Re: Manchester United agree fee with Arsenal for Robin van Persie ( confirmed )

by fatman123 Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:54 am

Darren Fletcher played a reserve game the other day, maybe SAF is counting on him to come back and save the show?

by cyberman Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:42 am

Art only likes utd fans that he agrees with

Good to know...

Vidic being destroyed pace is a myth that is jumped on from an off form 2nd half of 09

Which paced strikers have done him? I swear if someone says Torres I'll scream...

by Raptorgunner Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:51 am

Has tomorrow come yet? RVP must be fed up of all these medicals he's (supposedly) having. Mind you, he's used to medical rooms isn't he?

by jibers Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:00 am

Art Morte wrote:
MindGames7 wrote:Vidic didn't play many games last season so his rating will be more inaccurate than Rio's and Jonny's.

Ferdinand has always been better than Vidic though.

I can understand why Vidic is more popular - he's so dramatic and powerful and it seems like he's always doing amazing things. However, that's a sign that he's struggling because his reading of the game is not as good as Ferdinand's. Ferdinand makes everything look easy, he goes unnoticed and that's a sign of class for a defender. When Vidic comes up against top quality, pacey strikers, he struggles, but Ferdinand remains as cool as ever. It's all about that extra yard in the head.

Blimey, could we have a likeable United fan here for a change?

I find myself agreeing with many of your posts, like this one here.

Although age is catching up with him with all those injuries and he's lost some pace.

Btw, stats are cool, too

show me a pool fan that isn't a scumbag

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:02 am

I hate stats im going to mindgames on ignore just for that tbh.

by The Messiah Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:17 am

cyberman wrote:Art only likes utd fans that he agrees with

Good to know...

Vidic being destroyed pace is a myth that is jumped on from an off form 2nd half of 09

Which paced strikers have done him? I swear if someone says Torres I'll scream...

Torres .

by MindGames7 Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:19 am

Art Morte wrote:Blimey, could we have a likeable United fan here for a change?

I find myself agreeing with many of your posts, like this one here.

Although age is catching up with him with all those injuries and he's lost some pace.

Btw, stats are cool, too

Just for that, I might venture into the Liverpool section one day and talk about them. Laughing

I think Joe Allen is very good. According to my stats, his performances weren't far off Xabi Alonso's last season, and playing in an inferior team as well. I think he'll be just what you need.

Rio Ferdinand vs Fernando Torres is exactly like Paul McGrath vs Ian Rush in the 80s. History repeating itself.

by Raptorgunner Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:30 am

cyberman wrote:Art only likes utd fans that he agrees with

Good to know...

Vidic being destroyed pace is a myth that is jumped on from an off form 2nd half of 09

Which paced strikers have done him? I swear if someone says Torres I'll scream...

Manchester United agree fee with Arsenal for Robin van Persie ( confirmed ) - Page 8 I-AM-ME-LOL39

by Dutti Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:57 am

fatman123 wrote:Darren Fletcher played a reserve game the other day, maybe SAF is counting on him to come back and save the show?

Oh please... Darren Fletcher .... three words sum it all: he is shit!

by MindGames7 Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:04 am

It's not just Torres, Vidic frequently makes fouls and gets dribbled past against pacey strikers: Eto'o in the CL final, Gerrard vs Liverpool, should have been off vs Agbonlahor in the CC final, and I'm sure there are many more examples. I can't think of any time that Rio has struggled against this type of player. The only times that Rio ever messes up are when he plays a stupid pass, which is rare.

[/quote]

Dutti wrote:
fatman123 wrote:Darren Fletcher played a reserve game the other day, maybe SAF is counting on him to come back and save the show?

Oh please... Darren Fletcher .... three words sum it all: he is shit!

I'm sorry but you're so wrong it's not even funny. It's actually quite scary that someone can have that opinion after watching him play.

by The Messiah Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:08 am

I think Fletcher is a really good player, I'm sorry about what happened to him and I hope he's able to recover quickly.

on the other hand, Carrick is a shit player. United definitely need a top CM/DM, I can not understand why they are deliberately ignoring this, they never bought any replacement for Hargreaves, nevertheless it's a good thing for Bayern Munich I guess, it simply means we'll dominate their midfield if we eventually meet in Europe.

by MindGames7 Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:11 am

The Messiah wrote:on the other hand, Carrick is a shit player

Oh my God, that's even worse!!!!!!!!

