Dual Citizenship & Conflict of Interest- Should we get rid ?

An interesting notion. I am a dual citizen myself...

but it appears in some very important cases, dual citizens can't make decisions compromising one of their home countries. Interestingly for example:

Over 65% of Turks who live in Germany (a liberal democracy) voted in favour of Erdogan in the Turkish referendum, changing the system from parliamentary to presidential, and hence a lot more authoritarian. These people don't live in Turkey to deal with day-2-day consequences of their vote.

Same issue with a lot of Israeli-American "think-tanks" on foreign policy.....who advocate America to go into wars/adventures that benefits Israel First, as opposed to America and it's America' soldiers who die.

And a lot other examples around the world....


Do you think Dual citizenship has allowed some snakes to take advantage and be decisive in votes/decisions that don't directly affect themselves, yet plays a huge role in adversely affecting lives of others ? How can we fix this issue of conflict of interest if dual-citizenship remains ?

Natalie Portman wrote:An interesting notion. I am a dual citizen myself...

but it appears in some very important cases, dual citizens can't make decisions compromising one of their home countries. Interestingly for example:

Over 65% of Turks who live in Germany (a liberal democracy) voted in favour of Erdogan in the Turkish referendum, changing the system from parliamentary to presidential, and hence a lot more authoritarian.  These people don't live in Turkey to deal with day-2-day consequences of their vote.

Same issue with a lot of Israeli-American "think-tanks" on foreign policy.....who advocate America to go into wars/adventures that benefits Israel First, as opposed to America and it's America' soldiers who die.

And a lot other examples around the world....


Do you think Dual citizenship has allowed some snakes to take advantage and be decisive in votes/decisions that don't directly affect themselves, yet plays a huge role in adversely affecting lives of others ? How can we fix this issue of conflict of interest if dual-citizenship remains ?

Correction: 65 % of those who went to vote. Not 65 % of the Turkish population.

There are 3 million people of Turkish heritage in Germany.
1.5 million have Turkish citizenship.
50 % of the 1.5 million, so 750.000, went to vote.
63 % of those 750.000 votes "yes".
So 470.000 out of 3 millionen votes "yes" (obviously not all of them have dual citizenship), which is 15 % of the people of Turkish origin in Germany. 85 % either voted "no" or didn't vote because they gave up their Turkish passport or simply don't care about Turkey anymore.

^ Yea, 65% of people who actually bothered to vote...who are clearly dual citizens. The ones who don't have Turkish passport don't count, because they aren't Turkish anymore (hence the point of the thread, they ain't dual-citizens, so their loyalty is 100% with Germany. or at least you'd hope it is)

Very similar percentage in Netherlands...the same ones who were waving Turkish flags and chanting against the  Dutch the week before the Dutch election. Ditto with Austria and France.

Full map, the percentage of Turks (who were eligible and went to voted) who voted YES in other countries were like this:

But they aren't clearly dual citizens. Not everyone of the 1.5 million Turkish citizens also have German citizenship. At least 280.000 have only limited residence permit for example.

Pedram wrote:I think you should take this in consideration that Germany turks are generally more conservative and pro-AKP than other Turkish diasporas.

These Turks from Holland-Belgium-Germany always vote for left parties in those European countries but when it comes to Turkey, they end up voting for dictatorship.

IF they are dual-citizens, or if they only have Turkish citizenship, but on a PR visa in Europe with prospect of getting a second citizenship, I'd personally ask them to choose.

There is no problem with voting left or right....but if you vote left in Germany/Netherlands/Belgium, and Right in your native land...then I know your intentions aren't right and you may have a secret agenda.

This Turk/Israel thing is just an example.....applies to all similar sort of inconsistency/conflict of interest with dual-citizens

Natalie Portman wrote:
There is no problem with voting left or right....but if you vote left in Germany/Netherlands/Belgium, and Right in your native land...then I know your intentions aren't right and you may have a secret agenda.

This Turk/Israel thing is just an example.....applies to all similar sort of inconsistency/conflict of interest with dual-citizens

None of these are inconsistencies or conflict of interests. You are jumping to too many conclusions.

Countries are different and need different approaches. What works in one place may not work in another. Besides, labels like left or right are just shallow ways of grouping politicians up.

