messixaviesta wrote:By loser mentality I meant that they have been on the losing end of too many major finals and semi finals. It's psychological. When you lose that many the chances of your ever winning one decrease. As many have said before including the one and only Der Kaiser the present Bayern and German teams lack leaders. They don't have the players to turn to in times of adversity. If Germany want to win a major tournament they must try to find another Lothar Matthaus.

Since you said Ozil>Iniesta, I won't bother to read the rest of your comments simply because I don't see much of a point of getting into a debate or discussion with someone, with whom I so fundamentally disagree on the basic essence of football. Actually as far as I am concerned Iniesta>=Pirlo.

He also said götze=silva and reus=fabregas

harhar11 wrote:
He also said götze=silva and reus=fabregas

Well we have to accept that freedom of speech allows him to say literally anything he wants.

juventus101 wrote:Why wouldnt friendlies matter? The teams are still coming out to play, its not like it s a charity match or something. They might not give it 110% like they would in a tournament, but theyre still gonna try.

Now i dont understand how you can say Germany have nothing to show for it. Spain bdat Germany 1-0 through a defensive tactics mistake, and Germany have onky gotten better since then, whereas it could be argued that Spain have gotten worse. Xavi, Villa, Puyol, etc are not as good as they were 2 years ago. Spain beat the Netherlands 1-0 in the WC final, and only didnt get beat because Robben choked with his finishing, and then a couple months later Germany recked the Netherlands. Even now during the Euro Germany bdat the Netherlands more comfortably than Spain did in 2010, and Germany was off form in the Euro. I still believe an on form Germany is the best nationak side in the world.

Because friendlies are not the same as competitive football. True both teams come out to play, but the coaches don't necessarily come out to win, but to test ideas and the performances of fringe players or a consolidating formation. Fringe players will be very motivated to prove that they're worth a starting spot, but established ones will be less so. Even if you have a friendly where both teams want to win at all costs (as it recently happened in Argentina vs Brazil, due to the nature of the rivalry), you still can't replicate the pressure of a potential knockout, which usually lead to more balanced approaches in competitive football. So while I think it's certainly a way to measure talent, friendlies should most definitely not be used to predict how a team will perform in competitive football.

By the 'have nothing to show for it' comment I meant no titles or victories, which I thought was pretty obvious.

For an Italy fan, you seem to think very highly of Germans.

messixaviesta wrote:I am very surprised alfred. For me the hype around this Germany team is now dead and buried and I will take them seriously only after the likes of Schweinsteiger and Lahm are no longer around.

In 08 Jogi Low was the head coach. Only in 06 was he Klinsmann's assistant.

The truth though is that I don't think it's totally Low's fault. This generation of Germans have more technical ability than some of the German teams of the past have had but they lack what has been Germany's greatest quality in football history - their mental strength. We have grown up on sayings like 'the Germans never say die' and 'write off the Germans at your own peril'. Would you ever use them for the current team? Goal.com's Clark Whitney was right when he said before the Euro began that the biggest problem facing Germany is the loser mentality of players like Schweinsteiger and Lahm that they have shown many times in the past including this year's UCL final. That was one of the best examples you will ever see of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

JD my mistake, I actually meant 2006 rather than 08. And it is perhaps a minority of users in the forum that continue the German hype machine, but they're very vocal. The hype, as you noted, retracted a little bit after their defeat, most notably in the media.

Doesn't the coach have some responsibility for the confidence and winning mentality his team possesses? Look at how much Atletico have changed under Diego Simeone, it's as if his incredibly confident personality has extended itself to each of his players, and he has a title to show for it. I'm not saying Loew has all the fault, I simply don't know enough about the German environment to assign blame, but I would say he has something to do with the loss of mental strength.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:JD my mistake, I actually meant 2006 rather than 08. And it is perhaps a minority of users in the forum that continue the German hype machine, but they're very vocal. The hype, as you noted, retracted a little bit after their defeat, most notably in the media.

