[BOOKS] Game of Thrones for the Literate

Another theory. Daario=Euron.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/253zbx/is_daario_reallyspoilers_adwd/

At least it makes more sense than Daario=Benjen

Seen a lot of different variations of that theory. It would be truly hilarious to see Victarion rock up to claim Dany only for his brother to just sidle over and tell him that he's already banged her, but it's basically ridiculous.

In a few hours...

http://img3.hungertv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/5750-9-015_f2-copy-518x470.jpg

CRUNCH

One more Sansa chapter left and after that it's TWOW territory (I'm assuming they won't bench her for an entire season). I find it really exciting to see where they're going with this. Totally digged in-control Sansa, makes her much more interesting than being a pawn.

Nitpicking time.

The fight should have been longer. The fight going into the crowd and The Mountain hacking off some spectators was one of the best parts of the battle in the book.

Oberyn's ingenious plan to take out Gregor should have been empahsised. Him targetting the weak points of the near indestructible armour, reflecting the sunlight in his eyes with the shield, poisoned spear etc.

Cersei screaming NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Ellaria "Oberyn is toying with him."
Tyrion "The Mountain's too bloody big to be any man's toy!"

Tyrion "I am feeling more innocent by the minute"

Gregor yelling SHUT UP.

Oberyn's Seven Hells line.

Still it was great. The head smashing was as gruesome as expected.

Jesus Christ I almost forgot how horrible that actually was.
Just put Cercei and unMountain down already GRRM   

Man the whole scene shook me up. I can't remember this effect from any other show. Not to this extent.

Red Wedding wasn't this impactful for me.

M99 wrote:Nitpicking time.

The fight should have been longer. The fight going into the crowd and The Mountain hacking off some spectators was one of the best parts of the battle in the book.

Oberyn's ingenious plan to take out Gregor should have been empahsised. Him targetting the weak points of the near indestructible armour, reflecting the sunlight in his eyes with the shield, poisoned spear etc.

Cersei screaming NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Ellaria "Oberyn is toying with him."
Tyrion "The Mountain's too bloody big to be any man's toy!"

Tyrion "I am feeling more innocent by the minute"

Gregor yelling SHUT UP.

Oberyn's Seven Hells line.

Still it was great. The head smashing was as gruesome as expected.

They deleted one of the best conversations of the entire series for some talk about beetles and a retarded cousin?

Ridiculous.

Martell is my favorite house, I still believe Doran is going to win the long game and his daughters will *bleep* some people up along the way.

I don't know about everyone else, but after this the series became a bit less fun for me. I just stopped caring as much. Oberyn was 10x Robb/Ned/Whoever. If Tyrion had died too, I'd have stopped reading.

This show is doing some great foreshadowing.

In the first episode, Oberyn tells Tyrion that they are both second sons.

In this episode, Oberyn to Tyrion "And you know that how? From your experience in the fighting pits?"

The Oberyn and Varys conversation earlier in the season was clearly an Aegon reference.

There has been multiple times the jape "Tywin Lannister shits gold" has been dropped.

The look Jaime gave to Tyrion in episode 7 when Tyrion says that he was stupid enough to fall in love with a whore. Tysha foreshadowing.

Littlefinger this episode "Some me even die while squatting in their chamber pots."

What a great episode man . Has to be one of the best in the entire series . I was surprised to see Sansa revealing herself in her confession , but oh well.. it didn't particularly alter anything big , so all good. I suppose , they did take some credit off Littlefinger and added it to Sansa , contrary to the books where Littlefinger actually had her schooled (iirc) .  And dat :

" And you think you know me ? "

" I know what you want "

" Do you ? "

... (cold-bitchpls-stare)

Great stuff in the Eyrie with Littlefinger and Sansa .

Arya with the Hound reaching the Eyrie. Well , we know that never happened . I cannot get why they sent these 2 there but , i think we san safely assume Arya won't meet Sansa either. But the Hound did announce her name.... is it just me that found this huge? Surely this is something very important , it cannot be that such an information will never pass to someone important in the series?! maybe not Sansa and Littlefinger , but maybe Brienne ? idk , but i find this a major change. It's one thing to see Arya and the Hound turn up in the Eyrie only for the effects , yet now it is known that they were there. In the books , nobody knew what has been of Arya.

I liked the Tyrion-Jaime talk . It was 2 brothers trying to forget their worries and problems and just try to be what normal brothers are usually .. only for the bell to remind them of the inevitable and worse . It made the scene and what comes after all the more dramatic. And finally , the fight.

I suppose it could be longer , though by no means that was fast . They cut some great lines from the books before it all ends , yet i think it allowed for much more intense scenes and allowed to focus entirely on the fighters . I think they did it exactly like they had to do it for the show. It felt right to me , idk about you guys. The show is a different space than the books and not everything can fit in , sometimes things just have to be more direct . With that in mind , i think the fight was excellent.

