Re: 5 Times European Champions vs. Best Team in London

by Red Alert Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:29 am

@JamesPearceEcho: The GK coach had put together a montage pre-match which showed that Lloris always dives to his right at pens. As a result Stevie went left.

Explains why he celebrated with Achterberg.

:bow:

by Art Morte Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:03 am

Arquitecto wrote:

-What bothered me is why we did not press the midfield when we needed to. Lucas had below-par defensive performance but the pressing as a whole was focused far too much on latching on to one man instead of screening the opposition which left numerous gaps in our defence, to which somehow Tottenham did not exploit. Rodger's sub to bring in Allen for Coutinho worked because Allen at least got us to have some semblance of midfield control, but how baffling was it to have our best player of the game subbed off?

ynwa wrote:
I really do felt Henderson should of started. We were dominated in the middle of the pitch and Henderson's work rate would of put us on the front foot as we would of been able to dictate play instead of deciding to play on the counter.

Sturridge I felt was poor. Downing bar his goal was the same. Coutinho and Suarez were incredible for us in the first half.

Yeah. It was a little pointless to have Sturridge up there when we couldn't really offer him service. He mostly received balls a little after the halfway line to run forward with. I felt he did the best he could, but too often our attacks and chance-creation was left solely to our forwards without the midfield able to help out - perhaps excluding Coutinho while he was on.

That's why I would have started Henderson in Sturridge's place. To give us more control in midfield and also freeing up Suarez to play through the middle if we were going to stick to 4-3-3. The line-up and formation we started with would probably have worked better against an easier opposition, but Tottenham had too much quality and we weren't able to impose ourselves upon them.

What comes to pressing that Arq mentioned, Gerrard and Lucas were simply not enough for that against Spurs' quality, especially when Suarez and Sturridge did little to help that pressing in our own half - not that they should've been required to. As soon as Tottenham got the ball across the halfway line and Suarez and Sturridge stayed higher up the pitch, we just didn't have the manpower to press this quite impressive Hotspur side.

So I think Rodgers underestimated Tottenham's midfield, but I understand he's still looking for his ideal line-up for different situations with new players like Sturridge and Coutinho in the squad.

by ExtremistEnigma Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:40 am

ynwa wrote:He did f*ck all lol. And he's still a waste of space. He did nothing bar the goal and was lucky Walker, Vertonghen AND Lloris gifted him the goal. He nearly missed it too... but we got the 3 points. He still shouldn't be playing, mind.

Let's talk stats here.

Highest pass completion with 96%.
Most key passes with 3.
2 accurate crosses out of 3. (No one else had any accurate cross)
100% accurate long balls.
1 goal.

by Arquitecto Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:47 am

ExtremistEnigma wrote:
ynwa wrote:He did f*ck all lol. And he's still a waste of space. He did nothing bar the goal and was lucky Walker, Vertonghen AND Lloris gifted him the goal. He nearly missed it too... but we got the 3 points. He still shouldn't be playing, mind.

Let's talk stats here.

Highest pass completion with 96%.
Most key passes with 3.
2 accurate crosses out of 3. (No one else had any accurate cross)
100% accurate long balls.
1 goal.

Please don't facepalm a fellow Liverpool supporter who also happens to be considerably respected here. Doesn't happen in this section.

1. Pass completion rate does not equal to influence. I can name several useless wingers with superior pass completion rates who influence the game even less than Downing.

2. His key passes equal his senseless crosses or passes into the box which are pretty much hit and hope based on his pathetic overall accuracy rate as a whole. Another useless stat
3. Considering he is the one responsible up front for crossing, that isn't exactly impressive either.
4. 100%? You forgot to tally the number of long balls he took.
5. What the goal that was created by a pure mistake in which he had an open net to score on?

Stats don't work in such arguments.

A 20 year old Coutinho who was subbed off early had more influence than he has in 3 games.

by ExtremistEnigma Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:46 pm

Arquitecto wrote:Please don't facepalm a fellow Liverpool supporter who also happens to be considerably respected here. Doesn't happen in this section.

