Quran burning: Obama apologizes

someone mentioned polio

india is finally not a polio endemic country


if that isnt the sign of things becoming better , i dont know what is

RedOranje wrote:Viva doesn't "hate" religion.

Exactly.
And if I did, my past arguments on the matter certainly wouldn't qualify as "blind".

The India thing is pleasant news, though, but also tragically reminds me of the gaps in medical care between countries over the world. There's a vaccine against Polio that works perfectly fine - the entire disease could be eradicated by now.

Lord Hades wrote:someone mentioned polio

india is finally not a polio endemic country


if that isnt the sign of things becoming better , i dont know what is

Funny you should mention that. Religious fundamentalism was perhaps one of the biggest reasons behind polio's prolonged lifespan.

Wiki sums it up nicely:

Islam and Judaism, religions with dietary prohibitions that regard particular animals as unclean, make exceptions for medical treatments derived from those animals.[7][8]

Opposition by Muslim fundamentalists is a major factor in the failure of polio immunization programs. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, the Taliban have issued fatwas opposing vaccination as an attempt to avert Allah's will, and as an American plot to sterilize Muslims. The Taliban have kidnapped, beaten, and assassinated vaccination officials, including assassinating the head of Pakistan's vaccination campaign in Bajaur Agency.[9]

In the early 2000s Islamic religious leaders in northern Nigeria advised their followers not to have their children vaccinated with oral polio vaccine. The boycott caused cases of polio to arise not only in Nigeria but also in neighboring countries. The followers were also wary of other vaccinations, and Nigeria reported over 20,000 measles cases and nearly 600 deaths from measles from January through March 2005.[10] In 2006 Nigeria accounted for over half of all new polio cases worldwide.[11] Outbreaks continued thereafter; for example, at least 200 children died in a late-2007 measles outbreak in Borno State.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion

I truly hope there is a hell awaiting such morons who battle disease prevention.

That's nothing to do with Islam, nor does Islam Oppose Vaccination in any case.

Muslim fundamentalists got nothing to do with Islam. :vagi:

Well, let's just broaden it and say "religion", and not point fingers too precisely.

Senor Penguin wrote:

Lord Hades wrote:someone mentioned polio

india is finally not a polio endemic country


if that isnt the sign of things becoming better , i dont know what is

Funny you should mention that. Religious fundamentalism was perhaps one of the biggest reasons behind polio's prolonged lifespan.

Wiki sums it up nicely:

Islam and Judaism, religions with dietary prohibitions that regard particular animals as unclean, make exceptions for medical treatments derived from those animals.[7][8]

Opposition by Muslim fundamentalists is a major factor in the failure of polio immunization programs. In Pakistan and Afghanistan, the Taliban have issued fatwas opposing vaccination as an attempt to avert Allah's will, and as an American plot to sterilize Muslims. The Taliban have kidnapped, beaten, and assassinated vaccination officials, including assassinating the head of Pakistan's vaccination campaign in Bajaur Agency.[9]

In the early 2000s Islamic religious leaders in northern Nigeria advised their followers not to have their children vaccinated with oral polio vaccine. The boycott caused cases of polio to arise not only in Nigeria but also in neighboring countries. The followers were also wary of other vaccinations, and Nigeria reported over 20,000 measles cases and nearly 600 deaths from measles from January through March 2005.[10] In 2006 Nigeria accounted for over half of all new polio cases worldwide.[11] Outbreaks continued thereafter; for example, at least 200 children died in a late-2007 measles outbreak in Borno State.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_and_religion

I truly hope there is a hell awaiting such morons who battle disease prevention.

no sympathy for these guys, but in india it was more of a case of ignorance and lack of work ethic to eradicating it

VivaStPauli wrote:Muslim fundamentalists got nothing to do with Islam. :vagi:

Well, let's just broaden it and say "religion", and not point fingers too precisely.

but religion doesnt oppose it so why put it in this context anyways ?

India still has a lot of Tubercolosis.

