Ideal Team

The M'Vila idea is just absurd, we don't need to upgrade our DM position, possibly a back up but thats it. There are others positions we need to improve on before we make lucas a squad player.

Papadopolous wasn't signed because of a lingering knee issue, and he's already reinjured it. He'll be out for several months and there's no guarantee he'll be quality when he comes back.

Why sign Eriksen just to play him out of position? If you want Coutinho to play centrally then move for a proper wide attacker. Eriksen has neither the pace nor the mentality to effectively operate in a wide area like that.

mr-r34 wrote:The M'Vila idea is just absurd, we don't need to upgrade our DM position, possibly a back up but thats it. There are others positions we need to improve on before we make lucas a squad player.

Yes we do. Lucas is a weak link, hence why any team with runners from midfield causes us so many problems. Hence why our defence is left exposed so often. He's average at best because he lacks positional sense. M'Vila is potentially one of the best midfielders in the world.

RedOranje wrote:Why sign Eriksen just to play him out of position?  If you want Coutinho to play centrally then move for a proper wide attacker.  Eriksen has neither the pace nor the mentality to effectively operate in a wide area like that.

He'd be on the left cutting in and rotating throughout games with Coutinho. That's not "out of position", he's played their plenty of times for Ajax.

I'd love to see some statistics backing up the "runners from midfield" comment, because both my eye test and all the numbers I've seen so far have indicated to me that we struggle with marking on set pieces and with strong, athletic CFs (like Benteke, Kenwyne Jones, or most recently Arquin).  Both of those issues would indicate the problem lies with the CBs, and to a lesser extent the full-backs (allowing crosses to come in unimpeded), not with Lucas.

Lucas' interception and tackling numbers are consistently at the top of the league when he's healthy, too, which seems to indicate strong positioning to me.  Again, this is backed up by the eye test.  I'm curious if you could provide me some statistics that indicate what you're  saying, though, since every method of observation I've personally sought out has directly contradicted it.

Why are we even discussing Eriksen in this thread still??  

There are no statistics for being out of position or for missing interceptions. I've said this before on this forum. It's easy to win lots and lots of tackles when you're a ball chaser. He'll abandon his position so often in a match that he's bound to win it a few times. That doesn't make him a good DM. His job is to protect the defence but he doesn't do it.

He looked okay against Stoke because they don't run from midfield and they don't have forwards with any movement. He could deal with it because everything was in front of him. When Villa started being a bit more adventurous he was horrendous. Look at the incident in the first half where Bacuna was running at our defence, he stepped inside Agger and was tackled by Toure, that came directly from Lucas not tracking him. It's this sort of thing that gets ignored because it's not recorded by stats.

El Jefe wrote:There are no statistics for being out of position or for missing interceptions. I've said this before on this forum. It's easy to win lots and lots of tackles when you're a ball chaser. He'll abandon his position so often in a match that he's bound to win it a few times. That doesn't make him a good DM. His job is to protect the defence but he doesn't do it.

He looked okay against Stoke because they don't run from midfield and they don't have forwards with any movement. He could deal with it because everything was in front of him. When Villa started being a bit more adventurous he was horrendous. Look at the incident in the first half where Bacuna was running at our defence, he stepped inside Agger and was tackled by Toure, that came directly from Lucas not tracking him. It's this sort of thing that gets ignored because it's not recorded by stats.

In regards to the stats, I'm not sure how you can slate him on interceptions when he's consistently near the top of the league in that category, as I mentioned. I guess there's always room to do better, but I'd be very surprised if M'Vila - a player still in France, who is widely regarded as a failure when considering his potential - could top those numbers. Or anyone else, to be honest, considering how Lucas consistently puts himself in the elite tiers.

But regardless, that's why I mentioned the eye test. Footy isn't really a statistical game, so you have to combine the two, and I can't remember a single goal in recent years where Lucas was directly responsible for the runner, the assist or the scorer. I'm sure there was at least one, but I'd love for you to point me to a few instances where this occurred. If he's as average as you're claiming, I'd assume you'd have several of those to point at, or at least very close chances where the finish let our opponents down. Situations like the one you mentioned which resulted in the CBs calmly mopping up behind Lucas may have other influences - such as Lucas reading the game and deciding the CBs were in position to make the play, which was proven pretty clearly right by the result.

