Debate: Great teams don't change their styles when the stakes get high

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Do you agree with that statement?

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:48 pm

So let's try to have a debate, or if that's impossible, a friendly conversation. Do you agree with the previous statement?

Do you think the Uruguay of the 30s, the Mighty Magyars, Ajax & Brazil of the 70s, Milan of late 80s, etc would be remembered the way they are if they didn't have a distinctive style that set them apart from the rest and kept true to their style even under dire times when there is a lot at stake? Do you believe personality is an important part of every great team?
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Post by The Madrid One Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:50 pm

united did that and got wiped out.

great teams, and great managers adapt to sitations, to win.

regardless of any of the fairtytale stuff.
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Post by buddytaller Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:54 pm

I believe in adapting to your present circumstance, your style of play is largely influenced by the players that are available to you. The Brazil of today can no longer play the Samba of old because of the players they have. The Dutch have tweeked their total football to suit their current crop of players.

In the end it's all about winning, the greatest teams are those who have won the most not those who have played the best, even though in most cases the two go together.
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Post by The Madrid One Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:57 pm

i do not agree at all. the best team adapt to their situation and do their best to win. they dont keep doing something just because thats their style.

from misconceptions like that comes the term anti-football, the believe of people that u have to play a certain way to play right.

holland doesnt even play anywhere near total football. total football was more evolutionized by cryuff to make it into the tiki taka played by barca.

its nice to have ur style but if you stay with it even though ur gonna get owned, thats not a great team, thats a delusional team.

jose mourinho is a great example, he accustoms himself for what he has and what he wants, plays players in different positions, like Essien at rb when he was in chelsea or eto as a defender, he knows what he has to do to win, and makes sure he does win.

you noticed how many call his style anti-football? how players like cristiano ronaldo were disapointed they didnt go out to play?

you have to go a step further to win against the odds, and mourinho when "allowed" does that the best.

why do you think cryuff hates mourinho?

because mourinho is the exact opposite of what cryuff, and thus barca stand for.

why do you think the barca fans and united fans were all happy, and said football won... cause united layed down.

you have to have balls to be a great team at the right circumstance.

simple as that.


Last edited by The Madrid One on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Albiceleste Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:57 pm

Sticking to your guns, the honorable and respectable way to do it.

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Post by The Madrid One Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:01 am

i predict all barcelona fans will say stick to your guns.

im not poking or throwing jabs at anyone, its just that barcelona fans tend to follow philosphies like that of cryuff and the club they follow. just watch...
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:01 am

buddytaller wrote:In the end it's all about winning, the greatest teams are those who have won the most not those who have played the best, even though in most cases the two go together.

Are they? If you ask a regular fan which are the top 3 World Cup teams they'll probably include the NL of '74, in spite of them not winning. By your logic, every WC winning team should've gone ahead of them.
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Post by The Madrid One Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:03 am

i dont understand taller's logic in that one either.

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Post by The Franchise Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:06 am

Depends who you ask.

For me, the best teams are remembered by winning but also how they win.

Sure, I am a Barca fan so its easy to say that.

However, two of the universally accepted best teams of all time Hungary 54' and Netherlands 74' lost in finals, Brazil in 82' another all time great team didnt win and still people remember this stuff and talk about those teams because they played a certain way all the time and where actually the best sides, despite not winning.

However, I am going off the path slightly. The question is, to truly great teams never change their style?

I dont know about that, you can be truly great and change to the opponent, but it depends what and how you change.

If you are an offensive and positive attacking team, then come up against a team and decide to defend and be negative, its for one reason, they are more skillful, more dangerous with the ball, so your afraid of that and you dont risk that space and do what is relatively easier (compared to trying to outplay this "better" team) and put men behind the ball and dont come out.

Thats how I see it.
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Post by buddytaller Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:09 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
buddytaller wrote:In the end it's all about winning, the greatest teams are those who have won the most not those who have played the best, even though in most cases the two go together.

Are they? If you ask a regular fan which are the top 3 World Cup teams they'll probably include the NL of '74, in spite of them not winning. By your logic, every WC winning team should've gone ahead of them.

The logic is simple the only objective measure of greatness in football is trophies, the Netherlands squad of 74 was largely composed of the Ajax team that had won the European Cup in 71,72 and 73. And they made it as far as the final of the World Cup, any random team that plays beautiful and get knocked out at the first round of a world cup will not be counted as great.