Doesn't the coach have some responsibility for the confidence and winning mentality his team possesses? Look at how much Atletico have changed under Diego Simeone, it's as if his incredibly confident personality has extended itself to each of his players, and he has a title to show for it. I'm not saying Loew has all the fault, I simply don't know enough about the German environment to assign blame, but I would say he has something to do with the loss of mental strength.

alfred, what you say is absolutely right - agree with every word.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:I am very surprised alfred. For me the hype around this Germany team is now dead and buried and I will take them seriously only after the likes of Schweinsteiger and Lahm are no longer around.

In 08 Jogi Low was the head coach. Only in 06 was he Klinsmann's assistant.

The truth though is that I don't think it's totally Low's fault. This generation of Germans have more technical ability than some of the German teams of the past have had but they lack what has been Germany's greatest quality in football history - their mental strength. We have grown up on sayings like 'the Germans never say die' and 'write off the Germans at your own peril'. Would you ever use them for the current team? Goal.com's Clark Whitney was right when he said before the Euro began that the biggest problem facing Germany is the loser mentality of players like Schweinsteiger and Lahm that they have shown many times in the past including this year's UCL final. That was one of the best examples you will ever see of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

JD my mistake, I actually meant 2006 rather than 08. And it is perhaps a minority of users in the forum that continue the German hype machine, but they're very vocal. The hype, as you noted, retracted a little bit after their defeat, most notably in the media.

Doesn't the coach have some responsibility for the confidence and winning mentality his team possesses? Look at how much Atletico have changed under Diego Simeone, it's as if his incredibly confident personality has extended itself to each of his players, and he has a title to show for it. I'm not saying Loew has all the fault, I simply don't know enough about the German environment to assign blame, but I would say he has something to do with the loss of mental strength.

The hype has got a reason. We've got lots of quality in our squad. The current problem is Löw. We have to move forward from his frail defensive mentality.
Based on quality, Germany is only behind Spain. Of course, players like Podolski etc. aren't worth it to be mentioned ( juveblabla delusioned fan) but we have the players.
Current Germany is infinitely more talented than Argentine.

germany is overall more talented but definitely not "infinitely".Masch,Di Maria,Messi,Aguero,Higuain,and maybe a few others would walk into germany's starting 11

Messi would, and one of Higuain or Aguero. But none of the others. I don't even think we're behind Spain on individual quality. We are far inferior in terms of chemistry and game plan, though, and that's what really matters.

Besides me loving Podolski I have to agree with Babun. With 2 of Götze/Reus/Schürrle/Müller on the wings and one of Klose/Reus/Schürrle at CF we'd destory anything. That attacking magic has no equal in international football. Sadly captain pussyfoot, AKA Löw, will take another couple years before he plays them together. Wimp.

Torres off form? No. This is the bezt Torres has been since he left Liverpool. Xavi also had a decent Euro and i wouldnt say he was off form. Puyol is getting old and at this point their better off with Ramos in the center, and Villa was off form before.he got injured anyways so he wouldnt help much. Germany on the other hand had Muller who wasnt starting anymore for Bayern, Schweinsteiger fighting through an injury, Podolski clearly with his mind on Arsenal, and Klose just coming back from a 6 month long injury. Overall the team chemistry just wasnt there for Germany in this Euro.

And the friendlies against Brazil and Netherlands were both hotly contested matches. Not experimental at all too. The only big player missing in either of those matches was Robben. Van Persie too, but Huntelaar started ans has always bedn better for the NT.

And im italian, and my fiancee is German, from Koln. Ive watched many players live, including Henry, Donovan, Beckham, Dempsey, Schurrle, Valencia, Bender, Diego, Reus, etc and lemme tell you, Podolski is by far the best player ive ever seen live. So when you watch players live, you can then tell mr that thdyre not worth mentioning. Otherwise stop talking out of your ass. Podolski is untouchable in the NT, just wait and see when you can actually watch him outside of the Euro cuz i bet kost of.you have not seen more than 1 or 2 Koln games.

But individual quality wise, Germany ha e the strongest squad in the world. Argentina can definitely compete in attack, with Messi, Lavezzi, Aguero, Tevez, Higuain, etc, but everywhere else theyre very weak in comparison.

I'm not sure if talented is the right word. In my opinion Argentina lacks quality defenders and a midfield, and while talent has something to do in midfield, it's not really an important quality for a defender. Not saying that Germany doesn't have a significantly better squad than Argentina, which they do, I'm just not sure if they're that much more talented.

