I'm just honestly dumbfounded that in the face of such blatant corruption the entire FIFA board has not resigned yet Juve-style. Qatar is exactly what it is, and we're not going to change it. The main issue is the corruption

You know I used to laugh at the right wing rednecks who would believe everything they read on Facebook, but now I'm doing the same with these virtue-signaling westerners who believe every tweet or headline that paints Qatar in a negative light. They are putting on the mask that they are going on some moral crusade, but in reality they're just butthurt that Qatar isn't providing them with the degenerate festival-like atmosphere that they've come to associate with going to the World Cup. Banning alcohol was a bigger concern to them than some 35 year old Nepali man dying from building the stadium. Those are the kind of people white people look down on in their everyday life anyway. Am I supposed to suddenly believe they truly care about them or their wellbeing? The quicker people realize that a lot of the 'outrage' stems from closeted Islamophobia/Anti-Arabism the better.

Should Qatar have hosted the World Cup? I think if you asked a random person on the street they would immediately say no. On first inclination, my answer would've been no too. However, recently I've tried to see things from their perspective instead of just believing what everyone around me believes, and I do think they've been overly slighted. They absolutely have their faults, but I don't think they're especially unique in that regard. I recently did a thought experiment where I tried to view things from their perspective. Here were my findings:

1- The migrant worker death count.

6500 is the number people love to throw around, but that's been disproven many times. 6500 was the total amount of migrant deaths between 2011-2020 irrespective of cause. Even in the original BBC article where that was stated, they mentioned it as total deaths, but the western media has spun it to make it seem like it was all from stadium-building related deaths. Someone who died in a car accident was included in that total. The Qatari official claims 400-500 were directly from stadium-building. Now let's be discerning and not take what each party says at face value. The media is going to push their own agenda to paint Qatar in a bad light, and the Qatari official is going to undermine the numbers to paint his country in a positive light. If I was to guess it was probably closer to 1000-2000.

2- What do the numbers really mean?

Now, 1000 people dying from worker conditions is 1000 too high. But I don't live in a utopia. I understand Qatar is a middle eastern country. I also understand that they have a population of 3M, and 2M of those are migrant workers. I also understand that it is one of the hottest countries on earth. When you adjust for population and weather, some of those numbers don't surprise me. I'd love to see comparisons with other countries when you adjust those numbers. Qatar isn't alone in having poor safety protocols and they aren't alone in having poor worker protection rights. Most countries in that region are dealing with the same problem. A Bengali building a stadium in Qatar isn't much different than a Sudani building a stadium in Egypt. They are both immigrants who are working in poor and hot conditions and thus are more likely to die from respiratory factors.

3- Who was involved in building the stadiums?

If Westerners are so angry about these counts, why don't they hold the foreign companies who helped build those stadiums responsible too? No one talks about holding the big European or American Constructors accountable. Unless I have completely misunderstood the stadium construction business model, shouldn't they have a say on who they outsource their labour to?

4- Corruption

FIFA is one of the most corrupt organizations out there and I'm sure every country that has bid for the world cup helped bribe their way to it as well. Europe's favorite political activists, Germany, were being investigated for bribing their way to the 2006 World Cup. Beckenbauer got off the hook because the statute of limitations had expired. Am I supposed to believe Russia didn't bribe their way either? Or does the size of the bribe matter too? Beckenbauer was around 10M and I'm sure Qatar's was higher. Is that where the problem is? Where do you draw the line?

5- LGBTQ

I don't think any westerner is going to be able to view this topic from the lens of people in that region. Qatar is a Muslim country, and their religious book says it's not allowed and their book is the most sacred thing to them. In fact, almost all the countries around that region are anti-LGBTQ. If their religion, culture, and law believe it's not conductive to society, then why do you think you have the moral authority to tell them otherwise? As far, as I'm aware you can be gay in Qatar, just don't go out there publicly kissing other men. Guess what? The same applies to straight couples as well. I've never seen a couple in the Middle East kiss in public ever. PDA isn't a thing there and I don't know why westerners are so adamant on seeing PDA from gay people in the World Cup. Obviously gay people can't marry each other, but that's not a Qatar issue. Same-sex marriage is only legal in 30 countries. If you're going to beat Qatar with that stick you have to beat the other 165 countries as well. Now the common counter argument is that you can face capital punishment for being gay, yet no one is able to actually report a case of that happening in Qatar...