I guess my overall point is that in the last 3-4 years of watching games, I've never seen the problem that you're mentioning, I've never seen another poster in the LFC section mention having noticed it, and I've never noticed fans of other teams mention it either. You really seem to be the only one slating Lucas, and it's for a problem you can't seem to direct me to examples of. I'm all for being proven wrong, but needless pessimism bothers me, we have enough to be down about these days without extra complaints.

Another agenda driven fool hating on probably our most important player. Seriously if you don't rate Lucas by now then it's purely just hatred and nothing more.

stevieg8 wrote:

El Jefe wrote:There are no statistics for being out of position or for missing interceptions. I've said this before on this forum. It's easy to win lots and lots of tackles when you're a ball chaser. He'll abandon his position so often in a match that he's bound to win it a few times. That doesn't make him a good DM. His job is to protect the defence but he doesn't do it.

He looked okay against Stoke because they don't run from midfield and they don't have forwards with any movement. He could deal with it because everything was in front of him. When Villa started being a bit more adventurous he was horrendous. Look at the incident in the first half where Bacuna was running at our defence, he stepped inside Agger and was tackled by Toure, that came directly from Lucas not tracking him. It's this sort of thing that gets ignored because it's not recorded by stats.

In regards to the stats, I'm not sure how you can slate him on interceptions when he's consistently near the top of the league in that category, as I mentioned.  I guess there's always room to do better, but I'd be very surprised if M'Vila - a player still in France, who is widely regarded as a failure when considering his potential - could top those numbers.  Or anyone else, to be honest, considering how Lucas consistently puts himself in the elite tiers.

But regardless, that's why I mentioned the eye test.  Footy isn't really a statistical game, so you have to combine the two, and I can't remember a single goal in recent years where Lucas was directly responsible for the runner, the assist or the scorer.  I'm sure there was at least one, but I'd love for you to point me to a few instances where this occurred.  If he's as average as you're claiming, I'd assume you'd have several of those to point at, or at least very close chances where the finish let our opponents down.  Situations like the one you mentioned which resulted in the CBs calmly mopping up behind Lucas may have other influences - such as Lucas reading the game and deciding the CBs were in position to make the play, which was proven pretty clearly right by the result.

I guess my overall point is that in the last 3-4 years of watching games, I've never seen the problem that you're mentioning, I've never seen another poster in the LFC section mention having noticed it, and I've never noticed fans of other teams mention it either.  You really seem to be the only one slating Lucas, and it's for a problem you can't seem to direct me to examples of.  I'm all for being proven wrong, but needless pessimism bothers me, we have enough to be down about these days without extra complaints.

I'm not slating him on interceptions, I'm saying it's not a good indication of being a good DM. So whether M'Vila could top those numbers or not is irrelevant. He probably wouldn't because he's not a ball chaser like Lucas. Also, M'Vila is in Russia now. Catch up.

Looking at his last 6 months, he was miles out of position when Lukaku scored at Anfield. Morrison ran through the middle and he was literally nowhere to be seen. Another was Jay Rodriguez' goal at St.Mary's, again the opposition get a free run at our defence because he was out of position.

And if it was Lucas' judgement that meant he let Bacuna run at Agger, his judgement is wrong. It's his job to make sure that doesn't happen.

McAgger wrote:Another agenda driven fool hating on probably our most important player. Seriously if you don't rate Lucas by now then it's purely just hatred and nothing more.

Most important player? Don't talk shite.

"There are no statistics for missing interceptions"

I think that statistic is called "interceptions." You see, when you miss interceptions, your total number of interceptions go down. If another player would've made those interceptions, they would have more interceptions than you. So whether or not another player would produce more IS relevant. Statistics are not the be all, but they definitely can give a good indication.

Also, you said he gets tackles by being a ball chaser - which makes sense. But interceptions from chasing the ball? Not as logical. As you pointed out, being a ball chaser would leave you out of position, hurting your interceptions total. So again, the statistic is relevant, and changing your point after I respond to it doesn't make what I said any less true.