Anyways, this thread is about Germany and Spain, not Argentina whose team is vastly inferior to both.

Also, the problem isn't only Loew. Loew is not the one stepping into the pitch, after all.

The problem is never simply the coach, however the Germans have a very legitimate case for holding this last tournament entirely against him. Despite obviously performing well, the match against Italy saw Loew stab his team in the back. I do not for a minute want to take anything away from the dedicated performance of my own team, however Loew couldn't have instructed his team more incompetently so as to give us a competitive advantage that we simply do not have over this German side.

This is not to say that had Germany played their normal game and attacked with courage and purpose, that they would have necessarily have won, simply because of our ability to beat teams that are better than us, however had the Germans done so, I believe that they would have gained a result. It would have been by no means a guaranteed outcome, however they were rightly backed on the expectation of a full side which made the greatest use of their width, energy in midfield and intelligent movement.

I do absolutely dispute the idea that the Germany who defeated Greece were ripe to take Spain, as the gap was exaggerated by the score line, which even then should have concerned German fans in my opinion.

The Spanish undoubtedly perform when necessary and rightly deserved to be victors, however again, gaps are often exaggerated by fans and I do believe that the Germans are capable of upsetting the Spanish, whose defence is in no way as strong as their record of a single goal being scored against them in the last tournament suggests. Had I to choose a single team capable of beating the Spanish, I'd have elected the Germans, however we dealt with Loew's side for Del Bosque.

This isn't a battle of individuals, of possession or form to be had on paper. The first two elements are irrelevant in many ways to a game that is so dependent upon chemistry and efficiency, whilst form changes in international tournaments like the whim of a small child. This German team was led by a man who didn't have the guts to attack Italy, however we can't apply such an approach to a potential final. The effect that finally defeating Italy would have had on this German team would completely change the complexion of a possible match against Spain.

Who do I believe would have won? It would depend entirely upon the manner in which Germany would have hypothetically surpassed Italy and the way in which Loew would have reacted to this. Could they defeat Spain? I believe there is a strong argument that they are quite capable of beating the Spanish. This in no way suggests that the Germans are a stronger team than the Spanish, for the Spanish are more than capable of tearing the Germans apart in return. The gap that is being spoken of however does not exist between these teams.

The Germans have still only underachieved in one tournament thus far in my opinion, this recent Euro, as far as any 'psychological' effects of 'underachieving' have had on German performances thus far. The approach of the manager should not be mistaken for the courage of the squad. That it can undoubtedly have future ramifications needs to be taken into account, however I object to its retrospective use in determining who might have the advantage in a hypothetical final. I will only make a judgement concerning their mental strength after the World Cup in Brazil.

I can't say who I think would win without being put into the situation of the pre-match, seeing the line-ups and seeing the reaction of the German team to a semi-final victory, as there exist too many variables which would alter my opinion of who I seeing shading a very enjoyable contest. The suggestion that Germany can beat Spain is by no means a preposterous one though.

juventus101 wrote:Loser mentality? What are you talking about? Schweinsteiger is clutch as hell. He completely domjnated the CL final and they ended up losing on penalties, which is all luck. Gimme a *bleep* break with this bullshit, its not like Bayern went down and just cried the game out. They dominated the game and lost on PKs. Also, Hummels inconsistent? You realize before the Italy game, he did not commit a single foul the entire tournament.

Starting XI-wise, theyre about even (from most to least defensive)
Khedira>Busquets, Schweinsteiger>Alonso, Xavi>Kroos, Ozil>Iniesta, Gotze=Silva, Fabregas=Reus. Didnt use Podolski, Klose, Gomez, or Muller cuz theyre so different than the Spanish players its hard to compare. I would take Podolski or any of those 3 actually over any Spanish forward though, except an on form David Villa. But Germany alsi has more depth is all areas.

And i agree about the conservative tactucs by Lowe being what costed Germany in 2010 for sure. Thdy were a strong counterattacking team but Lowes tactics were eay too conservative for them an it costed them. Lowe is a great coach, but hes gotten it wrong a few times and it has costed them.