The Madrid of the 50's, the Milan of the 80's the Liverpool of the 70's and the present Barcelona have one thing in common they have won a lot of football honours! It may not be the sole measure of greatness but it is the most accurate.
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Post by The Madrid One Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:11 am

the problem is, how can you be great without going beyond your "limitations" or "beliefs" to in the end become the winner?


its like losing before you step in.

id like to use barcelona as an example, if you try to play "your" game against them, you are prob gonna lose, and this is what many people call honorable or great.. why do you think alfred being a barcelona fan asked this.. because he prob questions this philospohy himself..


as i said before, if you have the balls to change ur ways to become the winner, while sticking with conventional rules. then u win the right to be called a great team.
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Post by Albiceleste Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:14 am

The Madrid One wrote:
as i said before, if you have the balls to change ur ways to become the winner, while sticking with conventional rules. then u win the right to be called a great team.
I think it takes balls to stick to your guns, not to change how you play around your opposition

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Post by The Madrid One Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:15 am

buddytaller wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
buddytaller wrote:In the end it's all about winning, the greatest teams are those who have won the most not those who have played the best, even though in most cases the two go together.

Are they? If you ask a regular fan which are the top 3 World Cup teams they'll probably include the NL of '74, in spite of them not winning. By your logic, every WC winning team should've gone ahead of them.

The logic is simple the only objective measure of greatness in football is trophies, the Netherlands squad of 74 was largely composed of the Ajax team that had won the European Cup in 71,72 and 73. And they made it as far as the final of the World Cup, any random team that plays beautiful and get knocked out at the first round of a world cup will not be counted as great.

The Madrid of the 50's, the Milan of the 80's the Liverpool of the 70's and the present Barcelona have one thing in common they have won a lot of football honours! It may not be the sole measure of greatness but it is the most accurate.

read this all over again. you proved your own point as kind of illogical. just because you fail to win because of small factors, doesnt mean your not good. trophies dont tell the whole story.

poor old chelsea of 2005-2009 won 0 cl trphies

if they had had more luck

aka ovrebo never born and terry never a jackass then they would have won 2 consecutive cls, in 2005 and 2007 it being close as well.

great team, if everything had gone well even better than barcelona some would say, but since they didnt win no one says anything...

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Post by The Madrid One Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:17 am

Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:
as i said before, if you have the balls to change ur ways to become the winner, while sticking with conventional rules. then u win the right to be called a great team.
I think it takes balls to stick to your guns, not to change how you play around your opposition

but that lacks brains and common sense.

but yet again was i right or was i right... *rolls eyes*

takes no balls to stick to ur style, just a bit of loosen screws and dead brain cells.

in the hardest and most difficult of situations i mean...
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Post by Albiceleste Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:19 am

The Madrid One wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:
as i said before, if you have the balls to change ur ways to become the winner, while sticking with conventional rules. then u win the right to be called a great team.
I think it takes balls to stick to your guns, not to change how you play around your opposition

but that lacks brains and common sense.

but yet again was i right or was i right... *rolls eyes*

Depends really, Man U for example, came out and played their game vs Barcelona, they just were not good enough in the end but they tried and they can hold their heads high, the same can be said for the likes of Valencia Villareal and Sevilla this year against Barca

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Post by The Franchise Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:20 am

There is a happy medium between "playing your game" and being totally negative.

Lets be real here, this is basically Barca-Madrid dressed up in another way.

We can try to turn it into something else (I did by mentioning Brazil, Hungary and Netherlands, Alf did via Uruguay, the Mighty Magyars ect) however, the most recent example was right before our eyes and people will use it.

Anyway, point is, you dont have to play the EXACT same way you normally play, not if you know you will lose, but you can still be positive.

I dont know why people are saying what they are about Man Utd. They didnt play their way EXACTLY the same way. The pressed with 4 men and then two very high up the pitch. Watch Man Utd against other teams, they dont do that.

So, Utd didnt play the exact way they played as always, they changed, but they changed in a way which isnt negative and isnt basically admitting they are the lesser true football side.

Madrid did that, the pressed up high and looked to play something like they usual style for one half of the CDR, the rest of the time, they didnt try, they just defended.

Thats the difference.

You dont have to "play the exact same way" and knowingly lose, but you dont have to bend over knowing your inferior and simply defend for your lives like a lower team would.




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Post by The Madrid One Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:21 am

ya but they didnt win did they. see you just proved my point.. great teams go that step further and re-evolutionize them selves to come and fight against the odds.

you play "your" game and what happens.. you go down like "real men" right...

psh as i said ive never seen a barca fan with a different philospohy, again not poking jabs, just that i expected you to stand up for a believe that i find incorrect.
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Post by The Madrid One Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:24 am

The Franchise wrote:There is a happy medium between "playing your game" and being totally negative.