So to get to the two examples you provided, the first one (Lukaku at Anfield) came in the 90th minute of a game we were trailing 1-0. If you want our DM sitting on the halfway line in that situation instead of joining the attack for an equalizer, than I guess we just have differing opinions of what this team should be trying for. Personally, I prefer points to goal differential, but I guess you'd rather we lose 1-0 than risk allowing an extra goal for a better chance at that draw. That being said, Lucas still made it all the way back (during a speedy counterattack which took less than 10 seconds to traverse the entire field) in time to hassle the passer; Lukaku was forced wide, and was still able to turn Agger before shooting directly at Reina. On that play, Lucas is the least of my concerns defensively.

The Jay Rodriguez goal I genuinely have no idea what you were talking about. Lucas wasn't out of position, he was alongside Rodriguez through the entire run. He had clear support from Skrtel, who was in the exact spot that Rodriguez was running to, and I guess chose not to challenge him from alongside so as not to risk a foul. Sure, maybe the wrong decision, but considering the positioning of both sides' players (Skrtel in position to make a play, no Southampton players nearby in support), it seems he went with the low risk choice and it didn't work - again, due to shoddy defending (Skrtel allowing Rodriguez to walk past him) and Reina fumbling another shot straight at him. Once again, Lucas is the least of my worries, but even if I were to criticize him, it certainly wouldn't be for his positioning. He was in the correct spot for that play, and my only criticism would be that he opted to force Rodriguez straight at our defender rather than go for the ball.

Look, if you think Lucas should be in position to breakup every attack from midfield, and that he shouldn't be making tactical decisions about when to force the attackers into tight areas against our defense but rather winning the ball himself consistently, I guess we'll just agree to disagree. That sounds like a fairly simplistic view of how football is played, though, and seems to lack any broader view of how the three midfielders are used and relate to the defense in BR's system. Regardless, I think I speak for every other LFC fan on this forum (and the several other communities I check up on) when I say that if we focus on a starting DM in this last week of the window rather than areas of real need, I will be incredibly frustrated with our leadership and have serious questions about their priorities in the market. Thankfully, as you've pointed out, we have no links to new DMs and seem comfortable entering the season with a man who most Liverpool fans agree IS our most important player, and most neutrals seem to rank in the top 3 DMs in the league.

stevieg8 wrote:"There are no statistics for missing interceptions"

I think that statistic is called "interceptions."  You see, when you miss interceptions, your total number of interceptions go down.  If another player would've made those interceptions, they would have more interceptions than you.  So whether or not another player would produce more IS relevant.  Statistics are not the be all, but they definitely can give a good indication.

Also, you said he gets tackles by being a ball chaser - which makes sense.  But interceptions from chasing the ball?  Not as logical.  As you pointed out, being a ball chaser would leave you out of position, hurting your interceptions total.  So again, the statistic is relevant, and changing your point after I respond to it doesn't make what I said any less true.

"You see, when you miss interceptions, your total number of interceptions go down."

HAHAHA that is unreal, no they don't! If a player has made 1 interception and then misses an interception, he has still made 1 interception. It doesn't go down. It stays the same.  And he makes a lot of interceptions because he steps out of position a lot, so it is logical.

stevieg8 wrote:So to get to the two examples you provided, the first one (Lukaku at Anfield) came in the 90th minute of a game we were trailing 1-0.  If you want our DM sitting on the halfway line in that situation instead of joining the attack for an equalizer, than I guess we just have differing opinions of what this team should be trying for.  Personally, I prefer points to goal differential, but I guess you'd rather we lose 1-0 than risk allowing an extra goal for a better chance at that draw.  That being said, Lucas still made it all the way back (during a speedy counterattack which took less than 10 seconds to traverse the entire field) in time to hassle the passer; Lukaku was forced wide, and was still able to turn Agger before shooting directly at Reina.  On that play, Lucas is the least of my concerns defensively.

No matter what the score or situation the DM should not be allowing anyone to run through the middle of the pitch at the defence. It's about balancing risk and reward, I don't mind him moving forward but he shouldn't be out on the left wing allowing for that to happen.