Sigh. He's an experienced member who is respected here so whatever he says is the last word? Cool. Thumbs up

Downing is an old-school winger but passing is one of his strongest attributes. He's given a job of passing the ball around (since we don't cross the ball) and he's doing a decent job at that. AND THAT'S WHY HE IS GETTING GAMES! Let's face it, I wasn't keen on keeping him back in the summer but I can't take senseless hatred towards a player. Credit must be given where its due. He worked hard against Tottenham. I can't accept things being said like "He did f*ck all lol" to a player who's working his ass off to stay at the club. I wouldn't mind such things being said towards the likes of Carroll, Pacheco etc. but not Downing considering his form since the turn of the year and his sheer determination. I wouldn't mind if he's sold but spouting stuff like "He did f*ck all lol" is pure blasphemy.

by DeletedUser#1 Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:34 pm

I don't care about stats or other shit.

If you had 2 healthy eyes yesterday, you could see Downing was one of the best players on the pitch. Everyone was raving about him in the pub, he got MOTM award from LFC.COM, we were singing "Are you Figo in disguise" all second half.

He gave us an important outlet, stopped BAE from getting forward all game (if you noticed all Spurs attack came form their right side), interchanged well with Suarez and Sturridge......GOT US BACK IN THE GAME. that chance was a lot harder to take than it first looked. His anticipation and run was world class.

In addition to that, when we were 3-2 up, he was our BEST player in keeping the ball and killing the time in their own half. He also made that great cross that Sturridge should have converted and made it 4-2.

"Stewart, Stewaaart Downinggg !!! He scores when he wants !!! "

:bow:

by ExtremistEnigma Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:37 pm

I brought up stats because some people are statw****s and the only way to shut them up is shove stats on their face.

by stevieg8 Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:59 pm

Extremist, the point wasn't that ynwa had the last word, it's that we like to be respectful to each other around here even when we disagree. Which you've now failed to do in both of your posts since arq called you out on it.

Act under the assumption that everyone here is both passionate and intelligent and post accordingly and you'll get by just fine, regardless of your opinions.

by Arquitecto Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:21 pm

ExtremistEnigma wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:Please don't facepalm a fellow Liverpool supporter who also happens to be considerably respected here. Doesn't happen in this section.

Sigh. He's an experienced member who is respected here so whatever he says is the last word? Cool.

Downing is an old-school winger but passing is one of his strongest attributes. He's given a job of passing the ball around (since we don't cross the ball) and he's doing a decent job at that. AND THAT'S WHY HE IS GETTING GAMES! Let's face it, I wasn't keen on keeping him back in the summer but I can't take senseless hatred towards a player. Credit must be given where its due. He worked hard against Tottenham. I can't accept things being said like "He did f*ck all lol" to a player who's working his ass off to stay at the club. I wouldn't mind such things being said towards the likes of Carroll, Pacheco etc. but not Downing considering his form since the turn of the year and his sheer determination. I wouldn't mind if he's sold but spouting stuff like "He did f*ck all lol" is pure blasphemy.

He gets game because he tracks back excellently to help a defensively frail Glen Johnson. His attacking uses? His crosses and providing a semblance of width on the right side which is effectively absent on the left given who slots there usually is an inside forward.

YNWA may be exaggerating but his point is to emphasise the very minimal influence and presence Downing has within games. On that, he is 100% correct. We praise Downing because he is performing above the standard that we have come to expect from him, which was low to begin with.

Sigh. He's an experienced member who is respected here so whatever he says is the last word? Cool.

Read again. I said facepalming a fellow Liverpool member is not the way to go, not disagreeing with his opinion. I disagree with him on a regular basis.

I brought up stats because some people are statw****s and the only way to shut them up is shove stats on their face.

Since when was YNWA a statwhore?

by ExtremistEnigma Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:28 am

Where did I say ynwa was a statw***e? Comprehension issues much?

by Red Alert Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:46 am

This whole things getting out of hand.

My hate for Downing is already clear. I praised him for his goal but he didn't do anything beside that goal - and that goal WAS gifted to him. He took the opportunity, and scored. Kudos to him. I praised him for scoring. He didn't do much beside that though, so he definitely wasn't MOTM. Our best player was Suarez. And then maybe Coutinho.

Passing stats don't mean much. I can't think of any chance he created yesterday. (Please don't mention that floating cross which Sturridge got at the end of. That's hardly a chance created... Sturridge had to basically kill himself to get his head on the ball...)

@ Arq: I disaagree with the "defensive frail Glen Johnson" part of your post. Glen Johnson's been our best defender this season. He's made individual mistakes against both Zenit away and Arsenal home, but there's not too many games this season where he's been beaten. He's definitely been our most consistent in the back 5. (Including the keepers position, here.)