Oberyn's death was , pfff.. it takes a lot to disgust me ; i've seen people throw up and i was eating near them , having no fks left to give. Yet how they shot this.. idk , seeing his teeth splater all over the floor , Oberyn's face full of agony , fear and blood .. then his head exploding at the hands of the Mountain ...

It made me half-close my eyes , like when you try some lemon and you cringe

From an objective point of view . It was perfect. As for what RG said , about Oberyn and if Tyrion had died.. I don't know about you man , but , ever since i saw Ned die. I knew it could practically be anyone after that. I realised that very well . Ned was the protagonist , if there ever was one it was him , of the first book. And he died. I had no doubts as to what this entire thing is. I read to the last line in fear of my favourite characters dying , yet always in hope their foes would meet the same end. I had both before i finished the last book.

I remember how upset i was when Tyrion from all people killed Tywin. Tywin Lannister , a character who has shaped Westeros and could be pivotal for the entire outcome of the war and the fortunes of his house , was dead. I still read with great passion. Grrm can kill everyone and be sure that he will kill Tyrion at some point. It cannot take anything away from me , that's why i am so intrigued with this series. It is not canon , the best are allowed to die here. The most interesting die before the best and the worst prove why they are the worst before they die themselves too.

You can't find that anywhere.

M99 wrote:Actually Craster's sons being The Others were in the book.

Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”

“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons."

Never replied to that . Well , it's true it has been in the books. Yet , i can't recall one dude confirm that that's what has been happening all this time. Only after the show revealed it all people picked that up and hold it as , see it was there .

Neither the dude from the blog was definite and sure about it. He just mentioned this could be happening , but never went balls deep about it. Anyway. The dude also claimed the Others were their own race though . Well that's not exactly a claim when they are not humans either


I like his theory so much , with the Children being behind everything . That it is them who gifted the northmen warging abilities through blood magic . That it was them behind the entire Rhllor religion , making a point where they can control the physical elements to their purpose. He makes a very spectacular case here ; that all of this , Rhllor , the Old gods, the God of Many Faces the Faceless Men believe , is actually the Children . They created all that , since they could not defeat them on the battlefield with their magic only , they would do so with their brains and vast knowledge , in time. And with magic , obviously.

And come to think about everything that he says there , it makes some sense . Why else they have been on the opposite side of the wall , if they helped men defeat the Others , like it's been said? No , he makes a case where , the Children actually built the wall to protect themselves from humans . And after they succeed in making men believe in "them" , they would actually use the world of Ice ( The Others and them being The Old Gods ) and Fire (The Dragons and them being the God of Light Rhllor) to exterminate humanity .. not sure how this will pan out , maybe they will fight each other , yet it will be because the real enemy remains hidden.

I know Bran the builder was supposed to have built that with their help , yet that's probably bollocks , no human being could have orchistrated that and see it through. Perhaps the then Stark king , Bran the Builder , was the one who built the night's watch? Castles and everything? I dont remember right now , yet i wouldn't be surprised to read as such. Thus staying as Bran the Builder in history. And after thousands of years , legend had him build the actuall wall , but with the help of the Children.

Anyhow , i defo see the Children as the main evil after reading his theory , untill it is confirmed otherwise . Idk , i am bought with this. Though there's one major flaw in all of this. It would imply that it is actually all about the great evil V humanity , much like every other fantasy saga known to man .. and D & D confirmed that's one thing that this story will never be about.

It could be interpreted in such a way i guess. Or is it just about survivability in the end? Afterall , if it's down to humanity being at the bring of extinction , it perhaps has nothing to do with good or evil. But the fate of 2 species , who can't live with each other on the same environment. We see that in nature , even in fantastic nature , all the time. There's nothing good or evil about it , it's just what it is. The strongest survives.

this is already a boring long post , yet i think his blog about Norse mythology and Asoiaf , where he makes very interesting cases , is something that deserves a lot of discusion. I realise most won't come true , won't go at it again , but the case he makes about Bloodraven and the Children , it just makes so much sense to me.

IIRC they are still alive in the books right?

Yeah.

Did you read the theories that got posted while you were on your sabbatical

Also wtf is with Allister Thorne giving a speech?

That fight was ALL Jon. Every decision was made by Jon. Every tactic was deployed by Jon. He was the one who saved the wall from the initial attack.

They would ruin his character if they don't show any of that. His intellect before he became the LC was so crucial in setting up his character.

M99 wrote:Yeah.

Did you read the theories that got posted while you were on your sabbatical

Yea, read most of them from before. Will reply to many of the posts soon

RealGunner wrote:Also wtf is with Allister Thorne giving a speech?

That fight was ALL Jon. Every decision was made by Jon. Every tactic was deployed by Jon. He was the one who saved the wall from the initial attack.