Look how far away he is:



Awful positioning. He'd rushed off to close down that man that's about 10 yards behind him, despite the fact that Enrique was in a good position to press.

And you might want to stop lying, because he did not hassle the passer. Morrison was in acres, Lucas was no where near him. Nowhere.



This is when Morrison is about to release the pass, no sign of Lucas.



Another picture shows THREE players who could easily have ran straight through. THREE.

stevieg8 wrote:The Jay Rodriguez goal I genuinely have no idea what you were talking about.  Lucas wasn't out of position, he was alongside Rodriguez through the entire run.  He had clear support from Skrtel, who was in the exact spot that Rodriguez was running to, and I guess chose not to challenge him from alongside so as not to risk a foul.  Sure, maybe the wrong decision, but considering the positioning of both sides' players (Skrtel in position to make a play, no Southampton players nearby in support), it seems he went with the low risk choice and it didn't work - again, due to shoddy defending (Skrtel allowing Rodriguez to walk past him) and Reina fumbling another shot straight at him.  Once again, Lucas is the least of my worries, but even if I were to criticize him, it certainly wouldn't be for his positioning.  He was in the correct spot for that play, and my only criticism would be that he opted to force Rodriguez straight at our defender rather than go for the ball.

Wasn't out of position? How about this for a starting position?



He should be a lot deeper so he can see people dropping into space. He has no idea Rodriguez is there. If he was Masch and had the pace to get across it wouldn't be so bad, but he doesn't. So as soon as Rodriguez picks that ball up he's fighting a losing battle because he was already too far from where he should be.



As you can see he's actually not doing too badly here, the pass into Rodriguez was slow, he has a chance to recover from his positional error.



But no, within 25 yards Rodriguez has got goal side, despite not being at stop speed because he was dribbling. This picture even shows a pathetic attempt at a tackle, hanging a leg out whilst he jogs into our area.

stevieg8 wrote:Look, if you think Lucas should be in position to breakup every attack from midfield, and that he shouldn't be making tactical decisions about when to force the attackers into tight areas against our defense but rather winning the ball himself consistently, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.  That sounds like a fairly simplistic view of how football is played, though, and seems to lack any broader view of how the three midfielders are used and relate to the defense in BR's system.  Regardless, I think I speak for every other LFC fan on this forum (and the several other communities I check up on) when I say that if we focus on a starting DM in this last week of the window rather than areas of real need, I will be incredibly frustrated with our leadership and have serious questions about their priorities in the market.  Thankfully, as you've pointed out, we have no links to new DMs and seem comfortable entering the season with a man who most Liverpool fans agree IS our most important player, and most neutrals seem to rank in the top 3 DMs in the league.

I agree that he should be making tactical decisions as to when to force runners into right areas, but these 2 incidents don't show that. Also, when shepherding runners he shouldn't be showing them to the heart of our defence. He should look at Busquets, takes them away from goal, into the channels, they shouldn't be able to get a shot away.

I think Rodgers is spot-on in seeking a goal-scoring player. Even in our best XI, we have just two proven scorers. While Aspas, Borini, Gerrard, Henderson & Coutinho can contribute 40-50 goals; if any of them fails, we can't expect any better than 6th.

We had one of the most productive attacks in the PL and Europe last season. It isn't goal scoring that's keeping us from properly challenging the top 4 or 5, its keeping goals out.

i think it also has to do with mentality-whether keeping goals out OR converting those draws into narrow wins, as BR often speaks about it, at least I am kind of convinced about it.

If we get the two CBs we're linked with and all 4 of Agger/Toure/Sakho/Ilori are fit throughout the season I really wouldn't mind playing 3 at the back. We'll be much stronger and that way we can push Johnson, the defensive liability, up the pitch to do what he does best really which is attack.

Something like wouldn't be bad at all in my eyes.

Hendo will be more of a LM, LCM, with Agger moving to the left if need be to turn into 4 at the back. Where as Johnson on the opposite flank playing RWB/RB. IT allows Coutinho to play in the middle and both Suarez and Sturridge up top.

