Re: Sack Zidane thread

[guest7]

Can we all just agree on that this team needs a rejuvenation?

[Mr Nick09]

the other was really really good when it started,

Never have I been so dissapointed at a Madrid side. Seriously, a non-kneejerk thread imo. Zidane is the most boring coach we've had in a long time. Even Ancelotti and Mourinho played better football (for all the shit Mourinho gets, he played some amazing counter attacking football)

Our shit strategy is to cross balls and to hope that something happens, which is boring and shitty. Our midfield struggles every time, we look really sloppy and our midfield can not connect with our offense despite having the best midfield in the world. (in my humble opinion, our midfield isn't really lacking anything but proper coaching) We mostly score by headers and set pieces, rather than open field goals.

And his subs... man his subs... I don't think I need to explain myself.

We have issues with our defense, we let by some stupid goals, we could definitely improve in the defense area. We make plenty mistakes here.

But to be fair, his motivating seems top notch and it's not that he doesn't seem good (his winning ratio speaks for itself) I just don't think he is suited for Madrid. EPL seems to be his place

@Nick

I've been learning about the concept for about two years now. It has given me another outlook on football and massively improved my general and tactical knowledge. If you are ever free sometime, I wouldn't mind discussing some of the finer nuances of the idea.

Regarding Z, I think it was you (I'm not sure), but when he was hired I translated a spielverlagerung article that analyzed some of his games in Castilla and the author complained that his side lacked connections due to the poor off the ball movement and that the Castilla players lacked ideas on the ball. He said this was either down to the players not being good enough or Zidane's failing to properly show what he wants from them.

Judging by this thread and some of the others in the Madrid section, it seems like the latter is the problem.

I think you are missing the point completely. This is not just about Modric and Kroos not running behind defenders or hitting the box, it is part of the problem of the non existent positional play. It is not the problem.

The lack of proper ball movement when we have the ball, starting from the back is the problem. Our ball movement is inefficient and fails to take advantage of numerical superiority all over the pitch not just in midfield. To move the ball players have to be free to receive the ball and take up proper positions on the pitch which we lack.

Positional football isn't about Pep Guardiola if anyone thinks that way. Even defensive and counter attacking teams can bring positional football to their game which improves their football multiple times. I think we are missing out on a footballing revolution frankly.

Relying on individual brilliance is depending on luck, it can't be a game plan, it can only be a get out of jail free card in certain situations but never as a game plan. We use it as game plan which is why we are always expecting Ronaldo to bail out or Ramos to score that header.

some snippets

[sportsczy]

how many points were madrid behind under benitez at this stage 2 years ago?

Benitez left the Bernabeu with the club third in La Liga, four points behind leaders Atlético Madrid and half that amount behind Barcelona.

Now, we're fourth in the league, 14 points behind leaders Barcelona and Z is still in charge.

Maybe because he's won 2 CLs, 1 La Liga, etc. in 2 years time and he's built some equity as opposed to crashing and burning from minute 1 like Benitez?

Don't be sheep dude.

[Doc]

Yeah, Rafa and Zidane have 2 very distinct positions. While both received a battering from Barcelona, Rafa had nothing to work with. Zidane has 2 UCL titles and a La Liga crown. Enough equity, as Sports put it, to survive the season unless it gets completely worse.

Banks should know this but it's his way of poking fun at Zidane and Madrid. 4/10 banter but would allow it.

[The Demon of Carthage]

how many points were madrid behind under benitez at this stage 2 years ago?

Benitez left the Bernabeu with the club third in La Liga, four points behind leaders Atlético Madrid and half that amount behind Barcelona.

Now, we're fourth in the league, 14 points behind leaders Barcelona and Z is still in charge.

Maybe because he's won 2 CLs, 1 La Liga, etc. in 2 years time and he's built some equity as opposed to crashing and burning from minute 1 like Benitez?

It's a little more than that. The trophies have, in fact, bought him more time. However, his close relationship with Florentino is the main reason why he's still managing Madrid.