6- Agency

I understand "victim shaming" is a red zone nowadays, but I think that's a topic that should be discussed as well. Most Qatari migrant workers come from countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nepal. They obviously move to Qatar because they get a large pay bump which allows their family back home to live more comfortably. However, before they make the trip there they're very well aware of what the conditions might be. You'll be sleeping in a cramped room, you might have a barely functioning AC, you'll be working long hours in the extreme heat, and you risk getting your passport taken away. Although I believe Qatar reformed their kafala system a few years ago, and the whole missing passport situation doesn't really happen anymore. I also don't want to hear about them being 'mislead'. A lot of the people who move there, know others who are there as well, and are fully aware of the living conditions and working conditions. They aren't naive. They make the choice of going there knowing they aren't going to live comfortably, and that it might backfire. Also it's worth noting that a lot of these people come from poverty so their living conditions back home aren't exactly pristine.

7- Fan Culture

Another stick that is used to beat Qatar with is that they aren't a footballing nation. I hope the ones saying that felt the same about USA in 1994. Firstly, Football is the most popular sport there and they are the most recent Asian cup champions. Obviously, they aren't a powerhouse and this World Cup reflected that. However, to act like the people there, or the people in the nearby region aren't obsessed is so off the mark. Middle Easterners LOVE football. I know people in Saudi Arabia who made the trip to Qatar and they couldn't even speak coherently due to the happiness they had after beating Argentina. I also kept reading that Qatar was paying locals to cheer for big foreign teams. Now I can't verify if they did or did not, but this is another example of how ignorant people in the west are. Middle Eastern and South Asian countries have weak footballing teams, so they absolutely adore the bigger teams since their nations rarely play in the World Cup. I've met numerous Lebanese or Indian people who were fans of Brazil or Argentina. It's absolutely common. Just because they don't look the way people from those countries look doesn't necessarily mean they've been paid to support them by the government. Could the Qatari government have paid some of them to build up anticipation for the World Cup before the local fans came? Maybe. However, I'd veer that my initial assumption is more likely correct.

8- False promises

Now a lot of people were upset about this. Especially since Qatar tried to sell everyone that they'd have AC's in the stadium and that it would be played in the summer. False advertising is a stick you can beat them with. Especially with things like not banning beer until the final moments. However, I don't think either of those decisions were malicious. The media has had it out for them from day one, and if they announced back in 2010 that they would ban beer and that it would be hosted in the winter then they would've received more flak than they already have. I also don't think the winter world cup is the end of the world. It's different. Ronaldo said it was a challenge and it feels different, but he's excited to try it out. Personally I'm not a fan of it, but I do think it's been an interesting experience.

These are the 8-main points that are used against Qatar and I've decided to argue against them using a pro-Qatari standpoint. My verdict? I think a lot of their criticism has been fair, but a lot of it has also been a little extreme. Ultimately, this is a small, conservative country that's opening its doors to the entire world and they're trying to maintain their cultural and religious beliefs while doing so despite facing heavy criticism for it. My own life philosophy is that if I visit someone's house and they tell me to take my shoes off at their doorstep, that's what I will do. I won't go in with my shoes. I also won't criticize the owner of the house for not letting me enter with my shoes.

If you try to argue that only morally righteous countries should host it then that makes me laugh. No country is morally righteous. That's what amazes me about some of these westerners. Their countries have ruined countless of countries around the world and each country has a stained past and questionable present. Where do you draw the line? Farfan himself said it best when he was like Americans are being so loud about Qatar, when half their country vote conservative and are against the very subject they're protesting about. If you say hosting nations must be inclusive of everyone, then you're just limiting it to a small group of big countries. Qatar is a small country and it's still developing. It was a desert until 1940. They don't have centuries of history to progress their viewpoints. They're growing, and I think giving countries in those regions the World Cup allows them to continue to grow and to progress more since they will feel more connected globally.

