I'm getting tired of hearing people slagging off RVP and saying that he is too old for Manchester United.

Why go for Van Persie for 22 million when you can get the great Heskey for free

haha

cyberman wrote:Adding the best player from germany and the EPL to a squad that reached 3 finals in 4 years isn't a sign of competing with European best?

Am I missing something here? Its not as if the EPL has a recent history of deep runs in the cl FFs...
People need to remember who we are...

Uh first of all they did not add the best player from Germany or the EPL so I don't know where your getting that from. Kagawa and RVP were not the best players in either league last year or any year for that matter. RVP had a great year but just because you have one great year doesn't mean your the best player in the league.

And anyways it supports what I'm saying, he can't keep signing Chicharito, Bebe, Phil Jones, Smalling, Owen, Ashley Young, Valencia, De Gea (Although I think he is world class).

There all good players but not close to world class. They do what SAF asks them to do in his system very well but at the end of the day they just aren't keeping up with the players City, Madrid, Barca, Bayern etc have been signing and producing over the past few years.

That's why you see them getting knocked out of the CL last year in the group stage of one of the easiest groups I've ever seen and lose the league to City.

The signings these teams are making and the lack of world class players they have brought in caught up with them and it's the reason why they can't let Giggs or Scholes go because they need there class in the side because it has not been replaced.

SAF gets the max out of his players but you can't keep expecting him to lose players like Ronaldo, Tevez, Giggs, Scholes, Ferdinand(There not what they used to be), Vidic (Injured), Van Der Sar and even Evra isn't what he used to be etc etc and replace them with players that quite frankly are not the same caliber and keep wining the league and make these massive runs in the CL when there competition in Europe and especially in the EPL (City) are buying who ever they want.

That is why I like the RVP signing because he's bringing real world class quality to his side for 22 mill which is peanuts these days.

Sometimes it seems United fans don't realize what a luxury they have in having the decided tactical advantage almost every game with SAF in charge but every now and then he could use a World class player outside of Rooney and Vidic to dig him out of a hole or win a game just through there brilliance and not the system. Kind of like Yaya and Kun did for City last year to win the league.

I think RvP got a bit of a shock when he wanted to go and of the huge clubs (Barcelona, Madrid, Man Utd, etc), there were only two bids (Man City were just trying to continue to stockpile every player ever).

SchinnerC wrote:

MindGames7 wrote:Best possible team would be:

De Gea
Rafael-Ferdinand-Evans-Evra
Carrick-Anderson
Fletcher-Scholes-Cleverley
Welbeck

Lol @ your best possible team. Playing players out of position will make the team better overall

You are wrong. They are playing in the positions to which they are most suited. Fletcher, Scholes and Cleverley are very attack minded midfielders, particularly Scholes and Cleverley, and would be best used higher up the field. Against opposition of the highest quality, you need as many good "pass and move" players in your team as possible.

On another forum, a few years ago, I suggested this team and was mocked:


But look how that turned out.

^^But lets not forget the massive contrast in technique and ability to your hypothetical United lineup you posted to the present Spain starting eleven.

Surag wrote:^^But lets not forget the massive contrast in technique and ability to your hypothetical United lineup you posted to the present Spain starting eleven.

Of course.

And let's not forget the massive contrast in technique and ability to my hypothetical United lineup compared to the current lineup.

Also, here are some stats that show how big the gaps are that we're talking about:

RB: Rafael (83)
CB: Ferdinand (92)
CB: Vidic (88)
CB: Evans (89)
CM: Carrick (89)
CM: Anderson (82)
RF: Fletcher (85)
CF: Scholes (88)
LF: Cleverley (83)
ST: Welbeck (72)

Best subs: Smalling (81), Evra (80), Jones (80), Valencia (72), Kagawa (71), Giggs (71), Rooney (70)

RB: Ramos (86)
CB: Pique (86)
CB: Puyol (89)
LB: I haven't done alba yet so I'll give you Abidal (91) instead
DM: Xavi (90)
DM: Busquets (89)
RF: Fabregas (84) (arteta 83), (cazorla 75)
CF: Thiago (88) (alonso 85)
LF: Iniesta (85) (callejon 77), (pedro 77)
ST: Messi (79) (villa 73)

The number means the % of times they do the right thing in a game.

