It all took a backward penal code and a shameless, bigoted neighbor to create a tragedy out of thin air.

A couple days ago, a 19-year-old boy died after falling out of the window of a sixth-floor apartment in El-Menzeh 7, Tunis. The reason behind this tragedy is going to make you laugh and cry at the same time, and believe me, it could very well be a script for a Hollywood movie.

Apparently, his friend didn't want him to stay outside in the blistering heat as she was getting ready, so she invited him over. Unfortunately, she forgot to remove the keys from the door when they entered the apartment.  A woman living in the same building then discovered the keys, locked them inside and contacted the police.

She then begun threatening them from the other side of the door and telling them that it was just a matter of minutes before the police arrived. The kid fearing for his female friend's future (if a man and a woman outside of wedlock are found alone in an apartment or any other secluded place, they both get jailed for one year in Tunisia) decided to leave the apartment from the window, consequently, falling to his death.

It has now been confirmed by both his uncle and her father that they were not a couple, that they were just best friends, that both of their families knew about them hanging out, and that they never slept together.

The kid was 19 years of age, had just graduated from high school and was excited about going to college. According to the reports and testimonies from his teachers and friends, he was a shy boy, brilliant (graduated first of his class) and him and the girl were just best friends nothing more.

But wait, there's more! His mother and sister died a few years ago in an accident and he lived alone with his father. I can't even begin to imagine how his father must be feeling right now. His wife is dead, his daughter is dead and now his son is dead for a ridiculous non-crime that he didn't even commit. Doesn't this sound like a Hollywoodean movie?

The society I live in is infested with hypocrites and judgmental bigots. The woman who called the cops on them is so narrow-minded and perverted that she can't even fathom the simple fact that two people from the opposite sex can be alone together without having sex or even thinking about it. That men and women can be best friends. She just assumed they were doing it because she's a sexually frustrated, envious, ignorant simpleton. And the funny part is, the people who claim virtues are the same very people who do all those things in private. Their hypocrisy has no limits.

And even if they wanted to sleep together, Who the f does she think she is to allow herself to interfere into their affairs? Why does everybody in Tunisia want to play God? How dumb and selfish do you have to be to force your children to have the same lifestyle you were forced to have as a kid, without hobbies, without fun, without living? Is this what the elders want for us in Tunisia? To breed generations of sexually frustrated, emotionally suffocated kids? Then you wonder why some of them get radicalized and join ISIS?

Why can't we just live and let live? Why can't we just let our children live, breathe and express themselves without crippling them emotionally through outdated, failed tactics? This obsession of meddling into other people's lives is the definition of a mentally deranged sociopath.

You know, even though I'm a Muslim, I now think Islam is not for everybody. If you're not intellectually capable of "updating" Islam to this day and age, if you're unable to understand that you're not god and therefore you can't judge anybody, if you can't respect people from different cultures, religions and race and countries, you should either die or live in a cave because society is not meant for you.

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of this retrograde society I live in, and I think the younger generations must get out of their slumber and make radical changes to our constitution, beginning by separating religion from the state and making Tunisia a secular country. Enough is enough, the young people must take the wheel in this country, and the old, bigoted ones must step aside.

That young kid didn't die because he slipped and fell, he died because of a nosy, mentally deranged woman and a laughable penal code.

DoC. Since we're neighbors I completely get you. But the young do think differently. I have a lot of friends my age in tlemcen and Oran, and they think very liberally and modern.

It's really sad but baby steps and we will make it. Look at Morocco, they're doing much better nowadays, they have a lovely night life and so does downtown Oran. It has to be done gradually

The younger generations do think differently, that's why I said that they should lay hold of the government and take control of their way of life. Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

It doesn't matter if the people are liberal when they're living in a bigoted regime because the government will keep on shouldering against the constitution to suppress its people. So the law must be changed accordingly.

I mean, imprisoning two people for one year because they happen to be alone in an apartment and out of wedlock? What is this, the stone age?! What's this obsessive compulsion of controlling people, interfering in their affairs and telling them how to live their lives? Only third-world countries seem to be still suffering from this sickening problem.

The penal code must change. Tunisia must become a secular country and grant its citizens all the fundamental human rights and freedoms any modern society is built upon.

And while we're at it, let's give science a go, instead of lingering on ridiculous issues like who's Muslim and who's not, and who's sleeping with whom, and blaming the west for every single problem we've got.

Jesus. I would be the most aggressive bitter asshole around if I lived in those backwards ass circumstances.

I'd look at moving in all honesty if possible. That's a pathetic story.

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Jesus. I would be the most aggressive bitter asshole around if I lived in those backwards ass circumstances.

I'd look at moving in all honesty if possible. That's a pathetic story.