Great post @Casciavit. I happen to agree with a lot of it, but take issue with this part below

Casciavit wrote:Now, 1000 people dying from worker conditions is 1000 too high. But I don't live in a utopia. I understand Qatar is a middle eastern country. I also understand that they have a population of 3M, and 2M of those are migrant workers. I also understand that it is one of the hottest countries on earth. When you adjust for population and weather, some of those numbers don't surprise me. I'd love to see comparisons with other countries when you adjust those numbers. Qatar isn't alone in having poor safety protocols and they aren't alone in having poor worker protection rights. Most countries in that region are dealing with the same problem. A Bengali building a stadium in Qatar isn't much different than a Sudani building a stadium in Egypt. They are both immigrants who are working in poor and hot conditions and thus are more likely to die from respiratory factors.

Qatar's migrant workers are often forced to work, taken their documents and freedom of movement away from them, housed in unsanitary conditions, and stolen their wages from. For the ones that get out (which is most) even after returning to their home they often experience kidney failure from years of drinking bad water, for example.

If these were people who were there freely chosen and had the ability to leave whenever they want, then sure we can argue about working conditions in Egypt vs Qatar. But based on what I've read this is not the case, a minimum standard of care for human life has not been met.

You say they have agency, go into it with open eyes, and no longer believe their passports are taken away, but this is not something I've seen reported elsewhere. If it were, I think Qatar would use that front and center as part of their counter-information campaign, and I haven't seen that either. But I'm open to reassess this if presented with good evidence.

But from what I've read, even after the reforms of the kafala system, workers are still being sent there under false promises, are still having their wages stolen, and are still having their documents taken away from them. They often pay a large amount in a 'recruitment fee' based on a promised salary, only to get there and find out they'll earn half as much (with expenses deducted on top of that).

There is also the fact that FIFA knew that Qatar uses this kind of labor, and knew that by giving them the WC they would kick off a construction boom, and knew that it would surely lead to more deaths by 'migrant workers'. And they did it anyway. They were poor stewards of football for the fans they have made us all complicit in it. Honestly I'm not nowhere near as mad with Qatar (who are we to ask it to change it's entire culture? political system?) as I am with FIFA.

Not that this is the first (or last) 'dirty' WC. Mussolini hosted one. Argentina's military junta did. Putin did. All these countries had serious problems at the time. And now there's one more to the list.

Oh I definitely agree that migrant workers do experience what you're saying. When I said agency I meant that they know the risks of what Qatar might be like before they go there. Yet they still go there in thousands each year.

For the migrants to go there they need to be sponsored and on some type of work visa. That requires an entire application process. A lot of the people who go to these jobs already know others who have worked there. Referral culture is very common over there. They know what the scene is like and they know how people can get screwed over. Word absolutely spreads. Please don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

Does that justify the mistreatment? No. However, if someone tells you that there's $1000 in a cave, but to get to it you'll have to fight an alligator, and then you find out 10 people have gone in, 2 didn't come out, 5 came out with some money but got injured, and 3 came out fine with $1000 then the onus is on you to determine whether entering the cave is worth it. You know the risk, and you know the tradeoff.

Passport confiscation is illegal in Qatar. In 2020, they announced migrant workers could leave the country without requiring an exit permit from their sponsor. Those are their laws. Is everyone abiding by them? Perhaps not, but progress is being made. The rule change in 2020 should've had a big impact since that's what the main problem was. Kaladin lives there so maybe he can chime in with if he's seen/heard progress in that regard.

Also if you want to get into the whole sanitary conditions argument, am I really supposed to believe the places they come from are much better? These are people escaping poverty. I'd really be interested to see the kidney failure rate between construction workers who lived their entire life in Bangladesh versus the ones who lived 10 years in Qatar. My hunch tells me there wouldn't be a big difference, so I'd love to see numbers that disprove my assumption.

Otto von Bismarck once said: "The first generation creates wealth, the second generation manages the wealth, the third generation studies art history and the fourth generation degenerates."

We now live in the degenerate era. Substitute "art history" with gender studies for modern times purposes if you will.

German interior minister virtue-signaling a "One Love" armband in the stadium as if homo- and transsexualism is deeply rooted in German culture after allowing gay marriages since ... whooping 2017, all the while the German minister of economy is bowing down to beg for liquid gas in the very same Qatar.



Couldn't make this up. Satirists are out of jobs.