MindGames7 wrote:The number means the % of times they do the right thing in a game.

Wha ? What does that even mean ? How did you come with those random numbers to each player ? Kindly explain.

MindGames7 wrote:

Surag wrote:^^But lets not forget the massive contrast in technique and ability to your hypothetical United lineup you posted to the present Spain starting eleven.

Of course.

And let's not forget the massive contrast in technique and ability to my hypothetical United lineup compared to the current lineup.

Also, here are some stats that show how big the gaps are that we're talking about:

RB: Rafael (83)
CB: Ferdinand (92)
CB: Vidic (88)
CB: Evans (89)
CM: Carrick (89)
CM: Anderson (82)
RF: Fletcher (85)
CF: Scholes (88)
LF: Cleverley (83)
ST: Welbeck (72)

Best subs: Smalling (81), Evra (80), Jones (80), Valencia (72), Kagawa (71), Giggs (71), Rooney (70)

RB: Ramos (86)
CB: Pique (86)
CB: Puyol (89)
LB: I haven't done alba yet so I'll give you Abidal (91) instead
DM: Xavi (90)
DM: Busquets (89)
RF: Fabregas (84) (arteta 83), (cazorla 75)
CF: Thiago (88) (alonso 85)
LF: Iniesta (85) (callejon 77), (pedro 77)
ST: Messi (79) (villa 73)

The number means the % of times they do the right thing in a game.

statistics mean *bleep* all in football to be honest. Pique's name being mentioned in anything automatically invalidates your post.

Surag wrote:

MindGames7 wrote:The number means the % of times they do the right thing in a game.

Wha ? What does that even mean ? How did you come with those random numbers to each player ? Kindly explain.

In my sig. It means the number of times they correctly pass, shoot, tackle, intercept etc. out of the total number of things they do, including fouls, offsides, misplaced passes, etc.

You won't find the stats presented like that on the website, I had to do the work myself.

jibers wrote:statistics mean *bleep* all in football to be honest. Pique's name being mentioned in anything automatically invalidates your post.

STATS MEAN EVERYTHING MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

but seriously I'd be happy to go into further detail if you ask for them for an individual player.

MindGames7 wrote:

SchinnerC wrote:

MindGames7 wrote:Best possible team would be:

De Gea
Rafael-Ferdinand-Evans-Evra
Carrick-Anderson
Fletcher-Scholes-Cleverley
Welbeck

Lol @ your best possible team. Playing players out of position will make the team better overall

You are wrong. They are playing in the positions to which they are most suited. Fletcher, Scholes and Cleverley are very attack minded midfielders, particularly Scholes and Cleverley, and would be best used higher up the field. Against opposition of the highest quality, you need as many good "pass and move" players in your team as possible.

On another forum, a few years ago, I suggested this team and was mocked:

Casillas
Ramos-Puyol-Pique-Alba
Xavi-Busquets
Silva-Fabregas-Iniesta
Villa

But look how that turned out.

How did that turn out? Iniesta is more effective in the middle rather than cutting in. Fabregas was better as a lone striker in this setup, rather than being of the midfield, as shown in Euro. Their best performance came when Xavi was played in the AMC role with Cesc as the main forward. It's proven Barca/Spain play best when Xaviesta have the most freedom/accessability to link up. One of the reason why Xavi in AMC worked well in the final. Iniesta was more accessible to him. They become too far apart when Xavi moves towards the right to pick up the ball and Iniesta is on the other end.

I do like the Anderson,Carrick partnership. Anderson adds a lot of energy to our midfield but his passing can be a suspect sometimes. Fletcher/Carrick dont work very well from what I remember. Scholes in 56 and Imo still one of the best Deep Lying Playmaker in the world. He's the one who dictates our tempo, not the one who drifts into hole linking up with our forwards. That's what Kagawa is for I assume, but with this SAF-RVP situtation I don't know who's going to play where anymore. It's ridiculous really.

MindGames7 wrote:

jibers wrote:statistics mean *bleep* all in football to be honest. Pique's name being mentioned in anything automatically invalidates your post.

STATS MEAN EVERYTHING MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

but seriously I'd be happy to go into further detail if you ask for them for an individual player.