I mean, no other manager would've gotten away with such an unprecedented level of suckage under Florentino's reign: Fourth in the league with a 14-point gap, a humiliation at home to arch-rival Barcelona and a humiliation away to Spurs.

Managers were fired for far less by Florentino.

[guest7]

I love how people says the main reason why Flo hasn't fired Zidane here is because of his close relationship with Florentino Perez.

It's like you guys have proof of Florentino spending christmas with Zidane's family. Like they have that kind of close relationship

On top of that, you assume Zidane's power is with the locker room, yet none of you personally knows anything about that! For all we know the team might hate his guts, they just won't speak about it!

[VanDeezNuts]

No manager has had as much success as Zidane in this flo era, and going back to the first stint only VDB had that level of success and he had twice the time.

[The Demon of Carthage]

I love how people says the main reason why Flo hasn't fired Zidane here is because of his close relationship with Florentino Perez.

It's like you guys have proof of Florentino spending christmas with Zidane's family. Like they have that kind of close relationship

On top of that, you assume Zidane's power is with the locker room, yet none of you personally knows anything about that! For all we know the team might hate his guts, they just won't speak about it!

I would argue with you, but since you have a reputation of changing positions every time you sneeze and tend to make the biggest U-turns in the history of GL, I really don't think it would be fruitful for me or you to even waste a second on this. Have a nice day.

[VanDeezNuts]

Yeah I’m with guest, he may have a close relationship with Perez but all Perez cares about is money, and results. Perez and Mourinho has a tenuous relationship, but he still was around for 3 years. Definitely a year extended beyond his welcome.

[Mr Nick09]

are you sure? because i am pretty sure that Perez's love for Benzema is the only thing that kept him in Madrid for these past couple of years.

Perez is not that different than other people, he also falls for personal relationship, and it's well known how much he loves benzema. he has been the most controversial player in madrid these past 10 years, and should have been replaced by Suarez few years back, and Mbappe recently.

I also think Zidane puts his personal relationship with Karim, ahead of everything else, and continues to play him no matter what or how he performs.

Imagine, a madrid CF scoring 2 goals in half a season? absolute disgrace and he is still undisputed as a starter. it's a joke

[Bankz]

wasn't del bosque fired for far less, I mean madrid played probably the best attacking football as at 2003 along with arsenal (yeah, shitty defence I know) winning the CL in 02 and just immediately after, winning the league in 2003?

Even at that del bosque was thrice the coach, manager and tactician zizou could ever hope to be, and had top level trophies to back it up yet didn't survive even a few hours after winning the league? and that was even with an ageing squad. in that case, why is zidane still here if not for close ties with Perez? and yes, even DB still had the excuse (the one people give for zidane) of an ageing squad too (a 40% capacity R9, a washed up zidane, a finished hierro, a mediocre helguera, a finished Salgado, a past it carlos, an ageing figo, an inexperienced casillas etc but still managed to play the most eye catching football on planet at the time. still beats me till this day tbh. That was even after winning the most dramatic la Liga in ages (albeit due to some R9 heroic), wrestling the title of real sociedad in the last day of the season after being 9 points behind at one point, yet was still sacked. smh

[futbol_bill]

You don’t to need to look any further back than the last coach if you’re wondering what Flo will do.

Carlo got us the big trophy we had been after for years, was loved by all his players and supposedly had support from Flo. But to follow up that success with insisting on a set lineup and using only 12 or 13 players and no achievements, results in not meeting your accountabilities (winning trophies) and therefore dismissal.

The writing is very clearly marked on the wall.

[Mr Nick09]

by the way, Ancelotti won la Decima, which is in my opinion a more significant achievement than what Zidane did, and he was sacked the next season for winning nothing.

[The Demon of Carthage]

Yeah I’m with guest, he may have a close relationship with Perez but all Perez cares about is money, and results. Perez and Mourinho has a tenuous relationship, but he still was around for 3 years. Definitely a year extended beyond his welcome.

I disagree, respectfully of course.

Florentino used to make it his life mission to buy big-profile players every single summer. He even did it right after Carlo had won him the double.