This was Grant Wahl’s last story. https://t.co/MzYoo6rVaS

— Michelle Beadle (@MichelleDBeadle) December 10, 2022

I posted a more "diplomatic" post in the main WC thread, but for this thread....something is very off about Grant Wahl's death. He tweeted about 5 hours ago, during the Argentina-Netherlands match and had been tweeting right up to the PK shootout, then suddenly stopped. He's been extremely vocal about the controversies that have plagued Qatar before and during this tournament. He was even detained 2 weeks ago for wearing a rainbow shirt in support of his brother, who is gay.

I think it was mentioned in a recent podcast episode that he was struggling with some type of respiratory infection, such as bronchitis. If true, that's still a very odd way to die. Bronchitis is not, by itself, often fatal in even its worst cases. Given that his wife works within the Biden Administration, the wheels are already in motion to figure out what happened. This is likely going to become a much bigger story if what his brother is saying is true.

Eagerly awaiting for more details. I listen to his podcast sometimes. Definetly the biggest US soccer writer. I'm shocked.

That being said he's been getting treated at medical centres all week, and said he had bronchitis on his podcast yesterday. He also had covid months ago.

His gay brother is obviously grieving, but immediately jumping to "Qatar authorities poisoned him" could be a stretch. He isn't the only journalist there shitting on Qatar. Going after an American journalist during the end of the World Cup is the most idiotic decision ever. Interested to see further details come out. RIP.

Grant Wahl's brother posted this yesterday.

The family will release a statement as to cause of death soon. I no longer suspect foul play. It was not PE. https://t.co/OKRV6XEvgL

— Eric Wahl (@ziplamak) December 13, 2022

I believe his wife, an epidemiologist within the Biden Administration, indicated that he died of an aortic aneurysm.

Since Wahl's death, A Qatari photojournalist, Khalid Al-Misslam, has also died. His cause of death is unknown.

I haven't exactly made it a secret what I think of Qatar's "culture". There is a semblance of a sense of relief, among profound sadness at Grant's death, that this was purely an unfortunate medical coincidence and not something more insidious. I don't at all blame Eric Wahl for going where he went with this instinctually when this news was first reported though, given the run-ins Grant had with Qatari authorities as well as his outspoken criticism.

El Gunner wrote:his reaction was racism, pure racism

They were champing at the bit for it to be true too.

McLewis wrote:

I haven't exactly made it a secret what I think of Qatar's "culture".

My uncle passed away at the end of last month, so I went offline for a while.

Thanks to Casciavit for the comprehensive comment.

Initially, I was vehemently against Qatar hosting the WC out of purely footballing considerations. However, I am now thankful that it was hosted as it exposes the deep-seated hypocrisy, Arab/Islam phobia, and residual colonial attitudes of the murderous West.

These attitudes, unlike what McLewis says above, were actually hidden in the past. However, now, these countries are ramping up cultural colonialism as their economic situations continue to deteriorate. After fucking up the entire planet for two centuries, they are now preaching to the rest of the world about how to behave.

As someone who works in construction sites in the MENA region, I can confidently tell you that 3rd World Country migrant workers are uniformly poorly treated across the board. It changes and continues to be improved, but is far from ideal. Qatar is no different, but the worst conditions were never related to the WC projects.

One thing worth noting is that these conditions are actually much better than the worker's conditions back in their countries, and better than the sweatshops making your clothes and electronic products.

The reality that the West conveniently ignores is that the entire supply chain is compromised with "human rights" abuses. The only difference between the Migrant workers building Qatar's stadiums (and consequently providing more work opportunities for those migrants than would have ever been offered otherwise) and the locals working in materials for clothing and stuff for the US WC is the degree of separation. In both cases, poorer people will relatively suffer for the benefit of a richer country.

Yet, it should also be noted that this "suffering" is a choice. These people will likely suffer even more without these opportunities.

So its not a situation unique to Qatar or the US, but the entire capitalistic system which has been started, augmented, and spearheaded by the colonial Western powers for centuries. As far as these countries are concerned, they want to come in with their military equipment to bomb us and steal our resources, and they hate it when we don't follow their narrative.

Whether that hate and hypocrisy come from right-wing intolerant POV or left-wing liberal attitudes, it all comes down from an elitist mentality that they know better about culture and moral attitudes, and that they will teach us how to behave.

Again, thanks to Qatar for exposing this behavior in the open, because I was previously fooled by them in the past.

