power Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:57 pm

@Harmonica

Well, but you cannot argue Neymar is better than Götze because he scores more when Gotze is not the focal player to score the goals at Dortmund. This line of argumentation is just not sensible.

by Toffer Harley Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:04 pm

Harmonica wrote:
Valkyrja wrote:
free_cat wrote:After watching the two games in the confed and the two previous Brasil friendlies, my vote goes to Neymar. Gotze is a bit more technical than Neymar and might have a higher football IQ, but the speed and goalscoring ability of Neymar makes Gotze a better player IMO.

Gotze has time to improve his goalscoring. If I remember correctly, Messi started to score many at 21-22.
Left out regional competitions:

Neymar 21 Santos, 149 games 83 goals
Messi 21 Barcelona, 149 games 72 goals
Götze 21 Dortmund, 116 games 31 goals

And Bundesliga is even the easiest league to score.

oh wow. this place is really becoming a circus...

by Harmonica Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:07 pm

rwo power wrote:@Harmonica

Well, but you cannot argue Neymar is better than Götze because he scores more when Gotze is not the focal player to score the goals at Dortmund. This line of argumentation is just not sensible.

Well I haven't said Neymar is better because he scores more goals. I just pointed the facts, that Messi did score at Neymar's age, and that Bundesliga was the easiest to score of the three.

by Arquitecto Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:13 pm

rwo power wrote:As a matter of fact, the BL is not the easiest to score for a single player. There may be more goals over all, but that is as the clubs rely on team work, not on single star players. Look at Bayern, for example - they scored the most goals by a wide margin, but their top scorer only got 15 goals.

Here you can look at the number of goals for the players:
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/torjaeger/1-bundesliga/2012-13/torjaeger-der-saison.html

BTW, now that he works for Messi at Barca, I would assume that Neymar will score less goals the next season.

Alex Meier was literally a one man show for Frankfurt outside the exception of Aigner.

Kiessling scored 27 goals for Leverkusen.

Lewandowski scored 36 goals. Though in fairness Reus scored many as well.

Ibesivic for Stuttgart.
Szalai for Mainz

Then looking at last year with Huntelaar's tally for Schalke, Gomez' tally for Bayern.

If you mention Ronaldo and Messi for Barcelona; both are a top two players in the world. Of course they will score such disparities of goals. Outside Ronaldo Higuain and Benzema have 20 goals each, respectively.

by timzink Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:56 pm

Neymar is the better player . He is a better athlete, he has outstanding technique and i think his decision making is very sound . However its probably impossible to say definitively who the better player is but I would prefer Neymar in my team .
Also, the phrase football IQ is a complete nonsense .

by free_cat Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:10 pm

timzink wrote:Neymar is the better player . He is a better athlete, he has outstanding technique and i think his decision making is very sound . However its probably impossible to say definitively who the better player is but I would prefer Neymar in my team .
Also, the phrase football IQ is a complete nonsense .

Well, yes, it's a bit nonsense, basically what I meant is that Gotze probably has more vision and is more a team and link up player, you know, tactical aspects that basically come from the mind, thus IQ to sum it up.

by free_cat Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:51 pm

That GL wisdom.

All CB are shit.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:10 pm

You asked who is better right now, at the time of the thread nobody was wrong.

by free_cat Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:31 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:You asked who is better right now, at the time of the thread nobody was wrong.

Well, yeah, Neymar was already better according to my 2 years ago assessment, and many people also believed Gotze to have better future as posted. So there's that and all CBs are shit.

by VivaStPauli Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:52 pm

No you were wrong. Accept it and move on.

If you asked the question now, you might be right. But you didn't. You asked it two years ago.
Edit: Technically you weren't wrong, because you asked. The poll result was right, is what I'm saying.

by Ganso Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:58 pm

Harmonica wrote:Wait, somebody actually voted Götze? Neymar has won Copa Libertadores being the top scorer and the best player, and has been two years in a row for Ballon d'Or Top 15. Haven't seen Götze anywhere.

harmonica defending nerman Laughing

by Valkyrja Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:08 pm

Ganso wrote:
harmonica defending nerman

He realized that Nerman improves Messi's assists stats :coffee:

by billy_gr Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:28 pm

^^^ LOL

by Gil Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:33 am

Gotze was always overrated. De Bruyne is a better player.

by RealGunner Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:56 am

De Bruyne definitely had a better season.

We are yet to see Goetze's potential tbh.

by Lord Hades Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:03 am

I am sorry but how is Gotze winning this poll? Hes had a very underwhelming campaign while Neymar has been killing it at club level along with hus usually brilliant form at international level.

by billy_gr Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:00 am

probably because it's a very old thread?

by futbol Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:15 am

Fußball wrote:
Sushi Master wrote:

Toffer put it nicely, because everyone forgets Götze last season due to Kagawa's form, but he was actually pulling all the strings back then before his injury. Winning the BL and reaching CL stages is not proof enough? Back then there was no Reus, either...

Before his injury Bayern was actually leading the league table. Götze started the first 14 games of the season (so the first half of the season). In that period the league table looked like this (first 17 games of the season):

Bayern: 37 points
Dortmund: 34 points
Schalke: 34 points

Then he got injured but Kagawa returned. In that period without him this is how the table looked like in the second half of the season (last 17 games):

Dortmund: 47 points
Bayern: 36 points
Stuttgart: 31 points

Doesn't look like a team that relies on Götze pulling the strings in fairness.

So before people take this the wrong way. I'm not doubting Götze's talent. What I'm doubting is that he is "proven" just because Dortmund have won things. The fact that Dortmund were capable of winning 15 out of 17 consecutive games in the Bundesliga without Götze and beat Bayern twice as well indicates that they wouldn't do worse with Neymar instead of Götze either. Dortmund don't seem to rely on Götze at all.

At times when the hype was sky high, the indomitable football diagnosis struck again. :bow:

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