Would prefer switching Johnson and Hendo in that formation, think Johnson is better at LB than RB anyway so he'd probably be good up and down the left. Also Johnson RWB/RM and Cissokho LWB/LM would give better balance, unless we're talking about for Sunday.

Back 3 is interesting though, Rodgers said it was his ideal formation when he met with fans about a year ago. Could see a bit more of it this year.

RedOranje wrote:We had one of the most productive attacks in the PL and Europe last season. It isn't goal scoring that's keeping us from properly challenging the top 4 or 5, its keeping goals out.

Of the six teams that finished above us, three (MU/86, Chelsea/75, Arsenal/72) scored more than Liverpool (71). Only one team (Spurs/46) conceded more than Liverpool (43). Four teams (MU/43, City/32, Chelsea/36 & Arsenal/35) had better GD than Liverpool (28).

Bulk of our goals came from a single player. While defence needed improvement, the strike-force wasn't any better.

I told people we needed upgrade(s) in midfield.

Really hope we get a DM in January.

Badly missing the calming influence and assured possession Downing offered us in opposition's final third last year.

Downing's shit. A centre mid in Henderson is doing his role, and doing it better. Even then, Henderson needs to be improved upon. He's not very good on the right.

We needed creativity and Eriksen was available. He was overlooked even when after he was keen to join the club. Why? I don't know.

But I do know we bought Ilori for 7m and Luis Alberto for around the same and they're not going to get much game time as they're young and inexperienced. Eriksen went for 10 and would of guided us to CL so it was definitely not for financial reasons.

Yeah, it does look like we missed a trick in not signing Eriksen, but I suppose Rodgers wanted a more attacking player than him, more a goalscorer.

Sepi wrote:Badly missing the calming influence and assured possession Downing offered us in opposition's final third last year.

Well, it's a little early to say, but I have liked what I've seen of Sterling so far this season. His dribbling has gotten wiser, he's not naively losing the ball as often as last season. Against Southampton he hold the ball up brilliantly, got us moving a bit and got the Soton defenders moving about out there. In my opinion he is also much more a Rodgers type of a winger than Downing was. Not as conservative. If we want to open up opposition defences with clever little passes onto good runs and dangerous dribbles, that's Sterling right there. Sure Downing got us some possession, too, in attack, but that's pretty much all he did.

El Jefe wrote:

stevieg8 wrote:"There are no statistics for missing interceptions"

I think that statistic is called "interceptions."  You see, when you miss interceptions, your total number of interceptions go down.  If another player would've made those interceptions, they would have more interceptions than you.  So whether or not another player would produce more IS relevant.  Statistics are not the be all, but they definitely can give a good indication.

Also, you said he gets tackles by being a ball chaser - which makes sense.  But interceptions from chasing the ball?  Not as logical.  As you pointed out, being a ball chaser would leave you out of position, hurting your interceptions total.  So again, the statistic is relevant, and changing your point after I respond to it doesn't make what I said any less true.

"You see, when you miss interceptions, your total number of interceptions go down."

HAHAHA that is unreal, no they don't! If a player has made 1 interception and then misses an interception, he has still made 1 interception. It doesn't go down. It stays the same.  And he makes a lot of interceptions because he steps out of position a lot, so it is logical.

stevieg8 wrote:So to get to the two examples you provided, the first one (Lukaku at Anfield) came in the 90th minute of a game we were trailing 1-0.  If you want our DM sitting on the halfway line in that situation instead of joining the attack for an equalizer, than I guess we just have differing opinions of what this team should be trying for.  Personally, I prefer points to goal differential, but I guess you'd rather we lose 1-0 than risk allowing an extra goal for a better chance at that draw.  That being said, Lucas still made it all the way back (during a speedy counterattack which took less than 10 seconds to traverse the entire field) in time to hassle the passer; Lukaku was forced wide, and was still able to turn Agger before shooting directly at Reina.  On that play, Lucas is the least of my concerns defensively.

No matter what the score or situation the DM should not be allowing anyone to run through the middle of the pitch at the defence. It's about balancing risk and reward, I don't mind him moving forward but he shouldn't be out on the left wing allowing for that to happen.

