Re: Quran burning: Obama apologizes

by Grande_Milano Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:55 pm

Look at Morrocan laws:

''the vote of man equals two"

''infidel cant object in the court against muslim''

Just some of them.

Here is some thing for liberals and people who dont know:

There isnt such thing as ''moderate'' islam. Muslims, the true believers are told to follow Coran word by word, as it is book written by the Prophet. Islam is ideology not just religion that narrates how to do things: run the gov, law system, banking, how to eat and even how to go to toilet.

You may not like jews or Indians, but these people felt on their skin what is Islam when it is followed completely. Thus, they are very hostile and ruthless against it.

There isnt such thing as moderate Islam, you are either follow it completely, or you are not a Muslim, same with Christianity.

by free_cat Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:03 pm

che wrote:if this mindset was limited to isolated incidents and not to people actively running countries, i wouldn't

sadly...

We know that all religions have different interpretations, and it seems that many Islam interpretations are eager to violence. The fact that there are so many religions, and each of them has so many interpretations, should be a clue to people to not believe in organised religion: all of them can't be true at the same time, hence, almost everyone is wrong for sure about their religious believes.

Finally, religion fosters extremism. It fosters uncritical thinking, thus people can be easily manipulated, and we find only extremists who are religious. There is no such thing as agnostics/atheists extremits that go around killing people or doing ethnic cleansing in the name of agnosticism/atheism.

As they say, there is good people doing bad things, and bad people doing bad things. I takes religion for good people to do bad things.

by Senor Penguin Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:35 pm

free_cat wrote:
che wrote:if this mindset was limited to isolated incidents and not to people actively running countries, i wouldn't

sadly...

We know that all religions have different interpretations, and it seems that many Islam interpretations are eager to violence.

Such is the case with all religions. If Islam seems more liable to create extremism then it is more a result of the circumstances Muslims find themselves in rather than Islam itself.

While the "original" Quran does indeed have a lot of appalling scripture it has also been infiltrated by foreign sources which only makes it worse and thus spreads more violence. For example: Wahhabism is largely based on wholly adulterated scripture, much of it being sponsored by the Saudi government. Amongst many things they've added Jews and Christians as enemies or perpetrators of certain acts - as the targets for Muslims.

In other words: People in corrupted environments are more liable to become corrupted themselves. Religion only adds to the fuel.

by TalkingReckless Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:47 pm

Senor Penguin wrote:
free_cat wrote:
che wrote:if this mindset was limited to isolated incidents and not to people actively running countries, i wouldn't

sadly...

We know that all religions have different interpretations, and it seems that many Islam interpretations are eager to violence.
Such is the case with all religions. If Islam seems more liable to create extremism then it is more a result of the circumstances Muslims find themselves in rather than Islam itself.

While the "original" Quran does indeed have a lot of appalling scripture it has also been infiltrated by foreign sources which only makes it worse and thus spreads more violence. For example: Wahhabism is largely based on wholly adulterated scripture, much of it being sponsored by the Saudi government. Amongst many things they've added Jews and Christians as enemies or perpetrators of certain acts - as the targets for Muslims.

In other words: People in corrupted environments are more liable to become corrupted themselves. Religion only adds to the fuel.

Quran has always stayed untouched..... but then there are things that sects of Islams follow, there is a Hadiath and Sunnah.... which are things Muhammad's did or told....people in the complied this after his death.... i don't full believe in all the things in the Hadiath and Sunnah.... For me Quran comes first...therefore i am Quranists

by Senor Penguin Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:07 pm

The problem with the Quran and its (mis)interpretations is that it is mostly intelligible in Arabic, which leaves it liable to a lot of inflictions.

An example: Some scholars have actually analyzed some scripture which may, after adding a few tiny dots to the scripture, suggest that the celestial reward is not the infamous 72 virgins but instead 72 grapes! (I know it's part of the Hadiths but it illustrates the idiomatic nature of Arabic)

You'd think that an omnipotent being could foresee such ambiguity in his very own manual of worship ... Apparently not.

by Senor Penguin Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:20 pm

free_cat wrote:
supra969 wrote:
free_cat wrote:
zizzle wrote:seriously though muslims burn their own qurans when they get old instead of throwing them in the garbage, Qurans with printing errors in them are also burned so the act itself isnt the problem but rather the intentions. So if it's true that it was burned accidentally then there shouldnt be an issue in the first place

Even if he burnt it with the intention to offend Islam, he doesn't deserves any punishment. It's an act of free speach that doesn't hurt anyone. He is just burning a paper.