I suffered from the same bacteria that causes it, It just targeted some other part of the same organ [lung] for a reason best known to it.

Lord Hades wrote:


no sympathy for these guys, but in india it was more of a case of ignorance and lack of work ethic to eradicating it

There was no dearth of work ethic and funding in India for polio eradication which was heavily supported by the WHO. It was mainly a case of lack of hygiene and constant migration of people carrying the virus from state to state. You should see some of the villages in UP and Bihar. And then you would wonder how they have managed to eradicate it.

In India the muslims thought the polio vaccination drives that were undertaken was actually a government plot to sterilize them to prevent the growth of the muslim population.

On a similar vein, there is still forced sterilization going on in India

RealGunner wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:Muslim fundamentalists got nothing to do with Islam. :vagi:

Well, let's just broaden it and say "religion", and not point fingers too precisely.

but religion doesnt oppose it so why put it in this context anyways ?

Because religious fundamentalists did it, using religion as their argument? No matter what the mainstream position is, they did it.

Or let's take a less obvious example: what about Jehovas Witnesses bleeding out? They can't get transfusions.

VivaStPauli wrote:

RealGunner wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:Muslim fundamentalists got nothing to do with Islam. :vagi:

Well, let's just broaden it and say "religion", and not point fingers too precisely.

but religion doesnt oppose it so why put it in this context anyways ?

Because religious fundamentalists did it, using religion as their argument? No matter what the mainstream position is, they did it.

Or let's take a less obvious example: what about Jehovas Witnesses bleeding out? They can't get transfusions.

If you knew the slightest bit about Islamic Fudrmentalism and it's large disparity from the doctrine of Islam itself, you would understand most of their actions are based from warped context from the Quran that literally has NOTHING to do with the Quran itself. Obviously they have more devious motives than using the true word of their religion.

Which is why any Muslim with a brain and knowledge of his own religion ridicule Islamic fundamentalists and the irony of their motives .

That doesn't change the fact that they are using religion as their excuse. What I don't get is why people are so set on arguing with Viva when he's not insulting Islam or attacking it in any way, he's simply pointing out that some people use a version (twisted though it may be) to justify such things.

It's no different from people around the world using Christian Rightwing Fundamentalists as an example of flaws in the US.

VivaStPauli wrote:

RealGunner wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:Muslim fundamentalists got nothing to do with Islam. :vagi:

Well, let's just broaden it and say "religion", and not point fingers too precisely.

but religion doesnt oppose it so why put it in this context anyways ?

Because religious fundamentalists did it, using religion as their argument? No matter what the mainstream position is, they did it.

Or let's take a less obvious example: what about Jehovas Witnesses bleeding out? They can't get transfusions.

I am not having a go at you at all man, Just wanted to clear that what those people believe in is totally wrong, Islam says killing of one person is equivalent to killing of whole man kind. So if they retards are blocking kids of vaccination such as anti polio medication than they are in the wrong.

The people are ignorant, using religion in a wrong way to justifty their actions, which ultimately leads the people to believe Islam is wrong on that particular aspect, but it isnt.

I know what they believe in is totally wrong. I have enough grasp of the Quran to know that it quite explicitly forbids murder. That doesn't mean that blind faith/belief isn't a destructive force in the world.

I am not attacking Islam or Christianity when I am attacking islamist or christian fundamentalist - this distinction is very important to me, as it should be to all of you.

Mainstream Islam isn't driving people to be genocidal sociopaths, neither is mainstream Christianity. I still think both religions, and in fact, all religion, are destructive forces, but much less so than fundamentalism.

And that Religion can be used in a "wrong" way is exactly why I am criticizing it:

The environment religion thrives in, the environment religion fosters and creates - that is the exact same environment fundamentalists eventually spring from.