Possession stats are usesll, they are measured with pass volumes, so they arent even accurate. key passes is another BS stats. They are passes that result in shots on goal. So evra could have the most key passes if young took a shot on goal eveytime evra passed it to him. EVen if it was from the half way line. Stats have no place in football. This isnt America.

jibers wrote:

MindGames7 wrote:

jibers wrote:statistics mean *bleep* all in football to be honest. Pique's name being mentioned in anything automatically invalidates your post.

STATS MEAN EVERYTHING MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

but seriously I'd be happy to go into further detail if you ask for them for an individual player.

Possession stats are usesll, they are measured with pass volumes, so they arent even accurate. key passes is another BS stats. They are passes that result in shots on goal. So evra could have the most key passes if young took a shot on goal eveytime evra passed it to him. EVen if it was from the half way line. Stats have no place in football. This isnt America.

I don't use possession stats or key pass stats in my calculations. I use the rawest of stats like "how many times a player's cross found a teammate" out of "total attempted crosses."

MindGames7 wrote:

jibers wrote:

MindGames7 wrote:

jibers wrote:statistics mean *bleep* all in football to be honest. Pique's name being mentioned in anything automatically invalidates your post.

STATS MEAN EVERYTHING MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

but seriously I'd be happy to go into further detail if you ask for them for an individual player.

Possession stats are usesll, they are measured with pass volumes, so they arent even accurate. key passes is another BS stats. They are passes that result in shots on goal. So evra could have the most key passes if young took a shot on goal eveytime evra passed it to him. EVen if it was from the half way line. Stats have no place in football. This isnt America.

I don't use possession stats or key pass stats in my calculations. I use the rawest of stats like "how many times a player's cross found a teammate" out of "total attempted crosses."

Again the fact Pique, who was arguably Barcelona downfall (along with Cesc) is in your list invalidates it

jibers wrote:Again the fact Pique, who was arguably Barcelona downfall (along with Cesc) is in your list invalidates it

Dude, Pique has a poor rating for a central defender at a top football club. 14% of his actions being unsuccessul is terrible when you compare it to Mascherano (11%), Puyol (11%), Evans (11%), Vidic (12%) Ferdinand (8%)

So Evans is better than Vidic

BeautifulGame wrote:So Evans is better than Vidic

Evans was easily our best CB last season tbh.

Vidic didn't play many games last season so his rating will be more inaccurate than Rio's and Jonny's.

Ferdinand has always been better than Vidic though.

I can understand why Vidic is more popular - he's so dramatic and powerful and it seems like he's always doing amazing things. However, that's a sign that he's struggling because his reading of the game is not as good as Ferdinand's. Ferdinand makes everything look easy, he goes unnoticed and that's a sign of class for a defender. When Vidic comes up against top quality, pacey strikers, he struggles, but Ferdinand remains as cool as ever. It's all about that extra yard in the head.

MindGames7 wrote:Vidic didn't play many games last season so his rating will be more inaccurate than Rio's and Jonny's.

Ferdinand has always been better than Vidic though.

I can understand why Vidic is more popular - he's so dramatic and powerful and it seems like he's always doing amazing things. However, that's a sign that he's struggling because his reading of the game is not as good as Ferdinand's. Ferdinand makes everything look easy, he goes unnoticed and that's a sign of class for a defender. When Vidic comes up against top quality, pacey strikers, he struggles, but Ferdinand remains as cool as ever. It's all about that extra yard in the head.

yea, he looked so good when City raped us 6-1.

jibers wrote:yea, he looked so good when City raped us 6-1.

Bad in one game, therefore bad in every game. Great logic there.

Evans was worse in that game and Vidic wouldn't have done any better either. City were brilliant and we were far too open and attacking. After the games we'd played previously against a weakened Arsenal, a weakened Tottenham and a weakened Chelsea, we went into the City game a bit arrogant and were far too attack-minded.

For every bad game that Rio has, you could name 5 that any other defender has.

Dnmac4 wrote:

cyberman wrote:Adding the best player from germany and the EPL to a squad that reached 3 finals in 4 years isn't a sign of competing with European best?

Am I missing something here? Its not as if the EPL has a recent history of deep runs in the cl FFs...
People need to remember who we are...