Some religious people feel offended? Well guys, just toughen up a bit. If you can't cope with someone burning a paper, you'd better be prepared for the blows live gives you sometimes.

hmmm but if some one talks about the Zionist's its considerd antisemitism

Talking about Zionism is perfectly respectable.

What is not respectable, is talking about seggregating and/or killing jews = antisemitism = hate speach.

Agreed.

Zionists, however, interpret it as "anti-semitic" regardless, simply because we don't succumb to their inane view that Jews are deserving of many privileges (presumably stemming from the "chosen people" belief).

by RealGunner Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:31 pm

Grande_Milano wrote:Look at Morrocan laws:

''the vote of man equals two"

That is Country's own law, nothing to do with Islam

''infidel cant object in the court against muslim''

Again Country's own law.

Just some of them.

Here is some thing for liberals and people who dont know:

There isnt such thing as ''moderate'' islam. Muslims, the true believers are told to follow Coran word by word, as it is book written by the Prophet. Islam is ideology not just religion that narrates how to do things: run the gov, law system, banking, how to eat and even how to go to toilet.

Quran* not coran

It wasn't written by the prophet.... Shows how much you know...

by RealGunner Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:36 pm

Senor Penguin wrote:The problem with the Quran and its (mis)interpretations is that it is mostly intelligible in Arabic, which leaves it liable to a lot of inflictions.

An example: Some scholars have actually analyzed some scripture which may, after adding a few tiny dots to the scripture, suggest that the celestial reward is not the infamous 72 virgins but instead 72 grapes! (I know it's part of the Hadiths but it illustrates the idiomatic nature of Arabic)

You'd think that an omnipotent being could foresee such ambiguity in his very own manual of worship ... Apparently not.

You can't litteraly translate the Quran because the Arabic in it is unique and has no meaning at all in any other language. It is just there and makes sense for the people who understands it, which many do not.

Thats why There are some idiotic Translations out there. It is easy to say It spreads Violence but it really doesn't.

It's the same with Bible, people dont get that there are two different Creation accounts in Genesis chapters and it is nothing close to what it sounds like. Holy books are harry potter books which is "what u read is what u get " They are filled with symbols and signs

by •MilanDevil• Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:03 pm

If we are going to talk about Islam then I would say it is in its worst state. I am a muslim but I understand the way in which others view Islam. It is difficult to understand the whole situation since you have the bad Muslims representing it and the words being misinterpreted, this drives other people away, but if only others ignored everything and just looked at the book, answers would unfold, however, I beg you to be unbiased while reading it and seek for knowledge as knowledge is power and with the Quran you would have your answer. I honestly dislike the fact that the Quran was brought down in the middle east but I believe there is a wisdom behind it from god as there has always been.

by free_cat Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:12 pm

A book from middle ages like Quran doesn't have much knowledge in it. Like the bible from bronze age to iron age doesn't have knoweledge in it.
Mostly the opposite, both are good examples of real world missconceptions and contradictions.

by Le Samourai Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:24 pm

Religous books offer an ounce of wisdom in between it's lines of ignorance.

I agree though, they are all very incoherent , easy to pick apart.People laugh at the Church of the flying Sphagetti monster but I think if it had a Roman army behind it back in 300 it would probably be the most practiced religion today.

by TalkingReckless Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:51 pm

free_cat wrote:A book from middle ages like Quran doesn't have much knowledge in it. Like the bible from bronze age to iron age doesn't have knoweledge in it.
Mostly the opposite, both are good examples of real world missconceptions and contradictions.

have you ever read the quran????? if not then how can you say it has no knowledge....

there are so many things in the quran that have been recently discovered by scicene.... there are details but anatomy, human birth, solar systems etc throught the quran.....

by Senor Penguin Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:04 pm

Whatever wisdom one may gain from religion can't really compare to the wisdom gathered by freethinkers throughout the ages. You can attain much more knowledge simply by reading the works of people such as Shakespeare and David Hume. None of them claiming to be of God or having connections to God.

by Le Samourai Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:25 pm

I agree but you have to admit even guys like Aristotle or even the Greco-Roman moralists like Plutarch or Cicero offer just as much.