Without all the "you don't have to know when you can believe"-doctrin there would be substantially less people who'll just believe what they're told. Bin Laden didn't commit suicide attacks himself, poor, gullible young people did, who were brought up in an environment that despises criticism and free thought. That is the part of religion which I fear.
Yes, it could be a force of good, if all Imams, Priests, and the Pope were nice people. But power corrupts, and Religion gives religious scholars immense power, power they're mostly unfit to wield.

So yes, I will defend Muslims against islamophobes, I'll be on your side in that battle. But, as a whole, I am opposed to the entire concept of religion. I don't seek to persecute religious people, I just believe if everyone was properly and truthfully educated, religion would eventually vanish.
And please note how I mean "I just believe" in that context - I am not talking about faith.

(This rant is the long version of what RedOranje just wrote.)

That is a great post, and i would be giving it a thumbs up if i wasnt a thiest


anyways, what would you prefer the society to be like, if you are against the concept of religion.

VivaStPauli wrote:I know what they believe in is totally wrong. I have enough grasp of the Quran to know that it quite explicitly forbids murder. That doesn't mean that blind faith/belief isn't a destructive force in the world.

I am not attacking Islam or Christianity when I am attacking islamist or christian fundamentalist - this distinction is very important to me, as it should be to all of you.

Mainstream Islam isn't driving people to be genocidal sociopaths, neither is mainstream Christianity. I still think both religions, and in fact, all religion, are destructive forces, but much less so than fundamentalism.

And that Religion can be used in a "wrong" way is exactly why I am criticizing it:

The environment religion thrives in, the environment religion fosters and creates - that is the exact same environment fundamentalists eventually spring from.

Without all the "you don't have to know when you can believe"-doctrin there would be substantially less people who'll just believe what they're told. Bin Laden didn't commit suicide attacks himself, poor, gullible young people did, who were brought up in an environment that despises criticism and free thought. That is the part of religion which I fear.
Yes, it could be a force of good, if all Imams, Priests, and the Pope were nice people. But power corrupts, and Religion gives religious scholars immense power, power they're mostly unfit to wield.

So yes, I will defend Muslims against islamophobes, I'll be on your side in that battle. But, as a whole, I am opposed to the entire concept of religion. I don't seek to persecute religious people, I just believe if everyone was properly and truthfully educated, religion would eventually vanish.
And please note how I mean "I just believe" in that context - I am not talking about faith.

(This rant is the long version of what RedOranje just wrote.)

Absolutely wonderful post. So in retrospect, I apologize for misinterpreting your stance and intention.

You hold great conviction in your sublime conclusive statement, yet I would like to point out that individuals like RG and I will be unhindered in our attempts in somewhat changing your stances on religion along with instilling into you a more positive light upon how religion (monotheism to be exact) can and has been used in a resourceful and commendable fashion. Expanding upon that, our objective would also be to bring upon the brilliance (or profoundness) of the Islamic holy book and as we continue this debate, since many of the other have done a rather poorly researched and debated job in their persuasions and presentations on this thread.

It simply is within our principle to spread the word of our own religion and god as which is why some of the followers of a certain religion in this thread have spent so much time in engaging in these illustrious debates.

I for one have the idea you possess an open enough mind to take into consideration our own perceptions and presentations on this spanned debate, as obviously this will depend on your reasoning and judgement of what we present.

I would also like to point out off the record I am not a follower of Islam but of Christian faith along with having science as my pre-eminent form of pure reason and critique, not that this changes what I have to profess.

I look forward to engaging in future discussions on this whether sooner or later.

Once again though, +1 on your post.

P.S excuse my rambling here for this is my habit when it is hours past my bedtime.

And I wish for you to try and convince me. Debating religion with people like you actually makes me sleep better at night, because you have a very mature approach to Religion and faith.

I still think you wouldn'T miss much if you didn't have your faith, but you also obviously don't use your beliefs to justify irrational action. I'm afraid religion is easily used for that, but at the same time I don't agree with atheists who think that religion automatically leads to ignorance and hatred. I just think it's an inherent danger of a belief system that is based on faith instead of fact.

But religion is not alone in that. Conspiracy theories and pseudos-science are just as bad.