A right wing politician in Turkey might be completely different than a right wing politician in the Netherlands. So an educated voter might have a closer look at the person and party he/she is voting for instead of just jumping to either extreme.

Then you also have to weight the other options, maybe you dislike one politician on the right so much that you vote left because even though you may be a right winger, you think this way would be the less awful.

The local needs, the politician themselves, the opposition, etc. These things and more come into play, there doesn't need to be any inconsistency or conflict of interest for a person to vote for different political pseudo-ideologies across different arts of the world.

Natalie Portman wrote:^ Yea, 65% of people who actually bothered to vote...who are clearly dual citizens.

What?
Numbers from 2011 showed that there were about 500k people with both the turkish and german citizenship and about 1.5m people with only the turkish citizenship in Germany.
Actually just saw that other sources quote 1.5m people with a turkish citizenship and 500k of them with dual citizenship.. would have to read up in the 2011 Zenus to be sure but anyway - clearly the group without a german passport is bigger than the one with both.

rincon wrote:

Natalie Portman wrote:
There is no problem with voting left or right....but if you vote left in Germany/Netherlands/Belgium, and Right in your native land...then I know your intentions aren't right and you may have a secret agenda.

This Turk/Israel thing is just an example.....applies to all similar sort of inconsistency/conflict of interest with dual-citizens

None of these are inconsistencies or conflict of interests. You are jumping to too many conclusions.

Countries are different and need different approaches. What works in one place may not work in another. Besides, labels like left or right are just shallow ways of grouping politicians up.

A right wing politician in Turkey might be completely different than a right wing politician in the Netherlands. So an educated voter might have a closer look at the person and party he/she is voting for instead of just jumping to either extreme.

Then you also have to weight the other options, maybe you dislike one politician on the right so much that you vote left because even though you may be a right winger, you think this way would be the less awful.

The local needs, the politician themselves, the opposition, etc. These things and more come into play, there doesn't need to be any inconsistency or conflict of interest for a person to vote for different political pseudo-ideologies across different arts of the world.

In my humble opinion, your core values shouldn't differ based on where you live.

If you are pro multiculturalism, you should be pro it be it you live in Sweden or UAE.

If you are anti-abortion, you should be anti-abortion be you live in US or Tajikistan.

If you are pro populance gun ownership, you shall support it whether you live in Namibia or Uruguay.

etc...

I do get your point though....the left in a middle eastern country, is still significantly more right than the right in any European country....

but my point is solely for DUAL CITIZENS (I guess I didn't word it correctly in OP)...not if you have residence, only if you have DUAL citizenship...meaning commitment to two or more countries.

I find it funny if an Iraqi goes to Stockholm to a "Refugees welcome" rally under the rainbow, yet when he goes back to his hometown in Arbil he mouths off Kurds and spits on a gay person. THAT, to me, is unacceptable.

You should be able to have dual Citizenship imo. But you should only be able to vote if you've lived there or plan to live there in the near future.

I think the solution is to merely change the rules on foreign voting, not get rid of dual-citizenship altogether.

For instance, in spite of having a British citizenship I can't vote in the upcoming elections, because I am not a resident. As a dual citizen with Italy however, they did allow me to vote on their recent referendum.

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Natalie Portman wrote:

rincon wrote:

Natalie Portman wrote:
There is no problem with voting left or right....but if you vote left in Germany/Netherlands/Belgium, and Right in your native land...then I know your intentions aren't right and you may have a secret agenda.

This Turk/Israel thing is just an example.....applies to all similar sort of inconsistency/conflict of interest with dual-citizens

None of these are inconsistencies or conflict of interests. You are jumping to too many conclusions.

Countries are different and need different approaches. What works in one place may not work in another. Besides, labels like left or right are just shallow ways of grouping politicians up.

A right wing politician in Turkey might be completely different than a right wing politician in the Netherlands. So an educated voter might have a closer look at the person and party he/she is voting for instead of just jumping to either extreme.

Then you also have to weight the other options, maybe you dislike one politician on the right so much that you vote left because even though you may be a right winger, you think this way would be the less awful.

The local needs, the politician themselves, the opposition, etc. These things and more come into play, there doesn't need to be any inconsistency or conflict of interest for a person to vote for different political pseudo-ideologies across different arts of the world.