Me going Psycho: affraid

Please tell me you're just trying to wind me up.

by The Messiah Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:12 am

MindGames7 wrote:
The Messiah wrote:on the other hand, Carrick is a shit player

Oh my God, that's even worse!!!!!!!!

Me going Psycho:

Please tell me you're just trying to wind me up.

Carrick is shiit based on my assessment, Fletcher is far more a better player.

by The Messiah Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:15 am

This is not only based on my assessment, the dude has made over 300 EPL appearance but still since 2001, it's been 11years and he has only made 21 national team appearance

by MindGames7 Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:18 am

The Messiah wrote:This is not only based on my assessment, the dude has made over 300 EPL appearance but still since 2001, it's been 11years and he has only made 21 national team appearance

... and look how good Gerrard-Lampard has been for England compared to Carrick-Scholes for United.

Carrick is brilliant defensively, I know you don't like stats but his attacking play is 85% accurate, same as Busquets and his defensive play is 82% compared to Busquets' 79%. Don't tell me you think Busquets is a bad player too?

Also, Fletcher isn't a player you should compare to Carrick. Fletcher might make more hard-man tackles but he's the more attack-minded player of the two.

by The Messiah Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:56 am

MindGames7 wrote:
The Messiah wrote:This is not only based on my assessment, the dude has made over 300 EPL appearance but still since 2001, it's been 11years and he has only made 21 national team appearance

... and look how good Gerrard-Lampard has been for England compared to Carrick-Scholes for United.

Carrick is brilliant defensively, I know you don't like stats but his attacking play is 85% accurate, same as Busquets and his defensive play is 82% compared to Busquets' 79%. Don't tell me you think Busquets is a bad player too?

Also, Fletcher isn't a player you should compare to Carrick. Fletcher might make more hard-man tackles but he's the more attack-minded player of the two.

I rate Fletcher as a far better player as he have a lot more to offer than just sitting back like a traffic cone and protecting the back 4 defensively.

I like to see the best from all top teams, like United, Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan, Dortmund, Juventus etc, I hate it when we have to play teams like Basel in in cpl knock-out stage, as well as teams like Marsielle in Quarter final, I don't find it competitive enough and it not hardcore enough for hard football fans like myself.

If Carrick is still at United next season I hope and pray he's a squad player and nothing more- fail to see how a player like Carrick can be a main part of a team with ambitions to compete with the likes of Bayern, Real Madrid Barca etc.

I can name 2 players in each of those teams that are not even undisputed starters but yet they are better than Carrick, for Madrid Sahin, Diarra and to an extent Kaka over-rall is a better player although they play different position. Barcelona have Fabregas and Mascherano and as for Bayern if Martinez joins as it is expected, they have Gustavo/Martinez/Kroos/Tymo who are easily better than Carrick.

As for starters, Schweinsteiger/Kroos/Martinez/Gustavo>>Carrick. Khedira Alonso>>>Carrick, Xavi, Bosquet, Iniesta>>>Carrick.

I agree he had couple of alright games against weak teams and nothing more, that's not enough for United, very average player, how Fergie can watch him be completely outclassed by Barca 3yrs ago then let it happen all over again 2years ago against Bayern Munich(Olic goals in particular) and again against Barca in the final of cpl 2011 was beyond me.

I really thought CL Final was the wake up call to ditch the deadwood (Carrick) & bring in the quality in midfield thats so obviously needed, someone like Modric, Sneijder, Vidal or Martinez.

Carrick has been the main problem at the heart of an average United central midfield for a few seasons.

I can sometimes see what he brings in defense positioning and covering the back 4 but any top team needs much much more from player in this position- For the last three seasons all too many times against average opposition he can't hold the ball or plays first time chest high pass that get intercepted.

In a 4-4-2 United would be as well playing with 10 men, sometimes with 3 in the middle he gets away with it but even then his contribution is minimal.

Any team that is serious about not just competing with the likes of Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Real Madrid but also outplaying smaller stubborn European teams like Porto, Benfica, Basel, Marseille, Bilbao, Napoli etc as United should be, and as they were when they still had Hargreaves, can't be carrying a Carrick as 1st choice in midfield, squad player nothing more like Tymo is for us, still we still want to get Martinez although we already have Kroos/Schweinsteiger/Gustavo, Madrid still want to get Modric although they already have Khedira/Alonso/Sahin/ and Barcelona are still after Song even though they have Xavi/Iniesta/Bosquet/Fabregas/Mascherano.

