Neymar or Götze, who's better right now?

So, who's better?

götze

Gotze,

Gotze atm.

Götze is CL proven and has been at the higher level for longer.

Sushi Master wrote:Götze is CL proven and has been at the higher level for longer.

Götze has played 5 CL knockout games in his whole life and sucked in at least 2 of them where he was missing chance after chance against Malaga. The season before he was injured all season and Dortmund did well without him and with Kagawa as their main man, winning the Bundesliga and beating Bayern 5-1 in the domestic Cup final. So what exactly has he proven? Except that he's European and part of a successful team so he must be automatically >>>>>>>>>>.

futbol wrote:

Sushi Master wrote:Götze is CL proven and has been at the higher level for longer.

Götze has played 5 CL knockout games in his whole life and sucked in at least 2 of them where he was missing chance after chance against Malaga. The season before he was injured all season and Dortmund did well without him and with Kagawa as their main man, winning the Bundesliga and beating Bayern 5-1 in the domestic Cup final. So what exactly has he proven? Except that he's European and part of a successful team so he must be automatically >>>>>>>>>>.

no he wasn't, almost half the season. the season before that, kagawa had a similar fate and götze stepped in. that kid never had a period worth mentioning where he "sucked".

even if it was true what u wrote there, that's still more than anything neymar has achieved.

Toffer Harley wrote:

futbol wrote:

Sushi Master wrote:Götze is CL proven and has been at the higher level for longer.

Götze has played 5 CL knockout games in his whole life and sucked in at least 2 of them where he was missing chance after chance against Malaga. The season before he was injured all season and Dortmund did well without him and with Kagawa as their main man, winning the Bundesliga and beating Bayern 5-1 in the domestic Cup final. So what exactly has he proven? Except that he's European and part of a successful team so he must be automatically >>>>>>>>>>.

no he wasn't, almost half the season. the season before that, kagawa had a similar fate and götze stepped in. that kid never had a period worth mentioning where he "sucked".

even if it was true what u wrote there, that's still more than anything neymar has achieved.

Toffer put it nicely, because everyone forgets Götze last season due to Kagawa's form, but he was actually pulling all the strings back then before his injury. Winning the BL and reaching CL stages is not proof enough? Back then there was no Reus, either...

He's done very well, considering Dortmund were in a very tough group and got through 1st... then reached the freakin' final were he was only missing due to injury.

CL football is above anything Neymar has played in. Just for that he's more proven in my eyes.

I'm not saying Neymar's a scrub, but I'm waiting to see how he does this season before I make any conclusions.

unfair comparison for Neymar.. It's not his fault that he was born in Brasil and had to impress in his country first.. The guy did everything he could do there.. Let's see in 2 years from now.. And Gotze, as much as i seen dortmund in UCL (Malagaa QF and Real Madrid semis ) looked average in that Dortmund team, guys like Reus, Lewa, Gundogan impressed me more... I think talent-wise Neymar is better, it's just a personal opinion from what i've seen, and with a proper phisycally and mental preparation at a big club like Barca, my prediction is that Neymar will be the better player..

I just noticed, since Neymar joined Barca he's overrated, unproven, , lacks strength etc

Sushi Master wrote:

Toffer put it nicely, because everyone forgets Götze last season due to Kagawa's form, but he was actually pulling all the strings back then before his injury. Winning the BL and reaching CL stages is not proof enough? Back then there was no Reus, either...

Before his injury Bayern was actually leading the league table. Götze started the first 14 games of the season (so the first half of the season). In that period the league table looked like this (first 17 games of the season):

Bayern: 37 points
Dortmund: 34 points
Schalke: 34 points

Then he got injured but Kagawa returned. In that period without him this is how the table looked like in the second half of the season (last 17 games):

Dortmund: 47 points
Bayern: 36 points
Stuttgart: 31 points

Doesn't look like a team that relies on Götze pulling the strings in fairness.