They would ruin his character if they don't show any of that. His intellect before he became the LC was so crucial in setting up his character.

Donal Noye is not in the show. I'm pretty sure Alliser will take his place. Jon will finally earn his respect and he will  probably tell Jon to take charge of the Wall with his dying breath.

They best do that.

Although I preferred the little heel faction of Allister and Janos in the books. Donal was an awesome character too

I guess they might have the flexibility to kill off Thorne given he's currently AWOL in the books, however as said, the Thorne-Slynt axis is more threatening than Slynt alone. Donal definitely should have been included though.

Also Dante, I believe that the series could be made into the Children vs Humanity without representing Evil vs Humanity. After all, men have almost entirely wiped out the Children to the point that most consider them dead legends, whilst the direwolves, giants, mammoths and unicorns are following them, whilst dragons had previously gone extinct. If the Children were to attack the realms of men, it would not be for the sake of it but for the greater good of all living species, but particularly their own survival. I think the Children are definitely hiding something but if they do turn out to be entirely antagonistic, it won't be simply as a representation of evil. They would feel like the men do about the Others currently, it would be the same battle on both sides, not one of Good and Evil.

I hope that . I hope that because it could be done this way. From an objective point of view , like you described things , then yes , it should not be about that. Even me said it in a similar way , though with less detail. From the CotF pov , humans are foes to nature and to all beings near them , thus making their cause just in their eyes . This way , if it's emphasised towards this , hopefully ... we definitely agree. They can't co-exist , we know that.

Leaf wrote:"Gone down into the earth... Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came, all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all , but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us".

That is a strong hint imo. You only read as such in war stories , fantasy or real ones. And usually , one of the opposing sides says these words . Like Leaf did here. Especially interesting is the fact that Leaf says their numbers were few. The author of the theory makes a case where they must have been a pacifistic race drawn to violence and war to protect themselves against humans. Again , good arguements as to men being just as evil in the eyes of a neutral entity.


But from humanity's point of view? It will be . No matter what their ancestors did some thousands of years ago , so to make them at least as evil in the eyes of the CotF .. if they get to find out , it will be , like in every fantasy series , the Ancient Evil that has arisen to bring down the entire world .

I understand what you said . The men are just as ancient evil to them. Even that should be enough for the story , not to be Evil Vs Good . Ok. I gladly accept that .

I will throw something else on this one. ASOIAF , is fantasy series . It starts with fantasy elements and it will most certainly end with fantasy elements. It was designed and thought of , in a world of magic . That magic doesn't frequently take place in the beginnings of it , does not change this highly significant factor. Where i am going with this.

Like almost every single fantasy series , there has to be an Ancient Evil . It just has to be. That you can make the opposing side less good , or more guilty about what's coming to them , does not change the fact that the Ancient Evil is there . When the Children want to genocide the entire human race , that is evil to them and one can say that's all you need to know . And when the CotF plan to do that for thousands of years , that is your Ancient Evil .

Of course men , have also tried to do the same and they have almost succeeded about it. Thus making them just as evil in the eyes of the CotF. So , i understand what you mean it could be done without all being about Good V Evil , i dont want it to be about that , but why i am dragging this ;

Men might be just as bad , in the eyes of an objective , parallel 'entity' , that perhaps overlooks the events in the most fair way .. there we agree , it's definitely not about evil vs good. Yet it won't seem like that to the men of Westeros and thus to the readers. If it turns out that the Children are sinister and want to see humanity end , this automaticaly makes them the ancient evil for men , it doesn't matter to them what their ancestors have been doing a past thousands of years forgotten in legend.

For arguement's sake , let's assume GRRM has intended for the Children to be what we speculate. He must have foreseen ways to totally counter that and there's certainly good evidence that he has already given enough background into this.. not to mention , D & D would never say that if it weren't the case and even GRRM has talked about the grey area most characters reside in , meaning not only the end but the entire build up is not about good and evil . It already exists a good case that it's not about that.

But there has to be an ancient evil , for the story to work.. Humans will be at the center of all that and humans are those who us the readers see everything through them . Is it the Others? Is it the Children ? Is it the Children who will use the Others and "Gods" and Dragons? Idk what it will be and if the CotF cause is more or less just , but it won't make them less ancient evil to humanity because men have been or are too . The ancient evil does exist in the series , simply because it's a fantasy series.

If it's not the Children like he speculates. It is the Others , who are only described as evil , if anything. That would make an even greater and much more definite case of Good Vs Evil , cause men never attacked or hunted down the Others. Never stepped in the Land of Always winter to drive them away of their homes and steal their land of plenty stone and snow. No. The Others have been pure evil against men and they still are after thousands of years. That's the info we have . The only contradictive information we have .. is the Night's King and the Female Other he supposedly married , or something. But that's it , one evil man who did something out of this world and turned against his own kind. That hardly makes an entire race any better . Even though , a Female Other would also mean an Other Race , just like the author of the theory says. As to what drives them so madly against the humans .. we cannot say yet. Yet even in Lotr , where it's all about G vs E , men still sided with Sauron , it didn't make the side of Evil any better or the side of Good any worse. Any of this doesn't make it any better for them. Pure evil .