Disagree with you on Fletcher as well- I think Defensive midfield is actually his best position; Compared to Carrick he can hold the ball better, stronger in the tackle & pick a pass- I would be happy with him in this position & couple of more technically gifted players ahead of him.

Fletcher-Modric or Sneijder-Fletcher, Vidal-Fletcher or Martinez-Scholes and Carrick as a squad player will be better for United

by Swanhends Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:57 am

No one has taken the bait on mindgames' trolling

GL I am proud

by Dnmac4 Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:03 pm

cyberman wrote:
Dnmac4 wrote:
cyberman wrote:Adding the best player from germany and the EPL to a squad that reached 3 finals in 4 years isn't a sign of competing with European best?

Am I missing something here? Its not as if the EPL has a recent history of deep runs in the cl FFs...
People need to remember who we are...

Uh first of all they did not add the best player from Germany or the EPL so I don't know where your getting that from. Kagawa and RVP were not the best players in either league last year or any year for that matter. RVP had a great year but just because you have one great year doesn't mean your the best player in the league.

And anyways it supports what I'm saying, he can't keep signing Chicharito, Bebe, Phil Jones, Smalling, Owen, Ashley Young, Valencia, De Gea (Although I think he is world class).

There all good players but not close to world class. They do what SAF asks them to do in his system very well but at the end of the day they just aren't keeping up with the players City, Madrid, Barca, Bayern etc have been signing and producing over the past few years.

That's why you see them getting knocked out of the CL last year in the group stage of one of the easiest groups I've ever seen and lose the league to City.

The signings these teams are making and the lack of world class players they have brought in caught up with them and it's the reason why they can't let Giggs or Scholes go because they need there class in the side because it has not been replaced.

SAF gets the max out of his players but you can't keep expecting him to lose players like Ronaldo, Tevez, Giggs, Scholes, Ferdinand(There not what they used to be), Vidic (Injured), Van Der Sar and even Evra isn't what he used to be etc etc and replace them with players that quite frankly are not the same caliber and keep wining the league and make these massive runs in the CL when there competition in Europe and especially in the EPL (City) are buying who ever they want.

That is why I like the RVP signing because he's bringing real world class quality to his side for 22 mill which is peanuts these days.

Sometimes it seems United fans don't realize what a luxury they have in having the decided tactical advantage almost every game with SAF in charge but every now and then he could use a World class player outside of Rooney and Vidic to dig him out of a hole or win a game just through there brilliance and not the system. Kind of like Yaya and Kun did for City last year to win the league.
Rvp was the best player in England from start to finish last year, it's a fact that cannot be argued. Kagawa was arguably in Germany, it's ok to argue with it but when you argue that we're snot signing world class players them you're using hindsight which is ridiculous,
If we were around when we signed vidic, would you have said he was a world class player when we signed him from Russia at 24 and our only competition for him was from fiorentina? We signed vds from fulham and tevez from west ham. ..not exactly top of rhe range clubs are they? Or are you looking back with perfect 20 / 20 vision?
Valencia was our best player last year, a player that guard oils called the best winger in Europe, why wouldn't we want another like him?
We lost the league last year in the last min v the most expensive squad in football history, a team that failed to get more points than us. Exactly how big do you think the gap was? Is the memory playing tricks?
You cannot take last years european campaign as the norm when we've had 7 odd years of cl consistent success before that. I mean how short sighted can you be?

LOL Short sighted? Last years team most accurately reflects this years team not the teams that made the finals of the CL 2 and 3 seasons ago as Giggs and Scholes have gotten older and there production has gone down and you have not replaced the world class players you lost that were on your team over those runs (Ronaldo and Tevez plus Berba just doesn't play for what ever reason not saying he's world class)

At one point Ferdinand, Scholes, Giggs, were all world class and Evra was pretty close but as of right now which we are talking about as the past means shit they are not anywhere near what they used to be plus they have not been replaced by world class players.

Yes Vidic was a great buy but give me a break on the Tevez from West Ham thing. IF you were a premface living in a cave then I could see how you might not have known how good Tevez was but anyone who watched any sort of football outside of the EPL knew it was just a matter of time until Tevez was on a major team. He was a beast in South America.