Now I just feel he's being played with fatigue. We could potentially see him on the bench in one of the next few games as he has played A LOT of games this season and have some easier games coming up. Wisdom is solid enough to cover. Kelly should be back in around month too. GJ has also had a lot of burden on his shoulders too. He's had to carry the right hand side all by himself, and cover for Enrique when needed. He's definitely been our most underrated player for this whole season.

And like you said, Downing right now is definitely in the squad to help cover Johnson. And that's the only reason he's playing right now. I don't feel I should be happy Stewie can do that role fine as the normal nature of that position is to be a danger to the opposition. Stewie doesn't do that.

by Red Alert Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:05 am

ExtremistEnigma wrote:Downing is an old-school winger but passing is one of his strongest attributes. He's given a job of passing the ball around (since we don't cross the ball) and he's doing a decent job at that. AND THAT'S WHY HE IS GETTING GAMES!

That's definitely not true. The only people in the squad that need to pass the ball efficiently is our midfield and defence. Our front three should be doing whatever they possibly can to get the ball in the back of the net. They don't need to recycle the ball around the pitch.

Let's face it, I wasn't keen on keeping him back in the summer but I can't take senseless hatred towards a player. Credit must be given where its due. He worked hard against Tottenham. I can't accept things being said like "He did f*ck all lol" to a player who's working his ass off to stay at the club.

What exactly has he done to work his ass off to stay at the club? He was told he was useless and not needed and hasn't done anything to unjustify that. The team itself doesn't suit him and he's put no real effort in to make himself adapt to the players around him. Look at the way the likes of Sturridge, Coutinho and Suarez interchange and pass the ball, making space for themselves etc and then look where Downing's standing. His 40 yards behind 'em.

I wouldn't mind such things being said towards the likes of Carroll, Pacheco etc. but not Downing considering his form since the turn of the year and his sheer determination. I wouldn't mind if he's sold but spouting stuff like "He did f*ck all lol" is pure blasphemy.

Carroll actually put more effort in at the end of the last season than Downing ever has for us... Pacheco I agree with. Downing's form since the turn of the year is overrated. I may underrate him a lot but you definitely overrate him. He should be nowhere near our starting XI next season.

by mr-r34 Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:11 pm

I think the downing hate is too much OTT. Yes he hasn't met any expectations since joining Liverpool, and if he left no one would be heart broken, but give him some credit, the blokes put in some effort, tried to adapt to a system that his probably never played in. I'd prefer downing them Carroll in all honesty.

by Helmer Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:32 pm

About Downing, he is surely not as exciting to watch as coutinho or suarez, probably he also doesnt have those natural south american insticts to exchange the passes. But i think he is surely not useless or something. He has his own attributes and BR is using them in best way. He is a palyer who still try to creates something with his simple attributes,

1. i still remember his through pass to gerrard (i guess it was against fulham at home)

2. that run behind the defence when gerrard had put that amazing long ball to suarez to score, that run helped suarez to score (i m not able to remember which game, may be norwich at home)

3. Even yesterday's goal against spurs, sepi already explained it was not so easy.

I was in support of downing even before the winter window and considering about summer window, every player has his own value as BR said, so i am sure BR will deal with it appropriately. According to me, his qualities can still be used even in next season, if we dont get a good value for him in the next window.

by Nishankly Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:21 pm

Agree here, Downing played really well yesterday. Not good enough but doesn't deserve so much hate.

by McAgger Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:35 pm

Well ynwa is the only person that we all know doesn't fancy Downing at all. So it's only one persons opinion and we should respect it. I don't think he deserves the hate he gets either as he's been a revelation this second half of the season.

Looking at Downings first 1.5 years at the club we can all agree he hasn't done jack squat to prove himself a worthy pool player however the past 3 months have been a different story. If we judge him by the past 3 months he's been very good, so have most of the team, hence the good results. I think most of us here have accepted that Downing's contribution have been of note lately while ynwa is still holding a grudge against the first 1.5 years which is very understandable in my eyes.

by Red Alert Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:35 am

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:Well ynwa is the only person that we all know doesn't fancy Downing at all. So it's only one persons opinion and we should respect it. I don't think he deserves the hate he gets either as he's been a revelation this second half of the season.

Looking at Downings first 1.5 years at the club we can all agree he hasn't done jack squat to prove himself a worthy pool player however the past 3 months have been a different story. If we judge him by the past 3 months he's been very good, so have most of the team, hence the good results. I think most of us here have accepted that Downing's contribution have been of note lately while ynwa is still holding a grudge against the first 1.5 years which is very understandable in my eyes.