The Vedas are amazing literature, they blow the Quran and the bible out of the water(no offence) as far as wisdom goes.

by TalkingReckless Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:35 pm

nowhere does in any of the holy books does it say you can't think on your on, and that the religion is only the true answer to heaven, nirvana or whatever you believe.... there are many stories of unbelievers all all books about them going to those places because they lived a true life....

by Grande_Milano Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:49 pm

RealGunner wrote:
Grande_Milano wrote:Look at Morrocan laws:

''the vote of man equals two"

That is Country's own law, nothing to do with Islam

''infidel cant object in the court against muslim''

Again Country's own law.

Just some of them.

Here is some thing for liberals and people who dont know:

There isnt such thing as ''moderate'' islam. Muslims, the true believers are told to follow Coran word by word, as it is book written by the Prophet. Islam is ideology not just religion that narrates how to do things: run the gov, law system, banking, how to eat and even how to go to toilet.

Quran* not coran

It wasn't written by the prophet.... Shows how much you know...

1) Laws derived from culture's values. European civilisation built on christian, Indian on ...etc

2) Yeah, given by Angel Gabriel. I believe it. No

by Grande_Milano Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:51 pm

imalegend wrote:
free_cat wrote:A book from middle ages like Quran doesn't have much knowledge in it. Like the bible from bronze age to iron age doesn't have knoweledge in it.
Mostly the opposite, both are good examples of real world missconceptions and contradictions.

have you ever read the quran????? if not then how can you say it has no knowledge....

there are so many things in the quran that have been recently discovered by scicene.... there are details but anatomy, human birth, solar systems etc throught the quran.....

Maybe because at that time it was all discovered/being discovered by scientists, also minding Islam worked with science quite well unlike Christianity. Just good relationship

by zizzle Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:02 am

actually our literature dictates that free thinking leads to true belief, and it starts with your interpretation of the scriptures and the meaning behind them, and while it will be hard for a non believer to draw knowledge from the Quran without first understanding the history and the context of that time (even if many verses are independent of context) you can learn much by studying the life and the ways of the prophet(pbuh) after all he's one of the most influential people in the history of mankind and he simply cant achieve this status if he wasn't an exceptional person.

point two, the islamic history is FULL of free thinking scholars/philosophers, more than i can remember, but notable examples are Avicenna, Averroes and Al-Farabi, those people not only preserved and spread the work of the great Greek philosophers but also enriched it and used it as a standpoint to create the humongous philosophical literature that was the base for the European reinsurance.

by free_cat Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:24 am

imalegend wrote:
free_cat wrote:A book from middle ages like Quran doesn't have much knowledge in it. Like the bible from bronze age to iron age doesn't have knoweledge in it.
Mostly the opposite, both are good examples of real world missconceptions and contradictions.

have you ever read the quran????? if not then how can you say it has no knowledge....

there are so many things in the quran that have been recently discovered by scicene.... there are details but anatomy, human birth, solar systems etc throught the quran.....

:lol!: I know the kind of "prophecies" Quran is supposed to achieve, but many of them are just bullshit and/or made up through all these interpretations.

In the end, you just use the interpretations excuse to adapt the book to what your interests.

You should see that the fact there are different and clashing interpretations, (Shia islam, Suni islam, and others) directly means that at least ALL THE INTERPRETATIONS BUT ONE are WRONG.

And most likely, the other is too.

by Senor Penguin Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:54 am

Le Samourai wrote:I agree but you have to admit even guys like Aristotle or even the Greco-Roman moralists like Plutarch or Cicero offer just as much.

I was talking about the content found in religious books contra the knowledge obtained by people who were freethinkers with no affiliation to God. The latter brought about more knowledge without any divine help or claim thereof, with no religious scripture to boot.

This is not to say that people who were influenced by religion have not brought about knowledge throughout times. Muslims contributed heavily to the establishment of medicine and Muslims can boast having some of the finest and most extraordinary architecture - at least in early times. Contemporary "Islamic" architecture is quite obscene, I have to say. Razz

There is, however, a common misconception about this. People argue that religion made such people good and the credit should be given to it, which to me is extremely inane because that implies that nonbelievers or heathens are not good until they find faith. The truth is that you can find just as many (probably more) examples throughout history that paint a grotesque image of believers and the way they have obstructed knowledge and prosperity throughout time.

The Vedas are amazing literature, they blow the Quran and the bible out of the water(no offence) as far as wisdom goes.