The only other man who we know of being in good terms with the Others is Craster.. and Craster was one of the worst shits alive in the entire existance of Westeros and Essos , sacrificing his sons (quite possibly against humanity) , just for him to stay alive .  

So , given that this story was never about good vs evil and never will be according to the best of sources , well , Others V Humanity would make it just that (unless i am missing something huge..) So , maybe there resides a huge clue , that it simply won't be what it's all about in the end.. and maybe , just maybe . It is indeed the Children , where you cannot exactly make a true or solid enough case about Good Vs Evil , at least nowhere near that easily as with the Others .

Adding Bloodraven into the mix and now Bran. Adding the Red Priests and Daenerys and her Dragons and Melissandre and her army of believers of Rhllor and Jon , in what ever the F he turns out to be . Putting humans with magic(CotF) against humans with whatever they mean to fight back , well , that doesn't exactly make a case of good vs evil and maybe there you have it , it could be humans vs humans afterall .. Having that said , here it is , the problem of my long post ; the Ancient Evil , has to be there for anything to make sense near the end. Otherwise nothing , absolutely nothing of that will come forth in unition . If there's no ancient evil , then we are talking about something entirely different here and this theory is far away off the mark , only being spot on about the norse mythology being an influence on many characters GRRM created.

But if there is an ancient evil like men would perceive it to be and the possibilities make it seem to be there is , we have to wait and see exactly why and how it will act against humans , because it doesn't seem to be about good vs evil. And if this theory is to be believed , it makes a good enough case as to why this will not be about that .. and convincingly fall under the confirmation of all this not being a case of Good Vs Evil , by both D & D and GRRM. It might as well lead to that , afterall , because let's face it , Others vs Humans is Evil vs Good , period.

We cannot even remotely argue about that , so IT HAS to be more than that , much more than that.

You might want to keep in mind that d&d have said that this is not building up to a grand battle between good and evil, so the others will probably get humanized later on.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:You might want to keep in mind that d&d have said that this is not building up to a grand battle between good and evil, so the others will probably get humanized later on.

Well , what exactly do you mean by humanised? That GRRM will somehow anthropomorphise them? I suppose , he has to be doing something behind the scenes , whether it's the CotF being sinister or the Others having an other side , not so evil afterall .. (maybe the female Other marrying the Night's King is some kind of proof of that afterall ) ..because the Others V Humans cannot turn out to be anything else but evil vs good , that would inevitably end in battle. So it has to be more.

As things are turning out in the story of asoiaf , it may as well be a war between religions and who will stand where . And if the Ragnarok dude is right about the CotF , well , with the CotF manipulating those involved , behind the scenes . The Gods of Westeros against the Red God .

Both are real to the reader , yet nobody is sure as to who's the bad or the good one. Because that doesn't exist in this story , all gods are cruel . Could it be because both of them are different sides of the exact same coin , the CotF ? What do you think BC

Great post concerning the Children, Dante.

I think it's possible that we will learn that the Others have a tragic origin, however unless they also given motives we can empathise with, then they'll still be seen as pure Evil, as you brought out with your analysis of the Children. A possible origin of the Orcs in LotR after all, certainly the one put forth by Peter Jackson in the films, was that they were elves tortured and broken. It doesn't help the audience feel sorry for them though because all they do is fight for Evil. It's going to be a huge challenge for Martin, however I really would like to see the Others be revealed as complicated characters with whom we might be induced to side in certain situations. He might be planning on using Bran to accomplish this.

A theory on Sansa's future. Spoilers if you have not read The Hedge Knight from the Tales Of Dunk And Egg.

In the Hedge Knight, Dunk and Egg go to a tourney held at Ashford to celebrate Lord Ashford's daughter's 13th name-day. Lady Ashford has 5 champions fighting on her behalf and anyone who defeats a champion ends up replacing their opponent as a champion for Lady Ashford. In the end, the 5 champions who end up defending Lady Ashford are:

Lyonel Baratheon
Leo Tyrell
Tybolt Lannister
Humfrey Hardyng
Prince Valarr Targaryen

Sansa's first betrothed to Joffrey Baratheon
Sansa's then planned to be wed to Willas Tyrell
Sansa's married to Tyrion Lannister
Sansa's now being betrothed to Harry Hardyng

So at some point in the future, Sansa will be betrothed to Aegon.

Wouldn't put past GRRM to wed Sansa with Jon.

but that theory is interesting. However if Aegon is fake then she is going to have another failed marriage lmao