And last year is what you judged since it is obvious that Ashley Young, Phil Jones, Smalling, Bebe, Chicharito, Owen, Valencia (Who replaced Ronaldo FFS) etc etc are not world class and they never will be. So if you want to sit around and pretend that they are going to turn into Vidic and Tevez be my guest but it makes you look even more delusional.

I mean wake the F*** up. You can't replace Ronaldo and Tevez with Chicharito and Owen. After a while it catches up with you and last year is when the shit finally hit the fan for United. If you need a reminder watch either the game vs City or Bilbao and you can see that bringing in world class players was needed as they were totally out of there depth in both games.

Also, Kagawa cannot be argued as a world class player or the best player in Germany last year. Sorry, I don't care how in the bag you are for United but that statement makes you lose all credibility.

And BTW, I applauded the move for RVP so I don't know why your acting like with him coming in I'm saying your not signing world class players. I said over the past couple years you have not been which is fully accurate and that has down graded your team.

And if you want to pretend that last year was a fluke, go right ahead and that since the margin was close with City that your just as good as they are then fine think what you like. It's wrong but go ahead and think it.

SAF has a knack of getting maximum points out of EPL games and City was still learning how to win and gel as a team. So if you think that you have improved and City wont get better then be my guest but you're in for a big surprise.

And that is the reason I said RVP was a great signing because it is obvious to any reasonable football fan that there team last year was no longer able to win the league at a canter and be automatically in the final 4 of the CL.

Even when they reached the finals of the CL there was a massive gap between them and Barca and now with Madrid and Bayern getting better I Think there is a reasonable gap between them and United too and again that is why I applaud the RVP signing.

by Le Samourai Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:14 pm

I'm not going to claim that I'm an expert on the German league by any means but in the short selection of Dortmund games I've watched for the last 2 years (10 or so) Kagawa cumulatively has been their best player.

Against Schalke , Bayern ,Wolfsburg, Mochengladbach,Koln,Sevilla and Mainz which just happens to be the only teams I watched him play against, he was either Man of the Match or not far behind.

Is it that absurd a statement to think he was arguably the best player in Germany over that 2 year period?

by MindGames7 Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:17 pm

Mr. Messiah, I think the difference between us is that you rate players almost entirely based upon what they're cabable of offensively, am I right?

I rate players based upon their offensive and defensive capabilities as well and how much you can rely on them to do their job. Michael Carrick a terrific passer, very clever at making interceptions, he's athletic, two-footed and very reliable. If Carrick hadn't been sitting there like a traffic cone for the past 6 years, we might have played more entertaining football but we wouldn't have won anything.

by The Messiah Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:54 pm

MindGames7 wrote:Mr. Messiah, I think the difference between us is that you rate players almost entirely based upon what they're cabable of offensively, am I right?

I rate players based upon their offensive and defensive capabilities as well and how much you can rely on them to do their job. Michael Carrick a terrific passer, very clever at making interceptions, he's athletic, two-footed and very reliable. If Carrick hadn't been sitting there like a traffic cone for the past 6 years, we might have played more entertaining football but we wouldn't have won anything.

You won many things because you had no real competitor in EPL and also' only by the grace of Sir Alex Ferguson, who is everything for Manchester United, as long as Ferguson is United manager you can still win things even if you have lets say 1 or 2 prostitute in your team or lets say a Real traffic cone, but that was 1-2years ago though, now with City around and top European teams Bayern Munich, Real Madrid and Juventus getting to their best, I dont expect much from you guys with Carrick around

Also I rate players defensively and offensively, Gustavo is an extremely defensive and destructive player and yet I rate him as one of the best DM in the world and that is not even a biased opinion, it's an objective one.

by Dutti Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:55 pm

It's true that Carrick is a great passer but his speed and ability to mark people in midfield are just dreadful. I think he is more comfortable to play in a position where all 11 opponents are in front of him, which is of course the CB position.

I won't change my opinion on Fletcher unless his consistency improves. He's still shit.

by Dnmac4 Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:57 pm

Le Samourai wrote:I'm not going to claim that I'm an expert on the German league by any means but in the short selection of Dortmund games I've watched for the last 2 years (10 or so) Kagawa cumulatively has been their best player.

Against Schalke , Bayern ,Wolfsburg, Mochengladbach,Koln,Sevilla and Mainz which just happens to be the only teams I watched him play against, he was either Man of the Match or not far behind.

