The Roma Problem - Is it Mentality, Management, or Tactics?

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Post by McLewis Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:04 pm

I could pen a book on what I think is the cause for Roma's malaise over these past 10 years or so, but to be concise, I think this could be a fascinating conversation about a club that really should be better than it is now. So that really begs a question: Why isn't it?

We all know that Roma has a massive mental/psychological issue. When they have their tails up, they really do enjoy their football and can be nigh unplayable at times, but as we saw against Juventus, when they're getting the floor wiped for them, you get the distinct feeling that the bodies are there, but the players are not. How can that be remedied?

Some say it's a coaching or tactical problem, but is it really?. We've seen all kinds of tactics tried, with wildly vary results ranging from Spalletti's highly entertaining attack-minded as well as revolutionary 4-2-3-1 system to Ranieri's traditional old-school Italian steel and grit defensive system to Luis Enrique's possession-minded Spanish passing game to the highly popular Zemanlandia style all attack football of Zdenek Zeman that we now have seen properly only once this season. That's a huge spectrum of tactics to put a club through in just 7 years. What's the common denominator here? Some fantastic performances, but nothing else to show for it really other than a Coppa Italia and a SuperCup. Should there have been more here?

There's also been a lot to say about the management of the club at the higher levels. The Sensi era under Franco differed heavily from the era when his daughter took the reigns of the club. It suffices to say that at some point, money stopped coming in and that directly correlates to the departure of that golden team from 2001. So as a result, the club scraped the bottom of the transfer market barrel for years, punching above its weight in the league as well as Europe to stay relevant, but to the studious eye, the papering over the cracks was becoming more and more noticeable. With a completely new leadership structure in place, this is likely to change for the better eventually, but in the present, Roma have become characterized as horribly inconsistent, mentally fragile, but capable of utter brilliance. We're essentially the footballing version of a savant.

The question that I'm posing here is simply....how can they get more of the brilliance and less of the inconsistency? Where does that start? Where does that end?

You'll find that the answers are not easy to come by and that's why this is such a great topic for this section.

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Post by Red Alert Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:35 pm

I'm only in quickly, and I'll try to come back soon to finish what I'm about to say, but I feel the club needs stability.

They're very similiar to the Liverpool situation at the moment. Their owners are still relatively new to the game, and they've just hired a new manager again. They've had 4 managers in the last 5 years, no? And they're going to have to hire a new manager soon due to Zeman's age.

It takes time to adapt to managers methods, it doesn't come overnight. The players need time to adapt. And then they need to get their heads right. They're not 100% there mentally when they see a new manager in the door year after year - believe me, I know. I went from seeing us going from number 1 Europe to becoming an average mid-table club who can't beat another side after conceding the first goal. We're coming up again though but this isn't about us. So again, needing a clean slate of mentality and that comes to my next point in setting goal.

To achieve anything in life, you need a goal or a vision and then show ambition to reach that. I personally believe Roma should start looking for a new manager now. Preferably an upcoming manager to lead them for a while - atleast half a decade. I felt it was unjust to get rid of Enrique as he was trying to introduce his philosophy but wasn't given enough time, but to be honest, I havn't seen a lot of Roma recently due to school so I'm best not to judge on that.

Anyway... I'm getting yelled at by my parents, so I'm going to have to cut this short. lol

I'll do dot points!! Okay:

>Look for an upcoming manager with the right attitude (to get CL; push for the league etc and back that up with his own philosophy. (Someone like Klopp etc.)
>Back that manager 100%.
>Buy young players that have a future. I actually liked how Roma was signing the likes of Bojan, Pjanic, Lamela and Angel is it? (The Spanish LB) They'll do wonders being tutored with the experienced players in DDR and Totti etc. You may even play some of your youth from your academy. People who fight for the shirt 100% are normalley the best players.
>Stop with the unrealistic expectations and have patience.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:41 pm

I am not an avid Roma watcher, I openly admit that and therefore my opinion should be considered weaker because of it.

But this is what I think from the outside.

Tactics are not important in this case.You can win with different tactics and Roma have tried many of them. To me the problem has been that while they have had some great and very good players, they just hasnt been enough.

When I think of the great Roma side of my time, I think of Cafu, Aldair, prime Samuel, Cassano, a prime Totti, a prime Emerson, Montella and Batistuta....that right there is some heavy duty artilary. All of them, models of consistency (young Cassano aside) and battle tested with great qualites.

None of the Roma sides since have had this kind of quality at the same time and to me, the fact that Totti might still be their best player this many years later tells a story of not only his greatness but the struggle of finding a team with enough quality.

Dont get me wrong, I dont think lightly of Di Rossi, Juan and some very good players who have come, gone or are still around but its just not enough.

What can be done to change this? Its incredibly difficult, great players are out there but finding, aquiring them and then fitting them all together is a incredibly difficult task.

I notice that Roma now have alot of young players, many of who I have not seen much of outside the odd highlight here or there. I think Roma have always produced young players and that alone should help.

I think its going to take more scouting (which seems to be happening going by the summer just gone) and hard work.

For teams like this, who are just below the very top and thus can attract very good players but not great ones I always refer to the Porto model. There are talents everywhere, some very young but there are also guys who are mid 20's with amazing talents that just need the stage to realise them. Porto signed Lisandro Lopez at 23 years old, Lucho at 24, Falcao at 24 and have looked like they have signed someone of the same sort in Jackson Martinez at 25. These are not super young guys, they were always talented but required the stage to really explode and Porto provided it.