In my humble opinion, your core values shouldn't differ based on where you live.

If you are pro multiculturalism, you should be pro it be it you live in Sweden or UAE.

If you are anti-abortion, you should be anti-abortion be you live in US or Tajikistan.

If you are pro populance gun ownership, you shall support it whether you live in Namibia or Uruguay.

etc...

I do get your point though....the left in a middle eastern country, is still significantly more right than the right in any European country....

but my point is solely for DUAL CITIZENS (I guess I didn't word it correctly in OP)...not if you have residence, only if you have DUAL citizenship...meaning commitment to two or more countries.

I find it funny if an Iraqi goes to Stockholm to a "Refugees welcome" rally under the rainbow, yet when he goes back to his hometown in Arbil he mouths off Kurds and spits on a gay person. THAT, to me, is unacceptable.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, most policy decisions are not about something as shallow as gun ownership. It doesn't have to do you changing your core values. My core values are that I 100% want whats best for both my countries of citizenship and my country of residence (which are all different). Voting for someone because it says "left" or "right" can lead to much more of a conflict of interest when you look at it across different countries.

I live in Belgium and the needs here are absolutely different than they are in Venezuela. There is almost no overlap in terms of right or left. When you analyze the situation at these places, see their needs, read the politics of the parties, then you can make a decision and they need not overlap.

At the moment no one in Venezuela could give 2 shits about immigration while this is a key topic in Belgium. Nobody here has to worry about rampant crime and corruption to the scale that people in Caracas do. While 1 country needs delicate economic policies to negotiate trade deals another needs a heavy handed reform of the basics of government and society.

You can do same with Italy (my other country of citizenship). That's a third situation that's not overly similar to either but lies in between. Neither the Belgian bureaucracy nor the Venezuelan disregard for protocol would fit.

If you apply 1 same set of policy to all you will fail and it would be a disaster to one or more of these countries.

Betty La Fea wrote:I have yet to actually meet a person with dual citizenship that actually holds both nations interest at the same rate honestly. You always default to one place you feel more at home with. Its like serving two masters....cant really be done.

My grandpa always told me one thing as a kid. You have one mom, one wife, and one country. Thats loyalty.

You have a mom but do you also have a father? should you be loyal to just one?

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If I am asked who are am I the son of, my mother or father, the answer is both. I am not more the son of either.

You guys are just projecting your views on everyone else. Are there people more inclined to one of their citizenships? yes. Does this mean that they must not have the best interests of both of them at heart? no. Are there people equally inclined to both? yes. Simple as that

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Betty La Fea wrote:

rincon wrote:If I am asked who are am I the son of, my mother or father, the answer is both. I am not more the son of either.

You guys are just projecting your views on everyone else. Are there people more inclined to one of their citizenships? yes. Does this mean that they must not have the best interests of both of them at heart? no. Are there people equally inclined to both? yes. Simple as that

If Belgium bombed Venezuela tomorrow where would your loyalties lie?

What kind of question is this?

Pilling up the ridiculous metaphors/hypotheticals after the mom/dad one.

Just to humor you:
1) I am not a Belgian citizen, not that it really matters.
2) Why did they bomb Venezuela? it could absolutely be that Belgium are right, since we are playing hypotheticals, in which case Belgium. Is Belgium wrong to do it? then Venezuela.

Blind loyalty to anything or anyone is straight up retarded.

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We should definitely get rid of Dual citizenship if the people coming think its ok to choke and "Slap around" women in the nations which have let them in.

Thats worse than letting in terrorists.

Pedram wrote:Let it go dude, this obsession with Sepi is unhealthy.

You wouldnt let it go if he told you to go back to ____


And it isnt even that in the end. If I let it go it spits in the face of everybody in my family who has worked and contributed to make America what it is today. So No, I won't let it go.

Betty La Fea wrote:

Pedram wrote:Let it go dude, this obsession with Sepi is unhealthy.

You wouldnt let it go if he told you to go back to ____


And it isnt even that in the end. If I let it go it spits in the face of everybody in my family who has worked and contributed to make America what it is today. So No, I won't let it go.

honest question what did your family do to make America great. did your family just do what millions of other people do in America or would America not be great without your family.