That's where people are getting it wrong. The team has looked good, yes. We're still awkward at the back, and Skrtel should come back soon. But that's not really the point. We're creating more chances and scoring more as a team. That doesn't mean everybody's performances have been better. Downing is still the same player as he was really but we're getting more results out of games so he's being deemed good enough.

I ain't holding a grudge from his first 1.5 years at the club. I'm having a grudge at his time at Liverpool in general. He's only started to do better than he was (which still isn't good enough) because he was told he was redundant and would be sold. He has the worst attitude, and a mid-table mentality. I still remember he was blaming the team last season rather than himself. Players like that should be nowhere near this club. And I'm certain Suso and Sterling would of continued to keep him on the bench if they had a year extra PL experience in them.

by stevieg8 Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:21 pm

I'm somewhere in between the two opinions... Downing hasn't been up to Liverpool quality at any point in his almost two years with the team, including the last three months, and to justify his contributions up to this point would require a scintillating level of form - I'd want to see him regularly creating goals for himself and others. Simply tracking back well and occasionally getting on the end of someone else's good move is not enough, not after the run of invisibility he's had. I will not trust him, especially not in big games, for some time; you don't magically wish away a year and a half of failure.

That being said, I don't think he's been useless or hasn't been trying in the last few months. Words like "revelation" are too strong, but similarly, "useless" is too strong as well. In my eyes, he has shown himself to be Kuyt-lite for the last few months - hardworking, always tracking back, always running, available for the outlet pass to keep the attack in possession, and occasionally popping up for the rare tap-in. That job definitely has a place in our squad, but it's certainly not a 20 mil pound spot, and at the wages I would assume a 20 mil player would command, I'm not certain Downing is worth it. As it stands, I'm fine to play him until the end of the season if he continues at this level, and I'd even be OK with holding onto him for next year for depth/a place on the bench, IF his wages are lower than I think they are.

That being said, if Downing is still starting for our team at the start of next season, I will be very disappointed. If one of our attacking positions is a spot we're willing to compromise on, we should sell Downing for the 10-15m he'll command, and pick up someone to fill the same spot for a cheaper price, or just have Suso/Sterling take over. Preferably, though, we'd have a Coutinho type that can combine well with Suarez/Sturridge on that side as well, and be able to dictate attacks from both wings as opposed to just one, or play the 4-3-3 we've been talking about all year and simply start a Lucas-Gerrard-Hendo midfield behind Suarez-Sturridge-Coutinho. In either case, Downing on the bench or sold is fine by me. Talking about his "resurgence" seems a little too optimistic, though.

by Art Morte Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:26 pm

stevieg8 wrote:
In my eyes, he has shown himself to be Kuyt-lite for the last few months - hardworking, always tracking back, always running, available for the outlet pass to keep the attack in possession, and occasionally popping up for the rare tap-in.

That Kuyt comparison is actually a good one, Dirk used to play that role but better. I've been content with Downing this season, though, yet hopefully the likes of Suso, Sterling and Assaidi will step up to a new level next season.

by iftikhar Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:17 pm

What should (would) be our formation and starting XI next season! Will it be:

---------------Reina--------------
Johnson-Skrtel-Agger-Enrique
--------Gerrard----Lucas--------
---------------CAM*--------------
Suarez-----------------Coutinho
-------------Sturridge------------

or will it be :

---------------Reina--------------
Johnson-Skrtel-Agger-Enrique
--------Gerrard----Lucas--------
LW*--------------------Coutinho
--------------Suarez--------------
-------------Sturridge------------

Either way, I don't see much hope for Downing. If we opt for 433 then his role is redundent more over he isn't an impact player (Kuyt, Maxi, Bellamy) and Rahim, Suso, Assaidi (!) or a new player would (should) be trusted for tactical changes. If we opt for 4411, then we must get a better player.

He is our new Babel and sooner we cut the loses, the better.

by RedOranje Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 pm

Not having the Babel/Downing comparison. They and their LFC careers are about as different as can be bar the fact that they did/have not justified their price tags.

by Red Alert Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:50 am

I agree with Red. He's nothing like Babel as a player.

I'm not having the Kuyt/Downing comparison either. They're nothing alike. One would do absolutely anything for the club, and would actually have an attacking presence, while the other is trying to perform to look for another club. The only thing Downing has on Kuyt is the fact that he likes to defend. But even then, Kuyt was better at that too.

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