Roma couldnt possibly have the sustained success of Porto as Serie A is a whole lot more difficult than Liga Sagres, but they have a plan of action and despite selling off all their assests they they always have a ready made replacement lurking somewhere.
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Post by McLewis Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:22 am

ynwa wrote:I'm only in quickly, and I'll try to come back soon to finish what I'm about to say, but I feel the club needs stability.

They're very similiar to the Liverpool situation at the moment. Their owners are still relatively new to the game, and they've just hired a new manager again. They've had 4 managers in the last 5 years, no? And they're going to have to hire a new manager soon due to Zeman's age.

It takes time to adapt to managers methods, it doesn't come overnight. The players need time to adapt. And then they need to get their heads right. They're not 100% there mentally when they see a new manager in the door year after year - believe me, I know. I went from seeing us going from number 1 Europe to becoming an average mid-table club who can't beat another side after conceding the first goal. We're coming up again though but this isn't about us. So again, needing a clean slate of mentality and that comes to my next point in setting goal.

To achieve anything in life, you need a goal or a vision and then show ambition to reach that. I personally believe Roma should start looking for a new manager now. Preferably an upcoming manager to lead them for a while - atleast half a decade. I felt it was unjust to get rid of Enrique as he was trying to introduce his philosophy but wasn't given enough time, but to be honest, I havn't seen a lot of Roma recently due to school so I'm best not to judge on that.

Anyway... I'm getting yelled at by my parents, so I'm going to have to cut this short. lol

I'll do dot points!! Okay:

>Look for an upcoming manager with the right attitude (to get CL; push for the league etc and back that up with his own philosophy. (Someone like Klopp etc.)
>Back that manager 100%.
>Buy young players that have a future. I actually liked how Roma was signing the likes of Bojan, Pjanic, Lamela and Angel is it? (The Spanish LB) They'll do wonders being tutored with the experienced players in DDR and Totti etc. You may even play some of your youth from your academy. People who fight for the shirt 100% are normalley the best players.
>Stop with the unrealistic expectations and have patience.

Great points, ynwa.

Here's the thing though. Rome is not a patient city and this goes doubly for the fans of both Lazio and Roma. I think that's been the major reason why Luis Enrique left. The pressure from the fans and the media was at a feverpitch. It was literally an untenable situation even for an ironman like Enrique. That he, who has run marathons and done triathalons, quit a football management job over fatigue from such incessant pressure, speaks volumes. I don't think his football was the problem at all and I still remain a supporter of it. It's just that Rome is not the right place for it as he was never going to get enough to time implement it successfully without all of the failures that come with it. The scudetto win of 2001 raised the expectations of the fans to ridiculous heights to the point where they're literally ruined by it like a kid ruining their teeth form too much candy. And the irony is that we haven't even had that much candy Laughing

The Franchise wrote:I am not an avid Roma watcher, I openly admit that and therefore my opinion should be considered weaker because of it.

But this is what I think from the outside.

Tactics are not important in this case.You can win with different tactics and Roma have tried many of them. To me the problem has been that while they have had some great and very good players, they just hasnt been enough.

When I think of the great Roma side of my time, I think of Cafu, Aldair, prime Samuel, Cassano, a prime Totti, a prime Emerson, Montella and Batistuta....that right there is some heavy duty artilary. All of them, models of consistency (young Cassano aside) and battle tested with great qualites.

None of the Roma sides since have had this kind of quality at the same time and to me, the fact that Totti might still be their best player this many years later tells a story of not only his greatness but the struggle of finding a team with enough quality.

Dont get me wrong, I dont think lightly of Di Rossi, Juan and some very good players who have come, gone or are still around but its just not enough.

What can be done to change this? Its incredibly difficult, great players are out there but finding, aquiring them and then fitting them all together is a incredibly difficult task.

I notice that Roma now have alot of young players, many of who I have not seen much of outside the odd highlight here or there. I think Roma have always produced young players and that alone should help.

I think its going to take more scouting (which seems to be happening going by the summer just gone) and hard work.

For teams like this, who are just below the very top and thus can attract very good players but not great ones I always refer to the Porto model. There are talents everywhere, some very young but there are also guys who are mid 20's with amazing talents that just need the stage to realise them. Porto signed Lisandro Lopez at 23 years old, Lucho at 24, Falcao at 24 and have looked like they have signed someone of the same sort in Jackson Martinez at 25. These are not super young guys, they were always talented but required the stage to really explode and Porto provided it.

Roma couldnt possibly have the sustained success of Porto as Serie A is a whole lot more difficult than Liga Sagres, but they have a plan of action and despite selling off all their assests they they always have a ready made replacement lurking somewhere.


Astute as always from you Dani.

You've actually touched on a plan that our American owners have already put into the place and that is to bring in a flood of young talent to build as our new core with veterans like Totti, De Rossi, and Balzaretti there to guide them. Mark Pannes, our CEO, actually said this when asked about buying world-class player -

“The goal is to acquire the most talented players you can,” Pannes said. “We hear often from the fan base, when will AS Roma sign big players? We say ‘We are, they’re just younger.’'

I think that says all that really needs to be said about what Roma is trying to accomplish. This is true especially of players like Destro, Lamela, Bradley and Pjanic. The talent is undoubtedly there in these players and with years playing together under their belt along with slightly lesser players in Nico Lopez, Alessandro Florenzi, Marquinhos, Tachtsidis and Piris, who all have great potential in their own right, the hope is that we may be looking at the next great generation of Roma players who have the quality to challenge and win a scudetto. To this point, I don't think the coach is an integral part of this project as we all know Zeman will not see this through to the end. I would've certainly have liked to see Luis Enrique go the distance or even Vincenzo Montella, but overall, the project is keeping this group of players together to form a core that the team can rally around, rely on and look to for inspiration just as our 2001 side looked to guys like Totti, Montella, Batistuta, Aldair, and Cafu. I think that's the real project here with the tactics only to be added in to complete it.