Look how far away he is:



Awful positioning. He'd rushed off to close down that man that's about 10 yards behind him, despite the fact that Enrique was in a good position to press.

And you might want to stop lying, because he did not hassle the passer. Morrison was in acres, Lucas was no where near him. Nowhere.



This is when Morrison is about to release the pass, no sign of Lucas.



Another picture shows THREE players who could easily have ran straight through. THREE.

stevieg8 wrote:The Jay Rodriguez goal I genuinely have no idea what you were talking about.  Lucas wasn't out of position, he was alongside Rodriguez through the entire run.  He had clear support from Skrtel, who was in the exact spot that Rodriguez was running to, and I guess chose not to challenge him from alongside so as not to risk a foul.  Sure, maybe the wrong decision, but considering the positioning of both sides' players (Skrtel in position to make a play, no Southampton players nearby in support), it seems he went with the low risk choice and it didn't work - again, due to shoddy defending (Skrtel allowing Rodriguez to walk past him) and Reina fumbling another shot straight at him.  Once again, Lucas is the least of my worries, but even if I were to criticize him, it certainly wouldn't be for his positioning.  He was in the correct spot for that play, and my only criticism would be that he opted to force Rodriguez straight at our defender rather than go for the ball.

Wasn't out of position? How about this for a starting position?



He should be a lot deeper so he can see people dropping into space. He has no idea Rodriguez is there. If he was Masch and had the pace to get across it wouldn't be so bad, but he doesn't. So as soon as Rodriguez picks that ball up he's fighting a losing battle because he was already too far from where he should be.



As you can see he's actually not doing too badly here, the pass into Rodriguez was slow, he has a chance to recover from his positional error.



But no, within 25 yards Rodriguez has got goal side, despite not being at stop speed because he was dribbling. This picture even shows a pathetic attempt at a tackle, hanging a leg out whilst he jogs into our area.

stevieg8 wrote:Look, if you think Lucas should be in position to breakup every attack from midfield, and that he shouldn't be making tactical decisions about when to force the attackers into tight areas against our defense but rather winning the ball himself consistently, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.  That sounds like a fairly simplistic view of how football is played, though, and seems to lack any broader view of how the three midfielders are used and relate to the defense in BR's system.  Regardless, I think I speak for every other LFC fan on this forum (and the several other communities I check up on) when I say that if we focus on a starting DM in this last week of the window rather than areas of real need, I will be incredibly frustrated with our leadership and have serious questions about their priorities in the market.  Thankfully, as you've pointed out, we have no links to new DMs and seem comfortable entering the season with a man who most Liverpool fans agree IS our most important player, and most neutrals seem to rank in the top 3 DMs in the league.

I agree that he should be making tactical decisions as to when to force runners into right areas, but these 2 incidents don't show that. Also, when shepherding runners he shouldn't be showing them to the heart of our defence. He should look at Busquets, takes them away from goal, into the channels, they shouldn't be able to get a shot away.

can not renumber the Stoke City game from last year but the Southampton game you did just like match of the day pick Lucas has the player in wrong for that goal but if watch the match back again

Gerrard had lost the ball & did not run back into position what meant Lucas had to come out of position to cover Gerrard what end up Lucas doing a 2 man job,

& that was the story a lot last year Gerrard let runner go past him & keep away possession,

now if had a player next to Lucas doing his job as central midfielder, we would not have runners going past Lucas nor Lucas been out of position

A team
----------Mignolet-------
Glen---Touré--Sakho---Aly--
Mose--Lucas--Jordan--Coutinho
----------Suárez-----
---------Sturridge------

B team
------------?--
?------Ilori-----Agger---Enrique
Luis---Gerrard--Allen----Sterling--
------------Aspas----
-------------?---

Gerrard in the B team?

He had ONE poor game, and that was because A) we were playing CBs in fullback positions and B) there was NO movement in the final third so he couldn't exactly pass it forward. Some of you have to get off RAWK.

And Skrtel doesn't even make the B team and Ilori gets the nod over him... what?