I'd take a moderate muslim/christian over a "9/11-truther" any day.

i took offence btw viva, i dont have a mature approach to religion

Actually meant you and Arq both, but forgot you because I was replying to Arq :X

Arquitecto wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:I know what they believe in is totally wrong. I have enough grasp of the Quran to know that it quite explicitly forbids murder. That doesn't mean that blind faith/belief isn't a destructive force in the world.

I am not attacking Islam or Christianity when I am attacking islamist or christian fundamentalist - this distinction is very important to me, as it should be to all of you.

Mainstream Islam isn't driving people to be genocidal sociopaths, neither is mainstream Christianity. I still think both religions, and in fact, all religion, are destructive forces, but much less so than fundamentalism.

And that Religion can be used in a "wrong" way is exactly why I am criticizing it:

The environment religion thrives in, the environment religion fosters and creates - that is the exact same environment fundamentalists eventually spring from.

Without all the "you don't have to know when you can believe"-doctrin there would be substantially less people who'll just believe what they're told. Bin Laden didn't commit suicide attacks himself, poor, gullible young people did, who were brought up in an environment that despises criticism and free thought. That is the part of religion which I fear.
Yes, it could be a force of good, if all Imams, Priests, and the Pope were nice people. But power corrupts, and Religion gives religious scholars immense power, power they're mostly unfit to wield.

So yes, I will defend Muslims against islamophobes, I'll be on your side in that battle. But, as a whole, I am opposed to the entire concept of religion. I don't seek to persecute religious people, I just believe if everyone was properly and truthfully educated, religion would eventually vanish.
And please note how I mean "I just believe" in that context - I am not talking about faith.

(This rant is the long version of what RedOranje just wrote.)

Absolutely wonderful post. So in retrospect, I apologize for misinterpreting your stance and intention.

You hold great conviction in your sublime conclusive statement, yet I would like to point out that individuals like RG and I will be unhindered in our attempts in somewhat changing your stances on religion along with instilling into you a more positive light upon how religion (monotheism to be exact) can and has been used in a resourceful and commendable fashion. Expanding upon that, our objective would also be to bring upon the brilliance (or profoundness) of the Islamic holy book and as we continue this debate, since many of the other have done a rather poorly researched and debated job in their persuasions and presentations on this thread.

It simply is within our principle to spread the word of our own religion and god as which is why some of the followers of a certain religion in this thread have spent so much time in engaging in these illustrious debates.

I for one have the idea you possess an open enough mind to take into consideration our own perceptions and presentations on this spanned debate, as obviously this will depend on your reasoning and judgement of what we present.

I would also like to point out off the record I am not a follower of Islam but of Christian faith along with having science as my pre-eminent form of pure reason and critique, not that this changes what I have to profess.

I look forward to engaging in future discussions on this whether sooner or later.

Once again though, +1 on your post.

P.S excuse my rambling here for this is my habit when it is hours past my bedtime.

For many people in the West, the term “Islamic fundamentalism” evokes images of hostage crises, embassies under siege, hijackings, and suicide bombers. But these images hardly present a comprehensive picture. While some Islamic militants try to reach their goals through violence, the majority of Islamic activists work within mainstream society, participating in the electoral process. The ranks of Islamic fundamentalists include members of non-governmental Muslim organizations that provide much-needed services to the poor through Islamic schools, medical clinics, social welfare agencies, and other institutions. At the fringes are extremist groups like the al-Qaeda network of Saudi-born millionaire Osama bin Laden that engage in a global war of terrorism.
The reassertion of Islam and Islamic values in Muslim politics and society over the past 30 years is often referred to in the West as the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. However, the word fundamentalism, which originated in Christianity, can be misleading when it is used to describe Islam or Muslim countries. The conservative monarchy of Saudi Arabia, the radical socialist state of Libya, and clerically governed Iran have all been described as “fundamentalist,” but this description fails to take into account vast differences in their governments and policies. Political analysts prefer to use the expressions “political Islam” or “Islamism” when discussing Islam’s many-faceted roles in current social and political movements

Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Iran are all inhumane for the same "fundamentalist" reasoning, though, so that term is sound and holds it's ground.