So as I said before, Dani: Quite astute of you to point that out. We may very well end up becoming a bigger version of Udinese, who are an absolute factory for churning out talent, especially South American talent.

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Post by billy_gr Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:17 am

the club needs spaleti :coffee:
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Post by fatman123 Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:49 am

I havent watched football for very long, and i dont watch a great deal of Roma either, and i know this may sound stupid, but i think one of the real issues at Roma is consistancy.

Just like McLewis said in the OP, over the last ten years Roma have gone through nearly as many coaches as Palermo, and with that constantly changind tactics and philiosiphies and accompony that with all these new managers bringing in "their players" without fully clearing out the "previous managers players" all of a sudden you've got some players who suit Ranieris style of play, some who suit Enriques style of play and some who suit Zemans style of play, and amongst all this inconsistancy and lack of continuity it is difficult to successfuly establish a new style of play

Chelsea provides a perfect example of this, when Mou came in, Mou bought "his guys" to the club, and he won just about everything. Then he left an in came Grant who played similar to Mou with Mou's players and he did well. then Big Phil came in and god knows what he was trying to do, but he didnt have enough time to bring in "his guys" and clear out "mous guys" and as a reusult his tactics flopped.

Then came intrem manager Guus who bought back all of Mous guys (notably Drogba) play Mou football and was successful, after him came Ancelotti who did that same thing and succeeded too. Next came AVB who really only bought in one of "his guys" (Mata) and tried to play a completly style of football with Mous guys and it went terrible. Finally in comes RDM who brings back all of Mous players plays hoofball and won the CL, but most notably in the summer he cleared out a huge chunk of the players who remined from Mou, bought in a whole bunch of "his guys" and by doing that hes implemented a completly new style of play and so far its gone well

anyway back onto Roma Razz
what they need to do is pick a tactic/system they want (with the players theyve got youd think itd have to be possession play) and stick with that, if they want to fire Zeman then dont bring in Mourhinio or Ranieri, bring in another coach who wants to play possession football and its the same story is they want to clear out the roster. Roma need to set their mind on a system and stick with their coach and tough it out or its just gonna be more of the same

unless of course they can get an Arab owner too Razz
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Post by The Franchise Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:22 am

Thats a great quote Lewis, I think that is exactly the sort of direction. With that of course you need actions, those you mentioned need time but also the right coaching. Having coaches (doesnt have to be head coach) who knows how to teach players is vital too of course.

Udinese facinate me, truely....they seem to have a strong gasp of South America, maybe even more so than Porto and despite selling guys off continue to replace them with great quality.
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Post by McLewis Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:41 am

fatman123 wrote:I havent watched football for very long, and i dont watch a great deal of Roma either, and i know this may sound stupid, but i think one of the real issues at Roma is consistancy.

Just like McLewis said in the OP, over the last ten years Roma have gone through nearly as many coaches as Palermo, and with that constantly changind tactics and philiosiphies and accompony that with all these new managers bringing in "their players" without fully clearing out the "previous managers players" all of a sudden you've got some players who suit Ranieris style of play, some who suit Enriques style of play and some who suit Zemans style of play, and amongst all this inconsistancy and lack of continuity it is difficult to successfuly establish a new style of play

Chelsea provides a perfect example of this, when Mou came in, Mou bought "his guys" to the club, and he won just about everything. Then he left an in came Grant who played similar to Mou with Mou's players and he did well. then Big Phil came in and god knows what he was trying to do, but he didnt have enough time to bring in "his guys" and clear out "mous guys" and as a reusult his tactics flopped.

Then came intrem manager Guus who bought back all of Mous guys (notably Drogba) play Mou football and was successful, after him came Ancelotti who did that same thing and succeeded too. Next came AVB who really only bought in one of "his guys" (Mata) and tried to play a completly style of football with Mous guys and it went terrible. Finally in comes RDM who brings back all of Mous players plays hoofball and won the CL, but most notably in the summer he cleared out a huge chunk of the players who remined from Mou, bought in a whole bunch of "his guys" and by doing that hes implemented a completly new style of play and so far its gone well

anyway back onto Roma Razz
what they need to do is pick a tactic/system they want (with the players theyve got youd think itd have to be possession play) and stick with that, if they want to fire Zeman then dont bring in Mourhinio or Ranieri, bring in another coach who wants to play possession football and its the same story is they want to clear out the roster. Roma need to set their mind on a system and stick with their coach and tough it out or its just gonna be more of the same

unless of course they can get an Arab owner too Razz

Pointing out our lack of consistency is not at all stupid, man. It's a solid point and one of our primary problems with on-field consistency. Everytime I play with Roma on FIFA, I listen to Martin Tyler's mini-analysis of why this club isn't as successful as the big 3 and he summed it up as merely down to always chopping and changing of the management in the background which leads to a lack of foundation and stability which in turn leads to inconsistency. Couple this with the near maddening expectations of the media and the fans and this creates a very toxic situation.

As you also pointed out, Roma need to find a philosophy of tactics and footballing style and culture and stick to it, through hell and high water. I'm an incredibly patient guy and maybe it's because I'm still young, but I'm quite confident we'll win another scudetto in my life time. We've never gone more than 20 years or so without winning one so this gives me quite a bit of confidence as well as the patience and foresight to see the bigger picture. The downside to supporting this club however is that a large majority of the fans just don't have that type of patience. The Roman media plays an even larger part in this by constantly creating this pressure cooker of an atmosphere surrounding the head coaches of the club.