Then Z arrives and all of a sudden he changes beyond recognition, refraining from making any significant changes to the squad for two straight years. It's clear that he listens to Z and tries his utter best to make the latter's wishes come true.

Now, will he keep him in the hot seat even if Z keeps on dropping points and, God forbid, gets knocked out of the CL? I don't think so, but I think he'll be more patient with him than any other manager he had under his reign. That's partly because Z has won him a lot of trophies, but also, and more importantly, he's his protege. In that I mean, I don't think he has full control over everything, but he has been given enough power to comfortably execute his ideas to perfection.

Now, maybe Real Madrid failed to sign Mbappé because they were outbid by PSG. But I refuse to believe that Z did in fact ask for a decent CF and got flat out rejected by Florentino. He would've gotten a decent one had he asked for him.

This is one of the many reasons I'm currently very, very upset at him. There are some mistakes that he had absolutely nothing to do with and thus, shouldn't be held responsible for, and there are others that are directly linked to him and his indifference to the squad's glaring needs.

[titosantill]

@bankz, at the time, majority (or many people, let me not say majority) didn't give a rats ass that vdb was fired. many people will obviously deny it now, whether fans, pundits and so on. but a large chunk of people didn't care until the 05 season that bosque was fired. when in 05 the team was flopping and hiring and firing managers in the middle of the season, everybody became a "genius" and started crying why did the fire vdb?

beckham signing was a huge coup, beckham signing when laporta used him as the campaign promise for his election was a bigger coup, signing the assistant coach of ferguson, who knew beckham very well and being portuguese, knew figo, so he'd be able to manage both right wingers was a huge move.

history has been kind to vdb. at the time he was known as the care taker who all the players liked, and the perception was that anybody's grandma could  manage that madrid. vdb wasn't seen as a tactician of any sort, more of a father figure, who inserted any new galactico into the line up once they came. and it caused friction with him and morientes. i was among those who didn't care that he was fired, for me it made perfect sense, and flo could do NO wrong in my eyes @ the time. damn it the guy gave us figo

[Doc]

Flo gave us Figo. I don't know if some of us are old enough to remember (or remember in general) how much Figo was loved by the Blaugrana but I remember Barca men much older than me talking about Figo like Barcelona fans do now with the likes of Ini and Busquets. So I'm sure it was like that with Barca fans in Europe/Barcelona as well. He was really loved. He was their talisman (or one of) and hell of a winger. Man, side note, I wish Lucas could just transform into Figo over night. Please.

Anyway, so yeah, Flo performing the biggest coup (to me) in the transfer window in the 21st century made him do no wrong and like Tito, Don Vicente getting fired was pretty much a "meh" moment. Hindsight showed it was an unbelievable stupid thing to do but the circumstances at the time, it seem pretty normal.

[Doc]

Anyway, giving Banks a 6/10 banter rating now. Not bad...

[Cyborg]

Zidane is so delusional, he isn't going to do anything differently.

Marcelo should be dropped.

Benzema should  be dropped

Casemiro should be dropped

This is one reason why I liked mourinho, if you're not performing he will drop you.

[titosantill]

ancelotti was fired for less, but i didn't like the sacking; my issue has always been, if the manager has the locker room support, sacking is an extremely gutsy move. players are not robots, they're not automatically going to gel with the new manager especially if they liked the old one. rafa replacement wasn't well thought out at all, he never even seemed like someone flo would like. same goes for when we fired rafa, zidane was a rushed move, but somehow someway he made it work. it doesn't mean that will always be the case. it's only worked with him and vdb, and both were known more for their laissez faire/positive rapport with players than tactics

if the club wants to make a move, then it should be well thought out, and not something where come this time next season we're talking about firing the current incumbent, we've made a lot of managers rich just from the settlement we give them once terminating the contract

we were foolish and overconfident this summer, and that to me is the primary reason for our situation. signing all these young spanish players who are gods at mallorca et al but can't cut it week in week out or can't sway the manager's confidence isn't helping. we are not a club that has time for talent development, also zidane's biggest issue is keeping undying faith in the old guard, if he understands he needs to do away with this and has a good list of potential transfer suggestions, fine. i'm not quick on the trigger when it comes to the sack, i'm for cooler heads and calm.

if, however, he really does in his heart of hearts believe benzema is the second coming of pele, and bale will always be fit, then its goodbye.....