This was on Danish TV @tv2newsdk where hosts jokingly equate #MAR players hugging their mothers after games with monkeys.
“Because they stick together, they also do that during family reunions in Qatar, in #Morocco” whilst holding up photo of monkeys.pic.twitter.com/ZUv7qstBgl

— Nima Tavallaey Roodsari (@NimaTavRood) December 16, 2022

“Come on, racism against Moroccans in Europe can’t be *that* bad!”

One of the leading Dutch newspapers after the Moroccan team made history: pic.twitter.com/8SG0d7U7ff

— Farah-Silvana Kanaan (@farahkanaan) December 15, 2022

Die Bild und die taz hatten auch gute Chancen, aber der Preis für die widerlichste und gefährlichste Hetze geht an die Welt.

Marokko würde „mit Geste des Islamischen Staats“ posieren. Das ist Volksverhetzung und klassische Verschwörungstheorie.

Gehen wir den Unsinn kurz durch. pic.twitter.com/5U3NII8Rqq

— Tarek Baé (@Tarek_Bae) December 12, 2022

Yeah, they are not even hiding it any more.

"Workers are treated like shit in all 3rd world countries so why is Qatar singled out" is a poor argument imo. There was no scandal in Brazil, South Africa or Mexico regarding human rights abuses, there was in Qatar and it's because it is categorically different in its mistreatment.

Materials clothing (specifically the Uighur concentration camps, also compares to slavery) are a matter that did receive plenty of coverage when it came out and had real consequences. Some companies pulled out of the region, others improved their monitoring. I personally have stopped buying at the implicated brands as I don't want to reward that behavior. So I don't think that whataboutism is a fair critique either.

I also have no interest in telling anyone how to behave, I just wish FIFA did not award the world's biggest prize to such a problematic host and made all watchers complicit in these abuses. I am glad there was enough pressure put on to improve conditions on those workers, but don't think it goes far enough and that they should have been in place before the bid was accepted, not only 2 years from the event when most construction was already finished

Those tweets, yikes

At least it's in the open now, wonder if there will be any consequences

Edit: All I could find on the cartoon is that it was removed, no further repercussions

https://netherlands.postsen.com/sports/116861/De-Volkskrant-removes-%E2%80%98stigmatizing%E2%80%99-cartoon-about-Moroccans.html

Lord Spencer wrote:

McLewis wrote:

I haven't exactly made it a secret what I think of Qatar's "culture".

My uncle passed away at the end of last month, so I went offline for a while.

Thanks to Casciavit for the comprehensive comment.

Initially, I was vehemently against Qatar hosting the WC out of purely footballing considerations. However, I am now thankful that it was hosted as it exposes the deep-seated hypocrisy, Arab/Islam phobia, and residual colonial attitudes of the murderous West.

These attitudes, unlike what McLewis says above, were actually hidden in the past. However, now, these countries are ramping up cultural colonialism as their economic situations continue to deteriorate. After fucking up the entire planet for two centuries, they are now preaching to the rest of the world about how to behave.

As someone who works in construction sites in the MENA region, I can confidently tell you that 3rd World Country migrant workers are uniformly poorly treated across the board. It changes and continues to be improved, but is far from ideal. Qatar is no different, but the worst conditions were never related to the WC projects.

One thing worth noting is that these conditions are actually much better than the worker's conditions back in their countries, and better than the sweatshops making your clothes and electronic products.

The reality that the West conveniently ignores is that the entire supply chain is compromised with "human rights" abuses. The only difference between the Migrant workers building Qatar's stadiums (and consequently providing more work opportunities for those migrants than would have ever been offered otherwise) and the locals working in materials for clothing and stuff for the US WC is the degree of separation. In both cases, poorer people will relatively suffer for the benefit of a richer country.

Yet, it should also be noted that this "suffering" is a choice. These people will likely suffer even more without these opportunities.

So its not a situation unique to Qatar or the US, but the entire capitalistic system which has been started, augmented, and spearheaded by the colonial Western powers for centuries. As far as these countries are concerned, they want to come in with their military equipment to bomb us and steal our resources, and they hate it when we don't follow their narrative.

Whether that hate and hypocrisy come from right-wing intolerant POV or left-wing liberal attitudes, it all comes down from an elitist mentality that they know better about culture and moral attitudes, and that they will teach us how to behave.

