Beckenbauer : "Buffon looked like a pensioner"

Ouch

Franz doesn't hold back does he

Bit unfair IMO as Buffon kept the score down to a respectable standard as far as i'm concerned.

dostoevsky wrote:

The Franchise wrote:I got to watch this game earlier today, so im late but I felt Juve's biggest problem was up front.

Bayern's pressing Juve struggled with and often are realising the difficulty of playing out through the middle, they went very direct with balls straight to the strikers.

A decent enough plan.

The problem was those balls are like 50-50, thats why controlling possession is so important as much as people want dismiss it as "just possession". Where your possession is however is the crucial part of it.

Of the balls the strikers did win, it was pretty amazing how quickly Juve continued to go forward. I understood it, Bayern were playing a risky game of 2 v 2 at the back and Juve's striker did move well, but many of the sequences of play were basically:

Ball up to Quag who had dropped off, Vidal had made a run from deep, Matri had made a run into a channel towards goal. Quag played it one touch to Vidal who played it one touch to Matri. Fast paced and it looked dangerous, but in rarely ever worked, high degree of difficulty balls. I was dissapointed that at no point did either of the strikers think to actually hold on to the ball, take another touch and actually slow the pace down in the final third. Everything was too direct, they arrived at the goal too early without not enough numbers.

They improved in the second after the subs, they actually started holding on to the ball up there a bit and they got a couple shots off.

Also struggled defensively, the wingbacks were forced back to defend Robben and Ribery but neither were really stopped, Ribery especially was a nightmare.

Overall, Bayern's pressing lead by Mandzukic and and play from the Ribery mostly and Robben to a lesser degree where what they really used to dominate. I found it intresting just how little they attack through the middle, which was probably smart given the numbers Juve had there naturally.

That being said, despite the relative domination and control, Bayerns second goal should of never stood.

I couldn't agree more with what you've written, I watched the game on delay without knowing the result and it was highly frustrating to watch Juventus play in such a manner, seemingly looking for a Hollywood counter-attack rather than pushing up as a team, establishing possession and trying to hem Bayern into their half. Whether Conte was not too displeased even at 1-0 or whether the occasion just got to Matri and Quagliarella I can't know, however Juventus rarely had a period in the match where they were able to relieve the constant pressure on their backline.

The point that you raised concerning Bayern's wingplay is very interesting, in that while I wholeheartedly agree that it allowed Bayern to dominate, my initial reaction to Kroos' injury was that it would aid Juventus' attempts to break down the wings in turn and perhaps establish greater control in the middle, however if anything, Juventus' best period in the match came from the time after conceding immediately until Kroos' injury. Robben may not have been the most efficient player in terms of his use of possession and he undoubtedly missed several excellent opportunities to kill the game, however he took advantage of the lack of pace down Juventus' left hand side and the interchange of position between Mueller and Ribery that resulted as Thomas was shifted centrally to replace Kroos was used to great effect.

It's a pity that Juventus return to Torino 2-0 down to a goal that shouldn't have counted, however regardless of the scoreline, they need a vast turn around in intensity and approach in order to make the matter even remotely relevant. An early goal, regardless of the team faced and the advantage held, conjures all of the nerves and fears from the opposition, Juventus need to go hard from the start in Torino. I'd personally like to see a 4-3-3 used, though I find it hard to imagine that Conte will shift from his beloved 3-5-2. Vucinic must certainly start though.

Pogba for Vidal will be certain, though I imagine it will be a toss-up between Isla, Caceres and Padoin for a spot on the right. Isla is the most talented player, however given that he is still finding form after a horrible injury, I would probably be looking to Caceres to replace Lichsteiner. If only two strikers are fielded then I would retain one of Matri or Quagliarella to play beside Vucinic.

There's obviously no shame in losing to such a great Bayern Munich side, however no Juventus fan should be happy about the manner in which they went down. Only Vidal looked worthy of the shirt yesterday, for the sake of the fans I hope we see something of a response next week, I do hate to see a tie end with a whimper.

Indeed.

I dont want to be too disrespectful of Matri and Quag, but my feeling was it was their quality rather than the occassion that got to them.

It just seemed akward, Matri seemingly making a poor touch every second time and him not having explosive pace to get away from anyone. Quag looked sort of lost, dropped deep but couldnt make a good pass but too far from goal to shoot.

Agree about that spell of play after the goal and before the injury. Robben as you said isnt very effective, but his speed alone, it took 2 people to actually stop him which only forced Juve further back in the hope of protecting.