They either can't or won't wait for Roma to pick a tactic to stick with as well as develop a new generation of players and I believe that's at the heart of our malaise. The only way this can be corrected is if the board and the new American leadership have the balls and the backbone to stand up to both the media and the fans and hold fast to what they're doing here. When we start changing directors and coaches as well as players, this upsets the already fragile chemistry the team is developing. It really is a case of the club being it's own worst enemy.

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Post by McLewis Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:45 am

The Franchise wrote:Thats a great quote Lewis, I think that is exactly the sort of direction. With that of course you need actions, those you mentioned need time but also the right coaching. Having coaches (doesnt have to be head coach) who knows how to teach players is vital too of course.

Udinese facinate me, truely....they seem to have a strong gasp of South America, maybe even more so than Porto and despite selling guys off continue to replace them with great quality.

Absolutely. As I said with fatman, when we're constantly chopping and changing our management and coaching staff, who all have different ways, philosophies and ideas which differ from that of their predecessors, it's the equivalent to hitting the reboot button on your computer continuously because you think it'll make it run faster. Instead, when it's given time and the resources it needs, it will generally put out a much better performance. I liken this almost exactly what it will take for Roma to become better than it is. We're getting the parts, some may work and others may not, but we're not being given enough time.

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Post by Red Alert Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:38 am

McLewis wrote:[Great points, ynwa.

Here's the thing though. Rome is not a patient city and this goes doubly for the fans of both Lazio and Roma. I think that's been the major reason why Luis Enrique left. The pressure from the fans and the media was at a feverpitch. It was literally an untenable situation even for an ironman like Enrique. That he, who has run marathons and done triathalons, quit a football management job over fatigue from such incessant pressure, speaks volumes. I don't think his football was the problem at all and I still remain a supporter of it. It's just that Rome is not the right place for it as he was never going to get enough to time implement it successfully without all of the failures that come with it. The scudetto win of 2001 raised the expectations of the fans to ridiculous heights to the point where they're literally ruined by it like a kid ruining their teeth form too much candy. And the irony is that we haven't even had that much candy Laughing

The irony is that "Rome wasn't build in a day." lol

Club management need to think about this then. Should they go for a manager that is currently unemployed (not sure how highly you rate him, but Rafa is out of work atm) and demand instant success for the fans OR go for a younger manager to build for a new project [what they originially planned with the appointment of Enrique]. You can't please everyone, but they need to think it through.

The fans expectations could demoralise the playing group. With the younger players coming in and not having that much experience and demanded to bring success isn't a healthy way to develop a player imo. Unless their mentality strong like Totti and DDR and develop into a better player.

Also, 2 posts up, you won the Scudetto 10 years ago, not 20. (In response to fatman)

That's also an interesting point that should be looked into.

@Franchise: I could be wrong, but Italians cannot sign 2 foreign players in a transfer window or season. There's also problems with work permits. Unless the South American player has dual citizenship this could be an issue. The Portoguese aren't really as strict as the likes of England and Italy when it comes to signing from S.A.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:39 am

Indeed, but it doesnt have to be South America. I was just using Porto as an example.

Then again, Udinese seem to have loaded themselves with South American's somehow.

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Post by ErPupone Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:42 pm

This is the most painful topic I've come across on this forum.

If we knew the answer to this question, we could fix the problem, whether it's a short-term or long-term solution.

Tactics? I've been a Roma fan long enough to say that this one isn't it. Taking into consideration the post-Capello scudetto era, we've gone through many coaches and many different tactics. From Del Neri and Ranieri's more defensive approaches (though Del Neri didn't have a very good team at his disposal) to Luis Enrique's possession football, to Spalletti and Montella's attacking 4-2-3-1 and back to Zeman's kamikaze mission. We've tried everything and it has always led to heart-break, one way or another. The closest we've been to success is Ranieri's 4-3-1-2, with only a comeback performance from Sampdoria separating us from the scudetto. But the following season, with a supposedly improved squad, we weren't able to repeat the performance, giving the idea of the problem being a mental one.

We've always been fragile mentally. Most signs point to this being the problem. But what is it that makes us this vulnerable mentally? It's a combination of things in my opinion. Firstly, the environment; in Rome, you can go from being a hero to being a disgrace in less than a week, just ask Vucinic. This makes it incredibly difficult, especially for younger players, to perform on a consistent basis. Mistakes, especially now, after a year of experimenting, will not be forgiven, which will make it difficult for players like Lamela, Piris, Tachtsidis, etc who have already made some mistakes of note so far this season.

Secondly, we don't have a winning mentality, this is either a result or a reason for my prior point. We always tend to come out second best, always missing that one thing that could put us on top. Whether it's keeping a cool head when it matters or that extra million euros to buy that player that's just better enough to guarantee success.

Then there's management. But here's the strange part: Baldini and Sabatini have done nothing but give their full confidence to the two coaches they've appointed so far, Enrique and Zeman. This, in contrast to, say, Palermo, should be enough to offer some kind of stability to the Roman environment, but it hasn't been that way. The fact that we have American owners shouldn't be a reason for instability, as we have Baldini running the show on the peninsula, a man with loads of experience (I just finished writing a paper about this, in theory this sort of managerial structure has been properly thought out and should be effective).

So what's the problem? It's a number of things really. Sometimes it's the players, sometimes it's the coach or the media or management or finances. All this to say that Roma is one of the most heart-breaking clubs around which is one of the reasons for our appeal some of the most emotional football fans in the world. It's just one of those clubs that keeps your heart in your throat more often than not, but when victory does come along once in a while, it makes it that much more special.
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Post by McLewis Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:36 pm

ynwa wrote:
McLewis wrote:[Great points, ynwa.