Lets be real here, this is basically Barca-Madrid dressed up in another way.

We can try to turn it into something else (I did by mentioning Brazil, Hungary and Netherlands, Alf did via Uruguay, the Mighty Magyars ect) however, the most recent example was right before our eyes and people will use it.

Anyway, point is, you dont have to play the EXACT same way you normally play, not if you know you will lose, but you can still be positive.

I dont know why people are saying what they are about Man Utd. They didnt play their way EXACTLY the same way. The pressed with 4 men and then two very high up the pitch. Watch Man Utd against other teams, they dont do that.



So, Utd didnt play the exact way they played as always, they changed, but they changed in a way which isnt negative and isnt basically admitting they are the lesser true football side.

Madrid did that, the pressed up high and looked to play something like they usual style for one half of the CDR, the rest of the time, they didnt try, they just defended.

Thats the difference.

You dont have to "play the exact same way" and knowingly lose, but you dont have to bend over knowing your inferior and simply defend for your lives like a lower team would.





see proves my point.

there is no better analyzing tool in this discussion than using barca -madrid.

the main point when i mention the way united play is that, they forbid themselves from playing what barcelona fans, or a lot of other people call anti-football.

or even change their styles drastically plainly said.

theyd rather lose with "honor" than actually win.

theyd rather not go beyond the line, and what they did their isnt a great team at all. i use this cause this is a topic analyzing whether great teams stick with their style or change drastically, do something unconventional.


why do you think mourinho is so successful.

successful at doing anything no matter what to win.


Last edited by The Madrid One on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by The Franchise Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:25 am

The Madrid One wrote:ya but they didnt win did they. see you just proved my point.. great teams go that step further and re-evolutionize them selves to come and fight against the odds.

you play "your" game and what happens.. you go down like "real men" right...

psh as i said ive never seen a barca fan with a different philospohy, again not poking jabs, just that i expected you to stand up for a believe that i find incorrect.

Nope, wrong. They didn't win because they arent as good, there was nothing fundamentally wrong with their plan.
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Post by The Madrid One Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:28 am

thats your opinion, and i dont think you are really getting my point, united didnt go out there the best way they could.

putting that aside, i already gave my defenition of what it is to play like a great team.

but u are a barca fan as well.

thats 2 barca fans counting..
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Post by Onyx Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:29 am

End of the day it's about entertaining the fans too. :coffee:

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:30 am

buddytaller wrote:The logic is simple the only objective measure of greatness in football is trophies, the Netherlands squad of 74 was largely composed of the Ajax team that had won the European Cup in 71,72 and 73. And they made it as far as the final of the World Cup, any random team that plays beautiful and get knocked out at the first round of a world cup will not be counted as great.

The Madrid of the 50's, the Milan of the 80's the Liverpool of the 70's and the present Barcelona have one thing in common they have won a lot of football honours! It may not be the sole measure of greatness but it is the most accurate.
But that's not true to some other teams. Was the Brazil of '82, which is remembered more than the winner, full of players from one club that won a lot? What about the Mighty Magyars? I think there is a distinct difference between teams that win a lot, and teams that win a lot in a distinct style and thus take ownership. Not every team that has gone through a great winning streak is remembered fondly or even as great, yet these didn't at all and are.


Last edited by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by The Franchise Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:33 am

The Madrid One wrote:thats your opinion, and i dont think you are really getting my point, united didnt go out there the best way they could.

putting that aside, i already gave my defenition of what it is to play like a great team.

but u are a barca fan as well.

thats 2 barca fans counting..

Stop your nonsense, seriously. You keep saying "you proved my point" or "you dont get it"....everyone gets it, its a simple concept, we just dont agree with it.

Yes, Man Utd went out the best way they could.

How was defending with 10 men behind the ball ever going to work in a one legged final? In some point, they have to score a goal..you cant do that with 1 player alone up front...you cant do that with 3 players up front...you need a team, you need players making moves and moving defenders out of position.

What proof is there Madrid's way of playing was best for them? They didn't win either...at no point was they even winning.

Utd wouldnt even of scored their goal if they played different, it came from them pressing the throw in and forcing an error.

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Post by The Madrid One Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:35 am

ur a barcelona fan you will never agree with me. lol i thought u understood this.

different philosphies man, u will never understand what i mean, and if you do, you wont accept it. stop wasting ur time.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:37 am

This is a retarded question. You only adapt when you are the weaker team, not the stronger one (or atleast dont believe you are). If you never change your style or adapt it doesnt mean you are the best, if you are the best however you dont change change your style.
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