The goal really set Juve back and I feel like we didnt see the real Juve at all, they are far more smart and talented than they showed.

Agree about the possible selection, its a shame the game is away from them at 2-0..meaning, they really have to do something. At 2-1 they could of waited and stolen a goal regardless of how the game is panning out. But 2-0 down you imagine they actually have to put on a commanding performance which entails risk, especially if you consider they might have to make selection decisions in at least 2 positions (striker and rightback).

The Franchise wrote:Oh and Conte did try and change to a lobsided 442 with the sub of Pogba. But with Chiellini at leftback and Marc playing a tucked in leftmidfielder, you had not width down there. Perhaps a lack of a real leftback is a issue in the squad.

One would assume that the usual wingback in the 3-5-2 should be the first choice fullback in a back four. Problem is though even their wingbacks are not players I would consider typical attacking fullbacks.

As for the strikers not holding on to the ball I'd have to agree. Just the other day I saw a video explaining Juventus's use of triangles between their strikers/wingbacks/midfielders to keep the ball and create attacking chances. There was not very much of that last night and you have to wonder whether or not it was because the team they were up against was not going to let them have any easy passes available in the attacking half. Juve's biggest results came against teams that let them get away with that.

As for the 50/50 long balls I think it was worth a shot, especially when it was 2v2. Sure those don't always come off and it is better to mix it up but for Juventus the away goal should have been the priority especially after conceding an early goal. I understand the reason why they tried to be as direct as they were, they really wanted that away goal. They should have been smarter about it though.

Our players deserve major criticism. Hopefully they will be motivated to perform better.

Losing I can live with, it's part of football. But creating less infront of goal than pretty much any other team Bayern have played in the CL? Unacceptable.

We definitely shouldn't pat the players on the back and say better luck next time. They deserve a media shit storm to wake them up. The intensity levels only existed straight after Alaba's goal. And i'm sick of Juve going 1-0 down to deflections. The deflection itsself is purely unlucky. But perhaps we need to get properly infront of the man shooting or Buffon has to make a call.

If you follow Juventus you'll have seen 7 or 8 goals we've let in in the past season and a half from a harmless shot being curved past Buffon via deflection.

This game aside, I expect a much more intense Juventus from GK to CF. Terrible way to lose a game. Conte has no faith in our players in Europe. He doesn't allow us to play our own game.

I thought Conte was just taking pressure off our players by saying we're not better than any team we've come up against bar Nordsjaelland. But now I think he believes it too.

And until he lets Juventus play like we can play instead of super-catenaccio, we'll continue to be spanked by Europes Elite. Our defence might be great, but no defence can spend the best part of 90 minutes breaking up attack after attack after attack from a top team.

Strange from Beckenbaeur has he has praised Buffon in the past more than most Italian figures. Was it his disappointment in what he expects from him? Said in a humorous manner?

Arquitecto wrote:Strange from Beckenbaeur has he has praised Buffon in the past more than most Italian figures. Was it his disappointment in what he expects from him? Said in a humorous manner?

It was like a "I'm sorry but he was pretty bad" sort of comment.

Zealous wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Oh and Conte did try and change to a lobsided 442 with the sub of Pogba. But with Chiellini at leftback and Marc playing a tucked in leftmidfielder, you had not width down there. Perhaps a lack of a real leftback is a issue in the squad.

One would assume that the usual wingback in the 3-5-2 should be the first choice fullback in a back four. Problem is though even their wingbacks are not players I would consider typical attacking fullbacks.

As for the strikers not holding on to the ball I'd have to agree. Just the other day I saw a video explaining Juventus's use of triangles between their strikers/wingbacks/midfielders to keep the ball and create attacking chances. There was not very much of that last night and you have to wonder whether or not it was because the team they were up against was not going to let them have any easy passes available in the attacking half. Juve's biggest results came against teams that let them get away with that.

As for the 50/50 long balls I think it was worth a shot, especially when it was 2v2. Sure those don't always come off and it is better to mix it up but for Juventus the away goal should have been the priority especially after conceding an early goal. I understand the reason why they tried to be as direct as they were, they really wanted that away goal. They should have been smarter about it though.

True, I wouldnt call Asamoah a leftback either. As I said, I think they should think about a true leftback. I find it odd they have like 3 different rightback options all of which are viable and like 1 and half leftbacks and none of them are leftbacks.