Here's the thing though. Rome is not a patient city and this goes doubly for the fans of both Lazio and Roma. I think that's been the major reason why Luis Enrique left. The pressure from the fans and the media was at a feverpitch. It was literally an untenable situation even for an ironman like Enrique. That he, who has run marathons and done triathalons, quit a football management job over fatigue from such incessant pressure, speaks volumes. I don't think his football was the problem at all and I still remain a supporter of it. It's just that Rome is not the right place for it as he was never going to get enough to time implement it successfully without all of the failures that come with it. The scudetto win of 2001 raised the expectations of the fans to ridiculous heights to the point where they're literally ruined by it like a kid ruining their teeth form too much candy. And the irony is that we haven't even had that much candy Laughing

The irony is that "Rome wasn't build in a day." lol

Club management need to think about this then. Should they go for a manager that is currently unemployed (not sure how highly you rate him, but Rafa is out of work atm) and demand instant success for the fans OR go for a younger manager to build for a new project [what they originially planned with the appointment of Enrique]. You can't please everyone, but they need to think it through.

The fans expectations could demoralise the playing group. With the younger players coming in and not having that much experience and demanded to bring success isn't a healthy way to develop a player imo. Unless their mentality strong like Totti and DDR and develop into a better player.

Also, 2 posts up, you won the Scudetto 10 years ago, not 20. (In response to fatman)

That's also an interesting point that should be looked into.

@Franchise: I could be wrong, but Italians cannot sign 2 foreign players in a transfer window or season. There's also problems with work permits. Unless the South American player has dual citizenship this could be an issue. The Portoguese aren't really as strict as the likes of England and Italy when it comes to signing from S.A.

Painfully ironic honestly lol.

I rate Rafa highly actually. He's a great coach who just never seemed to get the right support from the teams he works for. I don't think he'd fine that support at Roma, if I'm absolutely honest. We saw what happened when things didn't go well at Inter. It would be that on steroids with Roma and for a top coach like Rafa, I don't want that for him.

I think the board actually has made up its mind and I've actually heard them say that famous quote before. We have to remember that Roma did not sack Luis Enrique. He quit. The board was behind him 100% all last season and were prepared to weather the fan and media storm with him, but he was not. So I don't have too many worries about them rushing to judgement on Zeman. If he leaves, it is likely to be his choice to leave, but if the board does force him out...it'll be ala Daglish so that we can sign a younger coach for the long haul.

The simplest way I can say is that the board has to ignore the fans, pundits and media personalities constantly calling for blood every time we get our asses kicked or go through poor form. That's why we had 5 coaches in one year and another 3 before Di Benedetto took over. It's a simple case of the Sensis rolling over for hardcore fans and the media. It was ridiculous and I'm glad this group isn't going that direction.

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Post by ErPupone Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:09 pm

McLewis wrote:
ynwa wrote:
McLewis wrote:[Great points, ynwa.

Here's the thing though. Rome is not a patient city and this goes doubly for the fans of both Lazio and Roma. I think that's been the major reason why Luis Enrique left. The pressure from the fans and the media was at a feverpitch. It was literally an untenable situation even for an ironman like Enrique. That he, who has run marathons and done triathalons, quit a football management job over fatigue from such incessant pressure, speaks volumes. I don't think his football was the problem at all and I still remain a supporter of it. It's just that Rome is not the right place for it as he was never going to get enough to time implement it successfully without all of the failures that come with it. The scudetto win of 2001 raised the expectations of the fans to ridiculous heights to the point where they're literally ruined by it like a kid ruining their teeth form too much candy. And the irony is that we haven't even had that much candy Laughing

The irony is that "Rome wasn't build in a day." lol

Club management need to think about this then. Should they go for a manager that is currently unemployed (not sure how highly you rate him, but Rafa is out of work atm) and demand instant success for the fans OR go for a younger manager to build for a new project [what they originially planned with the appointment of Enrique]. You can't please everyone, but they need to think it through.

The fans expectations could demoralise the playing group. With the younger players coming in and not having that much experience and demanded to bring success isn't a healthy way to develop a player imo. Unless their mentality strong like Totti and DDR and develop into a better player.

Also, 2 posts up, you won the Scudetto 10 years ago, not 20. (In response to fatman)

That's also an interesting point that should be looked into.

@Franchise: I could be wrong, but Italians cannot sign 2 foreign players in a transfer window or season. There's also problems with work permits. Unless the South American player has dual citizenship this could be an issue. The Portoguese aren't really as strict as the likes of England and Italy when it comes to signing from S.A.

Painfully ironic honestly lol.

I rate Rafa highly actually. He's a great coach who just never seemed to get the right support from the teams he works for. I don't think he'd fine that support at Roma, if I'm absolutely honest. We saw what happened when things didn't go well at Inter. It would be that on steroids with Roma and for a top coach like Rafa, I don't want that for him.

I think the board actually has made up its mind and I've actually heard them say that famous quote before. We have to remember that Roma did not sack Luis Enrique. He quit. The board was behind him 100% all last season and were prepared to weather the fan and media storm with him, but he was not. So I don't have too many worries about them rushing to judgement on Zeman. If he leaves, it is likely to be his choice to leave, but if the board does force him out...it'll be ala Daglish so that we can sign a younger coach for the long haul.