Is it that absurd a statement to think he was arguably the best player in Germany over that 2 year period?

Yes, Ribery has been better, Gomez has scored millions of goals, Lahm is world class and a better player, even on his own team, Sahin was thought to be the better player before he left.

IMO and I don't know how you can say he was the best player 2 years ago when he only played in 18 league games plus the whole team flopped terribly in the CL.

Not to mention Lewandowski is worth almost twice as much and many would tell you Gotze is the better player and I believe the market would bare that out as well. I mean he wasn't even the best player on his team let alone the whole German League and I'm not even bringing up players like Robben or Huntelaar.

I mean if you watched the BPL did you see how different a team BAyern was with out Piggy when he was hurt? He's a better player the Kagawa and on the market would probably be worth 3-4 times as much.

There are better players then Kagawa in the German League. I think sometimes people need to step back and reevaluate how they determine who is better then who. To say Kagawa is better then Piggy I think any coach would laugh you out of his office.

by urbaNRoots Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:02 pm

Kagawa was selected best player in the Bundesliga 2011/12 season.
Sahin was selected best player in the Bundesliga 2010/11 season.

Both were merit.

by The Messiah Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Dnmac4 wrote:
Le Samourai wrote:I'm not going to claim that I'm an expert on the German league by any means but in the short selection of Dortmund games I've watched for the last 2 years (10 or so) Kagawa cumulatively has been their best player.

Against Schalke , Bayern ,Wolfsburg, Mochengladbach,Koln,Sevilla and Mainz which just happens to be the only teams I watched him play against, he was either Man of the Match or not far behind.

Is it that absurd a statement to think he was arguably the best player in Germany over that 2 year period?

Yes, Ribery has been better, Gomez has scored millions of goals, Lahm is world class and a better player, even on his own team, Sahin was thought to be the better player before he left.

IMO and I don't know how you can say he was the best player 2 years ago when he only played in 18 league games plus the whole team flopped terribly in the CL.

Not to mention Lewandowski is worth almost twice as much and many would tell you Gotze is the better player and I believe the market would bare that out as well. I mean he wasn't even the best player on his team let alone the whole German League and I'm not even bringing up players like Robben or Huntelaar.

I mean if you watched the BPL did you see how different a team BAyern was with out Piggy when he was hurt? He's a better player the Kagawa and on the market would probably be worth 3-4 times as much.

There are better players then Kagawa in the German League. I think sometimes people need to step back and reevaluate how they determine who is better then who. To say Kagawa is better then Piggy I think any coach would laugh you out of his office.

I don't get Real Madrid fans, first of all when Sahin left for Madrid they said he was Bundesliga best player..? Yes I agree Sahin played amazing football but then again the whole of Dortmund team played some amazing football.

Now Kagawa was injured most part last season and they said he was Bundesliga best player, Ribery was easily better, so also was Kroos.

The problem last season was that Dortmund deliberately got themselves eliminated from Europe and as we can see it was an effective tactics and the other half of the season they only had to concentrate on bundesliga why other strong bundesliga teams, had to deal with CPL as well as Europa cup.

To me last season Lewandowski was easily Dortmund best player, many Germans may want to deliberately Ignore this but the truth about the matter is that he was.

Also Klopp is the reason why Dortmund are that amazing, if we had a manager that can match him with time, we will put them back to were they belong, especially if we have striker that can link up play and also if we sign enough good depth players to cover their tactics of getting kicked out of Europe as early as possible.

Ribery, Huntelaar, Lewandowski were easily Bundesliga best player last season. But they had to give it to Kagawa because Dortmund won the league and also because no one ever rate Lewandowski and of course the voting was fan base and also popularity contest, which I expect a lot for Asian people to participate in.

Just imagine the damage Madrid would have done, if they got kicked out of Europe as far back as November.

by urbaNRoots Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:35 pm

Kagawa missed half of the season in 2011/12? He only missed like 6 days in February ffs and fully deserved the Bundesliga player of the year, Shinji would've won it in 10/11 aswell if injuries didn't hit him. He was Dortmund's best player by far, it's still a question if Reus can repeat what Shinji did in the past two seasons, he was just perfect for the system Dortmund works and saying Lewandowski, Huntelaar, Kroos or Piggy were better is just f*cking ridiculous.

I don't expect dnmac4 to know much about the Bundesliga but explaining this shit to a freakin Bayern fan is just unbelievable.

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