As for those triangles, I would also venture a guess that the best traingles we saw in that video came when Vucinic was involved. To me he is much better at that than Matri or Quad. I also think Giovinco while flawed in other ways, is better at that. Both of them would of been better served in a game like that, where you need skill, composure and a little bit of ability to keep the ball in tight space.

I agree, I felt the 50-50's were a decent way considering they couldnt get out from the back well. If they could advance from the back and play into midfield, I would never say that...thats not how I think you suppose to play, based on 50-50's.

But the struggle to get the ball out safely was so big that combined with Bayerns risky 2 v 2, you have to do it, its almost crazy not to. The problem was though they went direct up front, but then they went direct again once they reached that area. Arrived at the goal far too quick, didnt give any wingback or midfielder to get ahead of the ball.

The one time they did, Vucinic was on the pitch, he held the ball, played a pass sideways and low and behold, they got a great chance.

It frightens me how we Juventus football club don't have a good left-back or more than 1 striker who understands the game.

What happened to PDC? Just not good enough?

Now that I've read the thread, I think some issues deserve comment, though the more elaborate posters already dismissed them, as they should have been:

1) "The early goal changed the game".
False.
Bayern continued pushing for that 2nd goal as much as they would have pushed for a 1st goal. They did not change their game plan. Conte obviously didn't have Juve change their plan either, so it really did not change anything, except for the result.

2) "Mandzukic was bad and/or offside"
First off, Mandzukic was f*cking brilliant yesterday. He did not score, but he did terrorize that defense so hard, that Chiellini ended up looking so clumsy, any other ref would've sent him off. He had his elbow in Mandzukics face during every aerial duel, and once he realized that this ref wouldn't give out a yellow for anything short of murder, he started actually grabbing Mandzukic, even in the box, and at one point shoved his hand straight in his face. This is an instant yellow with 90% of refs.

Mandzukic was offside, this is true. But come on. It wasn't clear. His feet were perfectly onside, it was just that he was leaning forward, so his head was offside. This technically makes him offside, so I agree with that. But it wasn't clear, and you really can't blame the linesmen for not seeing it. There was nothing blatant or obvious about that offfside.

3) "Müller isn't of much use besides his goal".
Whoever said that can go eat a bag of dicks. No, bro, I love you, just kidding, but you're wrong.
False as hell.
Müller delivered two perfect scoring opportunities, and that Robben and Mandzukic didn't finish them is hardly his fault. His runs were smart as always, and I saw him intercept or tackle Juve forwards close to the Bayern goal at least 3 times that I remember, he probably did it more often than that.

4) "Ribéry should've been sent off."
True.
But remember that Vidal had zero business still being on that pitch at the time. He horror-tackled Alaba once, Ribéry twice. Each of those was a perfectly good yellow, yet he didn't get one. The one on Alaba could've been a red without there being much complaining to be done. He also axed Mandzukic and Schweinsteiger.
Granted, that Ribéry foul was probably the worst of the evening, but he did just one. Vidal got away with like 4 or 5 that were almost as bad. He had no business still being on the pitch.

5) "The calls went Bayerns way."
False.
Bayern got a break when Mandzukic was waved onside, so that's regrettable, on the other hand Bayern didn't get a penalty when Chiellini basically dive-tackled Mandzukic in the box during a corner. So let's not split hairs.
The ref did let the Juve players get away with, basically, murder. For the first 60 minutes or so every call went Juves way. Only after that did I see improvement. For the last 30 minutes he was okay. All in all pretty bad refereeing performance, though I think it's great in the end that so little yellows were handed out, I hate it when teams head into UCL matches with half their squad suspended.
(Vidal and Lichtsteiner still deserved it though, they were dirty as hell.)


My take on the match is, that Bayern still need to be careful. They wasted a hell of a lot of chances, and that they "only" scored two is actually huge wastefulness. They could (should?) have scored more. Not conceding a goal was great, but they really were wasteful, and if they want to win the cup, they need to be more clinical. Juve had a bad day and couldn'T deal with the movement of the Bayern forwards, but other teams will not give them that many scoring chances.
Juve themselves will probably play better in the return leg (not too hard anyway^^) - and a Bayern loss due to wastefulness is entirely feasible. I do not see Juve overturning the result though. Not scoring an away goal is a huge loss.
And it seemed unnecessary.