[titosantill]

@cyborg, its about finding the right balance/middle ground. zidane needs to move away from that passiveness. mourinho is another extreme, yes he'll drop you but he can alienate the whole squad while doing so. there should be a fine middle ground. its hard for benzema to be dropped cos of the ditch we put ourselves in by having almighty mayoral as his back up....that was a very foolish idea from zidane/flo/whoever was responsible for that. i'd obviously sway more to zizou than mou, i sway to whoever's teams brought us silverware

and that team that won la liga under mou i felt was probably our best madrid side, but he destroyed that team with unnecessary quarrels the following year

[sportsczy]

I'll say this again... we are CR centric side on the attack, a Modric dependent midfield since none of the other 2 can dribble worth lick... and Ramos/Marcelo represent half our defense.

All these guys are having poor years by their standards... horrible in fact for CR.

We haven't changed tactics, personnel, nothing... you can't blame the manager for players who have been together since forever suddenly not playing well in a system they know well and a manager that is familiar.

When all the variables you can excuse for players aren't there... you eventually have to blame the players. To me, more than anything, a lot of our players have let us down. You can blame age and other things... but it's still the players.

And given these guys are the superstars of the team... how do you bench them? You can't really without losing the whole locker room.

That's why I say it's the end of a cycle. Too many key guys over 30. It doesn't work in football. Barca survived it for a couple of years because Messi was in his absolute prime and then Neymar joined him. We don't have transcendent players in their prime to cover up squad shortcomings.

[Cyborg]

I'm a fan of zidane as well, but I'm not blind to his failures as a coach and manager.

He has failed this season to manage this team. Constantly defending struggling players. You have to back your players but not to your detriment and that of the team.

He has fit players young hungry players, yet he will play someone who just returned from injury a few days ago.

He has failed this season so far. The only thing that can save him and this team is if he takes his head out of the sand and comes into some sort of sanit and realizes that what he thinks is working is not.

Madrid are 4th in the league! And at this rate we're looking at champions league qualifier games.

Psg are going to embarrassingly tear this side apart.

[futbol_bill]

This season is certainly going to end up trophyless.

The blame for this lies squarely on Zidane.

1.Beginning with his letting Morata go and no replacement.

2 next is his insistence on playing Benzema. There isn’t anyone bar Chad and Turok that can’t see how poor this guyis, yet Zidane insists on playing him.

3. His lack of viable tactics have been well documented.

4. His ignoring his bench strength is incomprehensible. Most are very highly rated youth and when called upon most have delivered. Sure there have been some inexperience showing and some nervousness, but generally they have done the job and to have a coach that last year played his entire squad, this ignoring them is hard to comprehend.

5. What you can’t blame Zidane for is Ronaldo’s deterioration and Bale’s fragility. But you can fault him for not inserting alteratives into the lineup in place of these two at least some of the time.

Biggest issues are Benzema in lineup and the ineffective front line. Without goals and effective movement of front line, the entire pressure of game shifts to defense and midfield exposing the slightest of flaws. We are not losing games because of defense, we are losing because we can’t score.

Bottom line is Zidane has to go. We need entire front line replaced.

So it’s time to think of who to go after in terms of coach and forwards.

And no Nick, Lopetegui is not available. We need him on seleccion!

[Doc]

Madrid are 4th in the league! And at this rate we're looking at champions league qualifier games.

I think this is not being addressed as it should. Madrid is 4th...in La Liga. We are a top 2 team and 4th at the half of the campaign. Fking Valencia is above us. Managers have been fired for less, way less. Zidane needs to up his game, whatever it maybe.

[guest7]

Man I swear I blame this on Flo ffs, why isn't he insisting on buying players, acting so *bleep* passive for some reason

[futbol_bill]

Because he listens to Zidane, who says he is happy with squad!

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