So before people take this the wrong way. I'm not doubting Götze's talent. What I'm doubting is that he is "proven" just because Dortmund have won things. The fact that Dortmund were capable of winning 15 out of 17 consecutive games in the Bundesliga without Götze and beat Bayern twice as well indicates that they wouldn't do worse with Neymar instead of Götze either. Dortmund don't seem to rely on Götze at all.

tuddor wrote:unfair comparison for Neymar.. It's not his fault that he was born in Brasil and had to impress in his country first.. The guy did everything he could do there.. Let's see in 2 years from now.. And Gotze, as much as i seen dortmund in UCL (Malagaa QF and Real Madrid semis ) looked average in that Dortmund team, guys like Reus, Lewa, Gundogan impressed me more... I think talent-wise Neymar is better, it's just a personal opinion from what i've seen, and with a proper phisycally and mental preparation at a big club like Barca, my prediction is that Neymar will be the better player..

well the OP asked who's better right now. and among other things u seem to have missed that:

futbol wrote:

Sushi Master wrote:

Toffer put it nicely, because everyone forgets Götze last season due to Kagawa's form, but he was actually pulling all the strings back then before his injury. Winning the BL and reaching CL stages is not proof enough? Back then there was no Reus, either...

Before his injury Bayern was actually leading the league table. Götze started the first 14 games of the season (so the first half of the season). In that period the league table looked like this (first 17 games of the season):

Bayern: 37 points
Dortmund: 34 points
Schalke: 34 points

Then he got injured but Kagawa returned. In that period without him this is how the table looked like in the second half of the season (last 17 games):

Dortmund: 47 points
Bayern: 36 points
Stuttgart: 31 points

Doesn't look like a team that relies on Götze pulling the strings in fairness.

So before people take this the wrong way. I'm not doubting Götze's talent. What I'm doubting is that he is "proven" just because Dortmund have won things. The fact that Dortmund were capable of winning 15 out of 17 consecutive games in the Bundesliga without Götze and beat Bayern twice as well indicates that they wouldn't do worse with Neymar instead of Götze either. Dortmund don't seem to rely on Götze at all.

as said, the previous season it was the other way around but i don't get what kagawa has to do with this. while (fit) kagawa was at bvb, götze was always playin on the right. if anyone is to be mentioned in that relation it is kuba, because he replaced götze in the season you are referring to. or maybe you are trying to say that kagawa was isolated before with götze on the pitch? that would be a pretty odd allegation given the fact that kagawa was given götze's preferred position in the middle.

either way, the main reason for bvb doing much better in the second half of the season was the fact that they dropped out of the CL group stages(with götze AND kagawa). the players and klopp themselves admitted that this helped their cause in the BL. and their reactions after götze's depature also illustrate what an irreplaceable player he was for them. i don't think it is debatable that götze was a vital part of their team.

100% of people voted for Gotze? I don't think that's really fair, I don't know who is better, that's why I asked, but I'm sure there's not such a big difference between the two.

Wait, somebody actually voted Götze? Neymar has won Copa Libertadores being the top scorer and the best player, and has been two years in a row for Ballon d'Or Top 15. Haven't seen Götze anywhere.

Toffer Harley wrote:

as said, the previous season it was the other way around

It was never the other way around. Dortmund have always suffered without Kagawa but not without Götze.

10/11: Kagawa played the first half of the season (first 17 games) and then missed the second half after breaking his foot.

=> Dortmund in first half of the season with Kagawa (first 17 games): 43 points (10 points infront of second-placed Mainz)
=> Dortmund in second half of the season without Kagawa (last 17 games): 32 points (Dortmund in third place behind Bayern and Leverkusen)

11/12: Kagawa missed the first half of the season (first 17 games) and then came back in the second half.

=> Dortmund in first half of the season without Kagawa (first 17 games): 34 points (Dortmund in second place, 3 points behind Bayern)
=> Dortmund in second half of the season after Kagawa's return (last 17 games): 47 points (9 points infront of second-placed Bayern).

12/13: Kagawa goes to Manchester United => Dortmund with 30 points in the first half of the season and 36 points in the second half of the season.