The few minutes Juve actually pressed Bayern high up the pitch they looked great. I was sure Bayern would concede in that time. But then Bayern rallyed and Juve were intimidated again, and sat back again, even though they were 1-0 down and needed an away goal.

I'm with Arq here, Conte screwed up.

Oh and its a shame Llorente is a transfer window too late. I think a game like yesturday he would of really really helped you in. All those 50-50s to him are 80-20's and he keeps the ball real well after that too.

He's a really bad player. His positioning is pretty awful, he can't pass a ball and he's too dependant on his athleticism to bail him out. That being said I would have probably used him over Peluso. An Atalanta scrub who got thrown in the deep end against Lahm and Robben. That's just an awful call from Coach Conte.

And note when I'm calling a player bad or poor i'm speaking in terms of what you would expect at a top club. Our worst players would have no problem in the Europa league for example.

EDIT: Llorente and a fit Vucinic would have made the team look better and alleviate the constant pressure on the back 3/5.


I've seen quite a lot of Llorente particularly last season when I enjoyed watching Bilbao. He has a sound techincal game and is frightening in the air.

Tactical problems isn't the only reason why Juve lost. Bayern deserve credit too for making Juve play the way they did.

It was van Buyten who Chiellini dive-tackled in the box, not Mandzukic, my fault. I won't edit it so you can all see how massively wrong I was in that point. Because everything seems even truer by comparison. Because I'm just that right with everything else.

I think Juve could have gotten a better player than Llorente. He's on a similar level to Vucinic etc. They could have gotten someone better like Cavani, Falcao etc. However I guess they just didn't want to spend a lot of money.

VivaStPauli wrote:It was van Buyten who Chiellini dive-tackled in the box, not Mandzukic, my fault. I won't edit it so you can all see how massively wrong I was in that point. Because everything seems even truer by comparison. Because I'm just that right with everything else.

That could have been a (soft) penalty. But Lichtsteiner being completely blocked off could have equally been a (soft) penalty.

At the end of the day Bayern were better. Bayerns coach was better, Bayerns team was better. But Juventus thanks in part to Conte are playing with fear in Europe.

That being said, Conte is new to this level and has been a godsend for us.

Cavani is nearly impossible, Falcao would have been equally invisible to Matri last night except for hold up play. You can make all the intelligent runs in the world but you're not getting any service when your deep-lying playmaker is playing the role of Felipe Melo and your wing-backs are being pinned back by 2 wide men.

VivaStPauli wrote:Now that I've read the thread, I think some issues deserve comment, though the more elaborate posters already dismissed them, as they should have been:

1) "The early goal changed the game".
False.
Bayern continued pushing for that 2nd goal as much as they would have pushed for a 1st goal. They did not change their game plan. Conte obviously didn't have Juve change their plan either, so it really did not change anything, except for the result.

2) "Mandzukic was bad and/or offside"
First off, Mandzukic was f*cking brilliant yesterday. He did not score, but he did terrorize that defense so hard, that Chiellini ended up looking so clumsy, any other ref would've sent him off. He had his elbow in Mandzukics face during every aerial duel, and once he realized that this ref wouldn't give out a yellow for anything short of murder, he started actually grabbing Mandzukic, even in the box, and at one point shoved his hand straight in his face. This is an instant yellow with 90% of refs.

Mandzukic was offside, this is true. But come on. It wasn't clear. His feet were perfectly onside, it was just that he was leaning forward, so his head was offside. This technically makes him offside, so I agree with that. But it wasn't clear, and you really can't blame the linesmen for not seeing it. There was nothing blatant or obvious about that offfside.

.

Disagree.

First of all, it might not have changed anything for Bayern but your only talking about Bayern. It changed things for Juve on 2 levels.

First of all, it was a shock and blow to their confidence. The night has started bad for us already..this is gonna be trouble. Second, away from home the longer you go without letting in a goal the more the home side gets frustrated. Thats just football.

As for the offside I dont agree. I knew straight away he was offside, he looked way more offside then he actually was and when its like the linesman usually flags just out of safety...which is wrong too but what usually happens.

As for the offside, I seen a freeze frame, he was offside. It was closer than it looked though. Linesman might have given it had Muller not been literally right infront of him.

Poor officiating but what's new?

I'm actually concerned for Ribery. Vidal was making fun of his blatant dives all game and then Ribery went in with that challenge and started acting all hard after the game like "I showed that mofo". I fully expect Ribery to get some really bad challenges in the second leg, at least if I were a Juve player this is what I would suggest to the rest of the team.