The simplest way I can say is that the board has to ignore the fans, pundits and media personalities constantly calling for blood every time we get our asses kicked or go through poor form. That's why we had 5 coaches in one year and another 3 before Di Benedetto took over. It's a simple case of the Sensis rolling over for hardcore fans and the media. It was ridiculous and I'm glad this group isn't going that direction.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Spalletti and Ranieri resigned and it took the latter two attempts to have his resignation accepted. As for the season of 5 coaches, Prandelli had to leave because of personal problems, while Conti and Sella were both temporary caretakers.
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Post by Red Alert Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:08 am

Firstly let me just start as I enjoy this section. Much better than the general area where it's all about Madrid/Barca and/or Ronaldo/Messi taking up majority of the section. No one really takes it as seriously as people do here and many great posts get overseen by a troll comment.

@ErPupone: Thanks for the insight. I've always liked Roma as a club - growing up and watching Batistuta brings up great memories for when I was a kid. I use to post in the Roma section in the last forum but I've had a lack of knowledge in recent years as I havn't seen too much of them. I wouldn't really have much to say, unfortunately. Reading your post sounds like they're in a some what situation that has occured with Liverpool in the recent past.

The Franchise wrote:Indeed, but it doesnt have to be South America. I was just using Porto as an example.

Then again, Udinese seem to have loaded themselves with South American's somehow.

Ah, okay. And definitely. Udinese personally skipped off my mind. They've done some great buys from South America recently. They should look into their methods as should other clubs.

McLewis wrote:
Painfully ironic honestly lol.

I rate Rafa highly actually. He's a great coach who just never seemed to get the right support from the teams he works for. I don't think he'd fine that support at Roma, if I'm absolutely honest. We saw what happened when things didn't go well at Inter. It would be that on steroids with Roma and for a top coach like Rafa, I don't want that for him.

I think the board actually has made up its mind and I've actually heard them say that famous quote before. We have to remember that Roma did not sack Luis Enrique. He quit. The board was behind him 100% all last season and were prepared to weather the fan and media storm with him, but he was not. So I don't have too many worries about them rushing to judgement on Zeman. If he leaves, it is likely to be his choice to leave, but if the board does force him out...it'll be ala Daglish so that we can sign a younger coach for the long haul.

The simplest way I can say is that the board has to ignore the fans, pundits and media personalities constantly calling for blood every time we get our asses kicked or go through poor form. That's why we had 5 coaches in one year and another 3 before Di Benedetto took over. It's a simple case of the Sensis rolling over for hardcore fans and the media. It was ridiculous and I'm glad this group isn't going that direction.

Reading your last paragraph just screams out to me that Roma sacks stability. They really need to address the issue.

Rafa is a great tactician and manager. You’re right though. He’s definitely never got the support from management up top with Valencia’s debt, G+H (smh) and not too sure what happened at Inter but I’m certain he wasn’t supported there either. He asked for players and they ended up sacking him, no? And then signed 5 different players for the next manager. Lol. He’s always worked with a tight budget and never really let the media pressure him, though. The only problem he has as a coach is that he doesn’t have that coaching-player bond some other managers do. He predominately only cares about football and doesn’t really care about the personnel of a player. That sounds a bit too harsh though. I still remember when Torres had played the game after he had his first kid. Rafa congratulated Torres for scoring instead of congratulating him for his kid. Haha. But yeah. I can see why you wouldn’t want him. It’s not healthy when a club is divided between club and fans and this is why your owners need to think about it carefully. Everyone needs to be involved and on the same page.

I was ignorant with Enrique leaving as I thought he was sacked, apologies. Disappointed that he let the media get over him but the media is so influential to the game today it’s unreal. That’s fair enough and I can see the understanding of signing a younger coach. Its disappointing getting rid of a legend at the club though, it really is. It truly was heartbreaking seeing Dalglish’s face after the sacking as he didn’t deserve it to be honest.
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Post by Red Alert Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:15 am

Not sure if it's the right place to pop it in, but...


The Sweeper can reveal that Rodgers was also on the shortlist of Roma as they began the process of finding a successor to Luis Enrique at the end of last season.

That job eventually went to Zdenek Zeman but it demonstrates Rodgers’ appeal to Boston-based owners. Liverpool are owned by Fenway Sports Group, who have several shareholders at the helm of Roma, including former president Thomas DiBenedetto.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/596/exclusive/2012/10/06/3428960/the-sweeper-roma-wanted-rodgers-before-liverpool-appointment

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Post by McLewis Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:39 pm

ErPupone wrote:
That's why we had 5 coaches in one year and another 3 before Di Benedetto took over. It's a simple case of the Sensis rolling over for hardcore fans and the media. It was ridiculous and I'm glad this group isn't going that direction.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that's entirely fair. Spalletti and Ranieri resigned and it took the latter two attempts to have his resignation accepted. As for the season of 5 coaches, Prandelli had to leave because of personal problems, while Conti and Sella were both temporary caretakers.

But what precipitated their wanting to leave? That's what I'm getting at here. We were going through poor spells of form when they both wanted out and the only entities I can point the finger at is the media and fan pressure. The board tried hard to keep Spalletti, but they did nothing to keep Ranieri when they should've stood by him. I'm trying to analyze why these guys were forced to come to the conclusion that they no longer wanted to be Roma coach simply because the team had a dip in form. This is at the heart of our lack of stability, consistency and continuity. I will concede my point on Prandelli, Conti, Del Neri and Sella though.

McLewis wrote:
Painfully ironic honestly lol.

I rate Rafa highly actually. He's a great coach who just never seemed to get the right support from the teams he works for. I don't think he'd fine that support at Roma, if I'm absolutely honest. We saw what happened when things didn't go well at Inter. It would be that on steroids with Roma and for a top coach like Rafa, I don't want that for him.