I can only agree with you. Monotheistic religions pale in comparison. The largest monotheistic religions arose in some of the most illiterate places in the world, while people in many places of Asia had already established much wisdom without such books.

imalegend wrote:there are so many things in the quran that have been recently discovered by scicene.... there are details but anatomy, human birth, solar systems etc throught the quran.....

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan.

If it's the same evidence that someone provided on the old forums then it's pure nonsense.

by VivaStPauli Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:07 am

Grande_Milano wrote:There isnt such thing as ''moderate'' islam. Muslims, the true believers are told to follow Coran word by word, as it is book written by the Prophet. Islam is ideology not just religion that narrates how to do things: run the gov, law system, banking, how to eat and even how to go to toilet.

Just like Christianity, which is to be followed by the letter. And it works because nobody actually does it. Same with Islam. 99% of Muslims you will meet will ignore at least some minor stuff from the Quran, same with Christians who'll ignore at least some parts of the bible.

Hell, well over 90% of catholics in Europe use contraception. They don't do it because Christianity has a built-in moderation device, it's because people tend to be moderate, if not pushed to extremes.

The same holds true for the muslim world, the problem isn't islam, it's poverty and lack of education.

Okay, if I could choose I'd rather live in a world entirely without religion, but the idea that Islam is somehow a 'worse' religion than any other is preposterous - they're all utterly wrong from my point of view.

Just think about it. How do Christians think about the Quran? How do muslims think about the writings of Confucius?

That's how I feel about all of religion, but I still can't deny that both the Bible and the Quran specifically forbid you from becoming a terrorist. So don't blame Islam, blame the insane sheiks, imams and false prophets forcing or manipulating young kids into blowing themselves up.

by zizzle Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:13 am

forget about all the miracles, alot of them are far fetched and the ones that are not are basically lost in translation, however, one clear and direct miracle should be enough, no ?

"With power did We construct Heaven. Verily, We are expanding it". (51:47)

big bang anyone ? it cant be more direct than that

another verse speaks about reverting creation, also in clear terms, and that's consistant with the big crunch theory

by che Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:22 am

zizzle wrote:

another verse speaks about reverting creation, also in clear terms, and that's consistant with the big crunch theory

this is brilliant lmao

science is wrong when it completely contradicts the "holy books", except where it seems to make the same point, in which case yay science, we've proven the existence of god

by zizzle Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:38 am

che wrote:
zizzle wrote:

another verse speaks about reverting creation, also in clear terms, and that's consistant with the big crunch theory

this is brilliant lmao

science is wrong when it completely contradicts the "holy books", except where it seems to make the same point, in which case yay science, we've proven the existence of god

I dont know what kind of person you think you are talking to but im willing to reconsider my faith if you show me a clear scientific contradiction between quran and science. For me science and religion have to be consistant or else one of them is wrong, and if we're talking about absolute scientific facts then i cant simply disregard science when the contradict with my faith. Faith and Science/logic go hand in hand

so back to the point, what's your opinion on what i posted ? can you at least admit that by mere coincidence the quran is consistent with a scientific fact ?

by che Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:49 am

zizzle wrote:

can you at least admit that by mere coincidence the quran is consistent with a scientific fact ?

yes, mere coincidence being the key word, like nostradamus's "prophecies"

as for contradicting facts, the old testament is about as scientifically accurate as lord of the rings so that's a good start... i know it's not the quran but i'm pretty sure islam acknowledges the torah world origin story

and as far as quran itself is concerned, i'd start with the fact that talking to supernatural beings means that you're psychotic, not a prophet... an illiterate writing a holy book from what god told him is a scam, not a miracle (because miracles don't happen, SCIENCE!!!)

other than that, if you feel you've got time... http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Erroneous-Science-and-Contradictions-in-Quran.htm

it's a website so apply the usual pinch of salt but still...

by Senor Penguin Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:57 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyqkAFCaNQM&feature=plcp&context=C3241953UDOEgsToPDskLlk9K_CJTx1jhOi-61mtfz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUvZx679Me0&feature=plcp&context=C321e991UDOEgsToPDskL5KYDMbx-8NqIFbkhrWbHw

Ambiguity, inflection and contradiction. That is all. In essence, everything associated with religion is precarious and as such it doesn't hold up in the end.

I'm afraid that Islam does no better at "science" than Christianity. Which is no surprise because they're both plagiarized from Judaism, which is equally nonsensical when it comes to science. Not to mention that Judaism, too, was plagiarized from earlier mythologies.

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