VivaStPauli wrote:Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Iran are all inhumane for the same "fundamentalist" reasoning, though, so that term is sound and holds it's ground.

Islamic Fundamentalism means diverse political and social movements in Muslim countries of North Africa, the Middle East, and South Asia that have as their goal the creation of more Islamically oriented states and societies based on the principles and values of Islam. Nothing to do with inhumane

so killing hordes of other people to accomplish the creation of islamic oriented states isnt inhumane right?

Spooony wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Iran are all inhumane for the same "fundamentalist" reasoning, though, so that term is sound and holds it's ground.

Islamic Fundamentalism means diverse political and social movements in Muslim countries of North Africa, the Middle East, and South Asia that have as their goal the creation of more Islamically oriented states and societies based on the principles and values of Islam. Nothing to do with inhumane

Yes it does. Fundamentalist Islam, just as fundamentalist Christianity, does place several laws from scripture obove worldly laws that are highly outdated, violate basic human rights, and/or are just morally objectable.

Name me one islamist fundamentalist movement in power that doesn't violate the human rights charta.

well im procrastinating from studying so i just spent a solid half hour reading this thread from top to bottom and i was quite surprised that i got really intrested in the debate, its a shame i didnt find the thread earlier really.
Anyway i know its a bit late to be adding my 2 cents on the past topics of the thread but i agree with just about everything Viva said, especially this, lthoug theres no chance i could word it that well

VivaStPauli wrote:I know what they believe in is totally wrong. I have enough grasp of the Quran to know that it quite explicitly forbids murder. That doesn't mean that blind faith/belief isn't a destructive force in the world.

I am not attacking Islam or Christianity when I am attacking islamist or christian fundamentalist - this distinction is very important to me, as it should be to all of you.

Mainstream Islam isn't driving people to be genocidal sociopaths, neither is mainstream Christianity. I still think both religions, and in fact, all religion, are destructive forces, but much less so than fundamentalism.

And that Religion can be used in a "wrong" way is exactly why I am criticizing it:

The environment religion thrives in, the environment religion fosters and creates - that is the exact same environment fundamentalists eventually spring from.

Without all the "you don't have to know when you can believe"-doctrin there would be substantially less people who'll just believe what they're told. Bin Laden didn't commit suicide attacks himself, poor, gullible young people did, who were brought up in an environment that despises criticism and free thought. That is the part of religion which I fear.
Yes, it could be a force of good, if all Imams, Priests, and the Pope were nice people. But power corrupts, and Religion gives religious scholars immense power, power they're mostly unfit to wield.

So yes, I will defend Muslims against islamophobes, I'll be on your side in that battle. But, as a whole, I am opposed to the entire concept of religion. I don't seek to persecute religious people, I just believe if everyone was properly and truthfully educated, religion would eventually vanish.
And please note how I mean "I just believe" in that context - I am not talking about faith.

(This rant is the long version of what RedOranje just wrote.)

having said that even though arq is pretty much on the other side of the fence to viva, everything he wrote was really intresting too

VivaStPauli wrote:

Spooony wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Iran are all inhumane for the same "fundamentalist" reasoning, though, so that term is sound and holds it's ground.

Islamic Fundamentalism means diverse political and social movements in Muslim countries of North Africa, the Middle East, and South Asia that have as their goal the creation of more Islamically oriented states and societies based on the principles and values of Islam. Nothing to do with inhumane

Yes it does. Fundamentalist Islam, just as fundamentalist Christianity, does place several laws from scripture obove worldly laws that are highly outdated, violate basic human rights, and/or are just morally objectable.

Name me one islamist fundamentalist movement in power that doesn't violate the human rights charta.

Well, it is not "inhumane" to them. They are merely carrying out "God's will". They could care less about the western world's rational morality.