And why us the off forn argument laughable? Did you know that before the Euro they lost 2 games in a row, to France and Switzerland, which is thd first time they lost 2 games in a row in many many years. Or the fact that they conceded 5 goals to switzerland. The onky game they won convincingly during the Eueo was against Greece, hut that was a mismatch. Before the Euro, in 2011 specifically, the won convincly against a strong Netherlands side and a strong Brazil side. TIn the world cup even they were more of a counterattacking team than now and they destroyed Argentina and England. But now they lose 2 consecutive games to an admittedly good France side but then Switzerland? Gimme a break. Its pretty obvious they were off form. The Bayern contingent also had something to do with that, with them losing the CL final and everything on pebalties.

wtf... Khedria>Busquests, Shewi>Alonso, Reus=Fabregas, Gotze=Silva. Good lord...

If Spain played what they did against Italy then Germany gone...

dost, that writeup of yours has the kind of class and sophistication about it that would have made a quality author like your idol proud. Excellent read - enjoyed every word. I could disagree with one or two points here and there but that's not important. What matters is that it is a wonderful post.

LOL, they did.

Spain won..

Spain's defense is the best because of their possession football and all of their midfielders defend. It is the team effort that makes their defense superior.

Of course, Germany on their day can beat Spain, but 7 times out of 10 Spain play Germany, they will be on the winning side. Spain's attack midfield and defense is way too balanced for Germany to make a dent on them.

Spain, with ease. They have much better players and play better as a team. Spain would outplay Germans like in 08, 10. juventus101 still overhype Germans and Juve players, what a shock

08 was the weakest German team in recent memory. And in 2010 theres alot that youre forgetting. Germanys best player at the WC was suspended for some bullshit, and Spain needed a flying Puyol header from a tactical mistake to narrowly win. Plus Germany were a counterattacking team back then, so they didnt try to outpossess Spain. They both played their game (to an extent for Germany, as Lowe made them very defensuve because he was seemibgly scared of big games), and Spain still narrowly won, and Germany are even stronger now. For the record though, i agree that if they played in this Euro Spain wouldve won, as Germany went through a terrible run of form before and during the Euro.

Oh stop this crap,everytime the team that you support loses you find some lame excuse like "a tactical mistake".

TBH there's nothing lame about it. It was clear as day, you can even follow the train of thought from the pre-match before Italy, where most of us where saying that Italy doesn't have a reasonable answer to Germanys width, and lo and behold, Germany played without true wingers, forced the play through the middle, couldn't find any space, and got killed on the counter.

Classic tactical mistake. That's even a tactical f*ckup, the entire strategy was FUBAR, I'd say it was a downright clusterfuffle.

rwo power wrote:It would have depended on the line-up. With a classic Löw black-out: Spain. With a stroke of Löw genius: Germany.

LOL you talk as if it's in Germany's hands. They are nothing and overrated. It's all about "if Spain turns up".

Gundogan, Gotze, Reus, and Schurrle should be in the first 11 for Germany, if they want the WC2014. Gomez is deadhand, Muller lacks technical ability, and Podolski is...

No, aslong as Löw is the coach no. Man is too stubborn and predictable.

It's not that Germany has no quality, they clearly have in attack and midfield but defense is pretty bad. Badstuber has no place in the first team, and Schmelzer shouldn't even be called-up. Neuer and Hummels are the only reliable first-team players in the defense.

Germany's situation is a bit like Argentine's one, they have so much quality attacking wise, but the coach and defense let them down.

[quote="Kizu"]Gundogan, Gotze, Reus, and Schurrle should be in the first 11 for Germany, if they want the WC2014. Gomez is deadhand, Muller lacks technical ability, and Podolski is...

[/quote

Le Samourai wrote:

Kizu wrote:Gundogan, Gotze, Reus, and Schurrle should be in the first 11 for Germany, if they want the WC2014. Gomez is deadhand, Muller lacks technical ability, and Podolski is...

Neuer
Lahm Hummels Badstuber Schmelzer
Gundogan Khedira
Reus Ozil Gotze
Schurrle

Excuse him, he also included the likes of Schmelzer, Gündogan and put Schürrle as a lone striker.

I think Germany should seriously contemplate calling up Neustadter