Uh first of all they did not add the best player from Germany or the EPL so I don't know where your getting that from. Kagawa and RVP were not the best players in either league last year or any year for that matter. RVP had a great year but just because you have one great year doesn't mean your the best player in the league.

And anyways it supports what I'm saying, he can't keep signing Chicharito, Bebe, Phil Jones, Smalling, Owen, Ashley Young, Valencia, De Gea (Although I think he is world class).

There all good players but not close to world class. They do what SAF asks them to do in his system very well but at the end of the day they just aren't keeping up with the players City, Madrid, Barca, Bayern etc have been signing and producing over the past few years.

That's why you see them getting knocked out of the CL last year in the group stage of one of the easiest groups I've ever seen and lose the league to City.

The signings these teams are making and the lack of world class players they have brought in caught up with them and it's the reason why they can't let Giggs or Scholes go because they need there class in the side because it has not been replaced.

SAF gets the max out of his players but you can't keep expecting him to lose players like Ronaldo, Tevez, Giggs, Scholes, Ferdinand(There not what they used to be), Vidic (Injured), Van Der Sar and even Evra isn't what he used to be etc etc and replace them with players that quite frankly are not the same caliber and keep wining the league and make these massive runs in the CL when there competition in Europe and especially in the EPL (City) are buying who ever they want.

That is why I like the RVP signing because he's bringing real world class quality to his side for 22 mill which is peanuts these days.

Sometimes it seems United fans don't realize what a luxury they have in having the decided tactical advantage almost every game with SAF in charge but every now and then he could use a World class player outside of Rooney and Vidic to dig him out of a hole or win a game just through there brilliance and not the system. Kind of like Yaya and Kun did for City last year to win the league.

Rvp was the best player in England from start to finish last year, it's a fact that cannot be argued. Kagawa was arguably in Germany, it's ok to argue with it but when you argue that we're snot signing world class players them you're using hindsight which is ridiculous,
If we were around when we signed vidic, would you have said he was a world class player when we signed him from Russia at 24 and our only competition for him was from fiorentina? We signed vds from fulham and tevez from west ham. ..not exactly top of rhe range clubs are they? Or are you looking back with perfect 20 / 20 vision?
Valencia was our best player last year, a player that guard oils called the best winger in Europe, why wouldn't we want another like him?
We lost the league last year in the last min v the most expensive squad in football history, a team that failed to get more points than us. Exactly how big do you think the gap was? Is the memory playing tricks?
You cannot take last years european campaign as the norm when we've had 7 odd years of cl consistent success before that. I mean how short sighted can you be?

Guard oils lol, that's guardiola

GOD PLZ DONT SIGN THAT GLASS CANNON. I BEGGGGGGG UUUUUUUUUUU

Mr. Cyberman, that was a great post but I suggest that you watch some of the reserves in action. Ryan Tunnicliffe is a hero and Tyler Blackett and Jesse Lingard look like they have the potential to be our combination on the left flank for years to come. Petrucci is very classy, and there are many more like this.

Seriously, the quality of some of the passing in that reserve side is amazing, it's actually better than the first team at times.

So I think that might be the reason why Fergie isn't going into the transfer market. Our reserves produce many of the best players at this club (Fletcher, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Neville, Evans, O'Shea, Brown, Cleverley, Welbeck, Butt) and without them it just wouldn't feel like United, they are like the soul of the team.

MindGames7 wrote:Vidic didn't play many games last season so his rating will be more inaccurate than Rio's and Jonny's.

Ferdinand has always been better than Vidic though.

I can understand why Vidic is more popular - he's so dramatic and powerful and it seems like he's always doing amazing things. However, that's a sign that he's struggling because his reading of the game is not as good as Ferdinand's. Ferdinand makes everything look easy, he goes unnoticed and that's a sign of class for a defender. When Vidic comes up against top quality, pacey strikers, he struggles, but Ferdinand remains as cool as ever. It's all about that extra yard in the head.

Blimey, could we have a likeable United fan here for a change?

I find myself agreeing with many of your posts, like this one here.

Although age is catching up with him with all those injuries and he's lost some pace.

Btw, stats are cool, too

Darren Fletcher played a reserve game the other day, maybe SAF is counting on him to come back and save the show?