Again, thanks to Qatar for exposing this behavior in the open, because I was previously fooled by them in the past.

I offer my condolences on your uncle's passing.

Regarding the rest of your post, to say I disagree vehemently would be an understatement. I'm not going to relitigate my stance on this topic as it's well known by now, but what I will say is that Qataris will be welcome to come to the US in 2026 and protest against any of the injustices the US has committed on the geopolitical landscape. That's how true free speech works. That's not elitism, it's liberalism.

I'm going to say this as well. I've stood by my principles this entire tournament. I have not watched a single second of it. I frankly have not ruled out another boycott in 2026. How many, who have so readily lept to Qatar's defense, will do the same in 2026 and beyond, when ANY western country hosts a major international tournament? Will they also be able to put their love of the game to the side in favor of their principles? Or will they watch anyway and admit it was all just empty, defensive posturing?

The world is rife with institutionalized racism and prejudice against certain associations of people, and to see certain posts of once-respected members here commenting on the topic leaves me disappointed and perplexed. It doesn't take much critical thinking to examine the initial reaction at hand and where it stems from, especially in the case of Grant Wahl's death.

I would assume the majority of people here have never visited the country, let alone make certain assumptions.

Regardless, if anything, i am glad that this World Cup has exposed the hypocrisy of Western media and the yellow journalism enacted.

I've done my fair share of arguing on this topic online and have no need to waste further time and effort regurgitating, so this is my last post on the topic.

I went, can I comment? Had a great time, doesn't mean I didn't see the most sexist, racist, xenophobic place I've ever been in.

Went to a lounge to a get a drink the first night. Outside of it a sign that said, among many other things, no qatari women allowed.

Basically everyone you see working anywhere is a south Asian that is trated as a second (or third?) Class citizen. Not allowed to become a national of the country he works and lives in.

We were treated better than local workers, very clearly, and Qatari were treated better than us and than the workers in a shocking way. Not a fan. Everyone should be treated the same regardless of ethnicity or nationality.

I wanted to add some positives because it's not all negative.

I have never felt safer in a city. One of the matches ended at like 1am + time to leave the stadium from Lusail and eat and stuff, we ended up walking at like 3/4 am around the city.

Felt 100% safe, I think me and everyone else. The cleanest and safest place I've been to.

I also want to give a shout to the workers that came in for the WC logistics. Not only were they really helpful at all times, they had an amazing mood. We talked to a lot of them. A takeaway from this trip is that should go to Kenya, where lots of them were from. The friendliest people. Tied with Argentines for making our trip that much better with their mood.

Despite my criticisms of the Emirati states that is definitely one of the highlights. It's extremely safe, well governed, conditioned and very family oriented from the architecture itself catering to family atmospheres and bonding.

The west typical is critical and ignorantly so of the eastern part of the world including eastern europe but purely out of ignorance and what they are trained to believe.

UAE is incredibly clean and safe. You could leave your key in your ferrari and would not have to fear for it being stolen.

Stark contrast to a rotting shithole in the United states where the constant fear has had people just high-strung and neurotic.

Glad you enjoyed yourself Rincon shame you didn't get to see Italy for it though

Kaladin wrote:The world is rife with institutionalized racism and prejudice against certain associations of people, and to see certain posts of once-respected members here commenting on the topic leaves me disappointed and perplexed. It doesn't take much critical thinking to examine the initial reaction at hand and where it stems from, especially in the case of Grant Wahl's death.

I would assume the majority of people here have never visited the country, let alone make certain assumptions.

Regardless, if anything, i am glad that this World Cup has exposed the hypocrisy of Western media and the yellow journalism enacted.

I've done my fair share of arguing on this topic online and have no need to waste further time and effort regurgitating, so this is my last post on the topic.

It's simpler than that. The people critical of such lands and all quite simply never have been to them.

A lot of Brits to Americans have not even traveled out of their own country.

When do you see well-traveled people making the same statements? Never. Just doesn't happen.

Well at least one of you have finally called me out by name. I was starting to think I was Voldemort or something.

What should I do better at, pray tell? What have I missed regarding this topic?

Lol to clear it up I did not follow the debate above but mostly responded to Kaladin and Rincon with no previous knowledge of what's been said above.

Have my qualms with how UAE has been built and to what cost but what has been said in its favour is undeniable.