That's 3 seasons in a row (or 6 half seasons if you like) in which Dortmund have never managed to accumulate 40+ points in a half season without Kagawa, regardless of Götze being fully fit or not, regardless of it being the first or second half of the season. In fact Dortmund's best period was in 11/12 second half of the season without Götze (47 points). And their worst was with a fit Götze in 12/13 (30 points). Thus, my question: What has Götze proven exactly? Because it doesn't look like he was the difference maker for Dortmund at any point of his career and Dortmund are missing Kagawa far more.

Just watch a Dortmund game. Please.

i don't know what data you are quoting there, but quite a bit of it is false. kagawa played pretty much the whole 11/12 season. he was injured in one game and in two he was on the bench. that means he was just as responsible for the lower yield of points in the first half of the seaon as götze.

when götze was gone in the second half they had a higher yield, which may be what you were trying to point out. but again, the only thing that could possibly be inferred from that is that kuba might be a better RM than götze. and again 2x, dortmund could focus on the BL as they dropped out of the CL groupstages.

having said that, i find this analysis misleading also because:

1) i still don't know what kagawa or player X has to do with this. even as a standard of dependency this view is flawed as the more unflexible kagawa was handed his favoured spot and has been a professional (even if it was just in japan) for longer than götze. götze was introduced as a barely 18 year old straight from the youth academy.

2) it's not like BVB move in a vacuum. the competitiveness inside the league changes and other teams also pick up new playstyles and start to figure out dortmund or other teams.

3) the dynamics inside a team also change. players like gündogan come into their own etc. and not everybody else playes at the same constant level. this model suggests that everone except kagawa and götze plays like a predictable robot.

this is it for me concerning this whole thing as the discussion also gets too far away from the actual topic. the vote is clear enough anyway.

Gotze CL proven?He wasnt even one of the top 3 players from Dormund, lets not make it look as if he was ripping it up in CL.The guy almost took Dortmund out of CL against malaga when he lost about 50 sitters.

For now i would say Gotze is better, but its a close gap

I voted for Götze(mostly because I have seen a little more of him than Neymar), but then I read what futbol said and I agree 100% with what he said.

After watching the two games in the confed and the two previous Brasil friendlies, my vote goes to Neymar. Gotze is a bit more technical than Neymar and might have a higher football IQ, but the speed and goalscoring ability of Neymar makes Neymar a better player IMO.

free_cat wrote:After watching the two games in the confed and the two previous Brasil friendlies, my vote goes to Neymar. Gotze is a bit more technical than Neymar and might have a higher football IQ, but the speed and goalscoring ability of Neymar makes Gotze a better player IMO.

Gotze has time to improve his goalscoring. If I remember correctly, Messi started to score many at 21-22.

Valkyrja wrote:

free_cat wrote:After watching the two games in the confed and the two previous Brasil friendlies, my vote goes to Neymar. Gotze is a bit more technical than Neymar and might have a higher football IQ, but the speed and goalscoring ability of Neymar makes Gotze a better player IMO.

Gotze has time to improve his goalscoring. If I remember correctly, Messi started to score many at 21-22.

Left out regional competitions:

Neymar 21 Santos, 149 games 83 goals
Messi 21 Barcelona, 149 games 72 goals
Götze 21 Dortmund, 116 games 31 goals

And Bundesliga is even the easiest league to score.

Messi 21, 110 games 42 goals, playing in La Liga. Bundesliga is harder to score.

La Liga was the hardest to score of the three

1. La Liga 04-09, 2.62 GpG
2. Brasilerio 09-12, 2.65 GpG
3. Bundesliga 09-13, 2.89 GpG

Valkyrja wrote:

free_cat wrote:After watching the two games in the confed and the two previous Brasil friendlies, my vote goes to Neymar. Gotze is a bit more technical than Neymar and might have a higher football IQ, but the speed and goalscoring ability of Neymar makes Gotze a better player IMO.

Gotze has time to improve his goalscoring. If I remember correctly, Messi started to score many at 21-22.

And Neymar has time to improve his IQ and technique.
But the question is right now, and IMO right now Neymar is better because in a very offensive player as they are, I value speed and goalscoring over technique and IQ.