I think the board actually has made up its mind and I've actually heard them say that famous quote before. We have to remember that Roma did not sack Luis Enrique. He quit. The board was behind him 100% all last season and were prepared to weather the fan and media storm with him, but he was not. So I don't have too many worries about them rushing to judgement on Zeman. If he leaves, it is likely to be his choice to leave, but if the board does force him out...it'll be ala Daglish so that we can sign a younger coach for the long haul.

The simplest way I can say is that the board has to ignore the fans, pundits and media personalities constantly calling for blood every time we get our asses kicked or go through poor form. That's why we had 5 coaches in one year and another 3 before Di Benedetto took over. It's a simple case of the Sensis rolling over for hardcore fans and the media. It was ridiculous and I'm glad this group isn't going that direction.

ynwa wrote:Reading your last paragraph just screams out to me that Roma sacks stability. They really need to address the issue.

Rafa is a great tactician and manager. You’re right though. He’s definitely never got the support from management up top with Valencia’s debt, G+H (smh) and not too sure what happened at Inter but I’m certain he wasn’t supported there either. He asked for players and they ended up sacking him, no? And then signed 5 different players for the next manager. Lol. He’s always worked with a tight budget and never really let the media pressure him, though. The only problem he has as a coach is that he doesn’t have that coaching-player bond some other managers do. He predominately only cares about football and doesn’t really care about the personnel of a player. That sounds a bit too harsh though. I still remember when Torres had played the game after he had his first kid. Rafa congratulated Torres for scoring instead of congratulating him for his kid. Haha. But yeah. I can see why you wouldn’t want him. It’s not healthy when a club is divided between club and fans and this is why your owners need to think about it carefully. Everyone needs to be involved and on the same page.

I was ignorant with Enrique leaving as I thought he was sacked, apologies. Disappointed that he let the media get over him but the media is so influential to the game today it’s unreal. That’s fair enough and I can see the understanding of signing a younger coach. Its disappointing getting rid of a legend at the club though, it really is. It truly was heartbreaking seeing Dalglish’s face after the sacking as he didn’t deserve it to be honest.

Yeah as I said...a lack of stability, consistency,foundation and continuity is right at the heart of our problems. Too many quick fixes have tried to be applied. We need one fix and the discipline to apply it no matter how badly the media or the fans think about it.

ynwa wrote:Not sure if it's the right place to pop it in, but...


The Sweeper can reveal that Rodgers was also on the shortlist of Roma as they began the process of finding a successor to Luis Enrique at the end of last season.

That job eventually went to Zdenek Zeman but it demonstrates Rodgers’ appeal to Boston-based owners. Liverpool are owned by Fenway Sports Group, who have several shareholders at the helm of Roma, including former president Thomas DiBenedetto.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/596/exclusive/2012/10/06/3428960/the-sweeper-roma-wanted-rodgers-before-liverpool-appointment


Think that speaks to just what kind of footballing philosophy Rodgers is about. He certainly chose the right club though. We'll get our Brendan Rodgers eventually.

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Post by sportsczy Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:27 pm

You know... i spent time thinking of one positive about Roma today and i can't think of one. There's no foundation whatsoever.

IMO, management needs to focus on a philosophy and stick with it. What do you want to be? IMO, Roma should focus on buying and developing youth globally, not just Italy. Invest heavily on a world class scouting team and go out there to find all the diamonds you can find. Build a WC training facility and program for kids starting at a very young age... suddenly, you have a foundation.

You'll probably to need 5-8 years to reap the rewards however lol. So in the meantime, get the freakin defense fixed. You can at least give yourself a chance in every game with good tactical defending. The way Roma defend these days, they have no chance against the top teams.

Finally, not sure if this has happened already, but also put together a new stadium plan so that you have a modernization plan in place. It takes 2-3 years to get approval anyhow from the city... so you have that time to decide whether you want to do it or not. Doesn't hurt to invest in getting the approvals and having the option.

If Roma can stay in the top 5-10 for the next 5 years, invest in an academy and be patient with it.... then you're on the right track. Otherwise, it's going to take some kind of miracle to turn things around.

My assumption in all this is that the new management are not interested in investing heavily on transfers.
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Post by ErPupone Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:44 pm

sportsczy wrote:You know... i spent time thinking of one positive about Roma today and i can't think of one. There's no foundation whatsoever.

IMO, management needs to focus on a philosophy and stick with it. What do you want to be? IMO, Roma should focus on buying and developing youth globally, not just Italy. Invest heavily on a world class scouting team and go out there to find all the diamonds you can find. Build a WC training facility and program for kids starting at a very young age... suddenly, you have a foundation.

You'll probably to need 5-8 years to reap the rewards however lol. So in the meantime, get the freakin defense fixed. You can at least give yourself a chance in every game with good tactical defending. The way Roma defend these days, they have no chance against the top teams.

Finally, not sure if this has happened already, but also put together a new stadium plan so that you have a modernization plan in place. It takes 2-3 years to get approval anyhow from the city... so you have that time to decide whether you want to do it or not. Doesn't hurt to invest in getting the approvals and having the option.

If Roma can stay in the top 5-10 for the next 5 years, invest in an academy and be patient with it.... then you're on the right track. Otherwise, it's going to take some kind of miracle to turn things around.

My assumption in all this is that the new management are not interested in investing heavily on transfers.

The new philosophy is in place, that to build around young players and create a long-term winning project. The plan is a good one, but the problem is that in Rome, as we mentioned, patience is not easy to come across. Other than that, the plan is going well.