@ Dani

Yeah Vucinic was probably the one who should have started based on that fact. Thing is though (based on the video at least) for the triangle to work the other striker had to make runs in behind to create space and a passing option. Neither Matri or Quagliarella looked up for it so like you said Giovinco should have probably played as well (even though him playing creates different problems for Juve the most obvious one being the long balls stop being effective with Giovinco on)

AbraKebabra Alacalamb wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:It was van Buyten who Chiellini dive-tackled in the box, not Mandzukic, my fault. I won't edit it so you can all see how massively wrong I was in that point. Because everything seems even truer by comparison. Because I'm just that right with everything else.

That could have been a (soft) penalty. But Lichtsteiner being completely blocked off could have equally been a (soft) penalty.

At the end of the day Bayern were better. Bayerns coach was better, Bayerns team was better. But Juventus thanks in part to Conte are playing with fear in Europe.

That being said, Conte is new to this level and has been a godsend for us.

Oh sure, I don't mean to say that Bayern should've definitely gotten a penalty. I just think it's just as much luck that the ref didn't give a penalty, as it is bad luck that the linesman called Mandzukic onside. It evened out in my point.

I was mentioning the "potential penalty" more to illustrate how bad Chiellini was, not to cry about Bayern deserving a penalty. Who knows if they would've scored anyway, they were horrible at finishing yesterday. I just thought it was a risky move by Chiellini, and it deserved to be pointed out.

Yohan Modric wrote:I think Juve could have gotten a better player than Llorente. He's on a similar level to Vucinic etc. They could have gotten someone better like Cavani, Falcao etc. However I guess they just didn't want to spend a lot of money.

First of all, Juve aint paying no 40-60m.

AbraKebabra Alacalamb wrote:As for the offside, I seen a freeze frame, he was offside. It was closer than it looked though. Linesman might have given it had Muller not been literally right infront of him.

Poor officiating but what's new?

Exactly. He was offisde, but literally by a few inches. So it's not blatant, obvious or anything. The ref and linesmen made tons of mistakes that evening, but I thought this was a forgivable one. Mandzukic looked pretty offside because of the camera perspective, but from level ground it was too close to tell and happened too quickly.

Yes, that goal was illegal. But I understand why the linesman missed it.

I think there are strikers that have better value for money out there that Juventus could have gone for.

Hell they could have signed Mandzukic last summer and he would have added a lot to their attack imo.

Let's not forget Llorente is coming in for free. And Vucinic would have started if he was fit.

Mandzukic would probably not have the same effect for Juve, not in the CL anyway. Mandzukic is an amazing team player, his constant harrasing brings other players into the game so they can score. As good as he is at playing that roll for the team, he's not that much of a goal threat in the CL. I don't think he looked like scoring in a game where our defence was being pounded with pressure.

Mandzukic can hold the ball up to help Ribery, Robben, Muller etc score goals. We don't have a lethal midfielder with that attacking quality to bring into the game. Which is why we need to fill the Del Piero gap as best as possible and have that replacement playing upfront with somebody who can keep the ball and finish his chances. That could very well be Llorente. As for the next TQ/ss we bring in I have no idea.

Well after reading the last 2 pages of the thread, it seams a bit more sense has been made of what actually happened during the match.

I think the biggest, glaring issue is of course the Juventus strikers. The evidence is clear as day and is highlighted by a player like Mandzukic. The guy was able to do the task he was instructed to do, while the juve players were unable to. The difference is quality. The juventus strikers that played yesterday didn't have enough of it, and were subsequently unable to do anything else, because, they lack the individual brilliance to do something outside of the tactical framework.

This tie is far from over though. Juventus are certainly not going to roll over and die in the second leg. Conte is a man manager and will no doubt get them ready to go and firing on all cylinders for the game in Torino. I feel like Pogba starting is going to be the X factor for us.

On the issue of the left back. Its not really a leftback that we play with, but more of a box to box left sided player. No brainer that Peluso can't hang with the big boys, and I think its pretty obvious that Asamoah would have been better. Isla playing on the wrong side could have probably done better as well. I do think that this is an area of concern for juventus. It is able to be covered up in Serie A because of the general lack of true wingers/wing play, but against a team like Bayern or United that utilizes the wings as the point of attack, our weakness on the left is spotlighted.

Im predicting a heartbreaker. 2-1 juventus win in Torino, losing the tie ultimately with the third goal from bayern coming late