You mentioned scouting outside of Italy. That's exactly what we've done. Walter Sabatini is a great talent scout and has picked up many great players over the years, mainly from South America. With Roma, he personally went out to get Lamela, Lopez, Castan, etc. These are only the players who are in the first team; he's also gotten kids like Nego, Lucca, Tallo who are all quite promising and currently with our youth team. Speaking of our youth team, we have one of the best in Italy without a doubt, constantly sending players through the ranks. But of course these guys need time and experience, so we're forced to loan them out and hope they come back ready, because in Rome they'll get eaten alive. Only one out of a handful of players makes it with us every now and then because it's extremely difficult to do so (the latest example being Florenzi).

As for the stadium plans, that's already going forward. That idea was in place even before the new management came along, now they're in the planning process and approval on a new site should be obtained by November.

ynwa wrote:
@ErPupone: Thanks for the insight. I've always liked Roma as a club - growing up and watching Batistuta brings up great memories for when I was a kid. I use to post in the Roma section in the last forum but I've had a lack of knowledge in recent years as I havn't seen too much of them. I wouldn't really have much to say, unfortunately. Reading your post sounds like they're in a some what situation that has occured with Liverpool in the recent past.

You're always welcome to drop by Thumbs up
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Post by Lupi Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:00 am

I think this is a massive contributing factor. We had an incredible squad early 2000's, we sold - but added quite adequately over this time until about 06/07 or somewhere around there. We had players who were fantastic and in their primes. Since the scudetto we may have lost samuel and aldair, but we added Mexes and Chivu, Emerson and C.Zanetti left but we had De Rossi emerging and signed adequate replacements such as Dacourt, or an emerging Aquilani, Perrotta and Taddei in their prime, Mancini, Cassano. So we maintained a great level within the squad at a decent age range until mid 2000's. Thereafter it was a combination of some very poor recruitment (wasting big money on talents and decent talent that just never clicked - e.g. Pelizzoli instead of Buffon, Ferrari who was meant to be the next big italian defender, our constant struggle to replace Montella/delvecchio/Batistuta which never quite happened, mido, tavano, nonda or just filling the squad with cheap, mediocre players), as well as the simultaneous aging of many of our key players.
This left our latter Rosella squads with players in decline and sub-standard backups. It meant that the new owners needed to replenish the entire squad - the same thing that people on this board were begging Rosella to do for many seasons. To do this we needed to buy young prospects, because if we're honest with ourselves we weren't an attractive prospect for good players in their prime years, nor did we have the excessive amounts of cash to overpay to attract such players. Young talent will always be a gamble.

I think another contributing factor was the quality of competition in Serie A over those years. During the string of seasons where we were constantly second to Inter, it was almost half-half in terms of years where we actually put up a challenge, and years where Inter just looked a different class to us. I think that in those years our league position and results flattered us due to a lack of competition from other clubs. When teams such as Udinese, Fio, Palermo and Napoli brought in some intelligent purchases they started putting us under more pressure and our table position may have suffered as a result. Even now, Lazio, Juve have regained their strength, Palermo's seemed to have lost theirs, Udinese constantly sells off their stars, and Fio dropped down just to bounce back up in recent years. We didn't improve our own squad strength over the 2000-2010 decade, and as such we're now challenging for european places.
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Post by McLewis Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:52 pm

Epoto wrote:I think this is a massive contributing factor. We had an incredible squad early 2000's, we sold - but added quite adequately over this time until about 06/07 or somewhere around there. We had players who were fantastic and in their primes. Since the scudetto we may have lost samuel and aldair, but we added Mexes and Chivu, Emerson and C.Zanetti left but we had De Rossi emerging and signed adequate replacements such as Dacourt, or an emerging Aquilani, Perrotta and Taddei in their prime, Mancini, Cassano. So we maintained a great level within the squad at a decent age range until mid 2000's. Thereafter it was a combination of some very poor recruitment (wasting big money on talents and decent talent that just never clicked - e.g. Pelizzoli instead of Buffon, Ferrari who was meant to be the next big italian defender, our constant struggle to replace Montella/delvecchio/Batistuta which never quite happened, mido, tavano, nonda or just filling the squad with cheap, mediocre players), as well as the simultaneous aging of many of our key players.
This left our latter Rosella squads with players in decline and sub-standard backups. It meant that the new owners needed to replenish the entire squad - the same thing that people on this board were begging Rosella to do for many seasons. To do this we needed to buy young prospects, because if we're honest with ourselves we weren't an attractive prospect for good players in their prime years, nor did we have the excessive amounts of cash to overpay to attract such players. Young talent will always be a gamble.

I think another contributing factor was the quality of competition in Serie A over those years. During the string of seasons where we were constantly second to Inter, it was almost half-half in terms of years where we actually put up a challenge, and years where Inter just looked a different class to us. I think that in those years our league position and results flattered us due to a lack of competition from other clubs. When teams such as Udinese, Fio, Palermo and Napoli brought in some intelligent purchases they started putting us under more pressure and our table position may have suffered as a result. Even now, Lazio, Juve have regained their strength, Palermo's seemed to have lost theirs, Udinese constantly sells off their stars, and Fio dropped down just to bounce back up in recent years. We didn't improve our own squad strength over the 2000-2010 decade, and as such we're now challenging for european places.

Great post. I can't really disagree with anything in it.

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Post by The Franchise Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:11 pm

Mido Laughing

Funny thing was though he was talented, dont know why he sucked so bad.
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Post by RealGunner Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:31 pm

The Franchise wrote:Mido Laughing

Funny thing was though he was talented, dont know why he sucked so bad.

Rich ass family, didn't need to play for the money so just play if he wants to otherwise leave for some other club and travel
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Post by McLewis Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:41 am

Mido was such a scrub.

Could've been the next Ahmed Hassan if he'd been more motivated.

Don't think he was ever going to be as big as he could've been for Roma though.

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Post by la bestia negra Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:16 am

middo had the attitude of a scrub tbh
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