Now you know why many young kids are joining ISIS. And believe me, this is just one reason, and unfortunately,  there are countless others.

The government is suffocating its people with a tight grip and slowly but steadily forcing people to take drastic measures to flee this hell; to either move out (legally or illegally) or join ISIS.

And the interesting part, Tom, you wouldn't notice all this as a tourist, because the government always makes sure to successfully dupe tourists into believing it's a multi-cultural, liberal state.

The Tunisians, most of them at least, are very liberal and desire nothing more than to take their rightful place on the global stage. But the law, even after the revolution, still hasn't been brought up to date yet to go in the same wavelength as its people.

I mean, sure, the revolution brought some positives, like:

1. Clean elections.
2. Equal pay for men and women.
3. No more censorship.
4. Now you can criticize and even make fun of the president, the government and politicians.
5. Violence against women is strictly forbidden, and catcalling has become illegal.

But then when you think you have finally established democracy, something like this happens and makes you realize it was just an illusion.

Imprisoning a man and a woman because they're not married and are alone in an apartment?! Jesus, it's like they're doing their utmost best to radicalize the people.

And there's a portion of the Tunisian people that really makes me seethe with anger: the hypocrites. Those who think they can judge of everybody but nobody can judge them. They do all the "sins" in the book privately, but act like saints in public. God, I hate those people!

Like, I'm not gay, I never had a sip of alcohol in my life, never smoked cig or pot; but I have no problems with people doing all those things. Who the f am I to judge them? It's a matter of choice dammit, live and let people live. These uptight assholes are ruining it for everybody and giving us a bad rep.

I get you man, it's pathetic that these 'rules' are still in play in the modern world. That's why it's best to cut ties and move imo. Obviously easier said than done when you factor in family, friends, work etc but I'd definitely consider it.

Problems deeply rooted in to a Country can and probably will take decades upon decades to really 'fix' however you have to do what's best for you. And we humans aren't blessed with such a long life span to wait around forever.

I would move, but I don't want to come to Unique's country, steal his job and force him to become Muslim

Unique, if you're reading this, I'm just kidding man

A friend of mine from Florida has just told me that over there there's a law that forbids men and women out of wedlock from cohabiting. Although she also pointed out that it's written but not enforced.

If this is true, if this is truly happening in Florida, in the land of the free, then the change I'm hoping Tunisia to undertake won't happen in my lifetime.

It will. People are tired of our governments shit and its up to us to fix it. You just have to believe. In Algeria during the Arab Spring people were tear gassed and watercannoned in the name of keeping the regime. I have an uncle who's a general. He says the Military control everything and are pocketing all the money that the people deserve.

Revolution or mass education is the only way to do it. Like I said, Morocco are doing it, no reason why we can't. If we can't do it like that I just hope we don't go into a massive civil war like Syria. It would be nice to have the west interviene and help us for a change, but that's not gonna happen.

We don't have a sense of identity. We aren't Arabs. We are amazigh and North Africans yet we get grouped with the Arab world and Islam on everything when it's not the case, people don't understand how different we really are until they go to Kabyle or the Rif.

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Jesus. I would be the most aggressive bitter asshole around if I lived in those backwards ass circumstances.

I'd look at moving in all honesty if possible. That's a pathetic story.

Dude, it is nearly impossible to get an EU passport as a North African citizen let alone get to Canada or the US. You have to have family in those regions and go on a student visa or wait 5 years and hope to maybe have a chance to leave

@Demon

In Germany, the so-called "Kuppelei-Paragraph" (a law that didn't allow people out of wedlock to get a hotel room together or could theoretically get people in trouble who allowed non-married persons to be overnight together in rooms they owned) was only abolished on 7 June 1973, and even here the CDU/CSU (the "Christian" Democratic Party) voted against it, but was outvoted. At the same day, homosexuality became legal among (consenting) adults.

So you see, even in "modern" societies, it took quite a while to go from the "protection of public morals" to the "protection of individual sexual self-determination".

Tomwin Lannister wrote:I'd look at moving in all honesty if possible. That's a pathetic story.

Weren't you one of the most vocal people against North African immigrants being allowed into European countries like, say, Germany?

RWO

Not only in Tunisia...

This doesn't go under the same topic, but I figured I'd put it here since there's no thread for global/local news reports.

An elderly Norwegian man died a few years ago (presumably of natural causes), after the local police decided to investigate his death, which was reported by his wife (73). Through questioning the deceased man's family and friends, they found out that the man had been beaten, threatened and harrassed for about 40 years, without anyone reporting it to the police. The couple's three adult kids have testified against their mom.

The clearly deranged wife is now serving a 3-year sentence in jail. Some of her offenses include: Forcing her husbond to sleep in the cellar and limiting his access to food, toilet, showering and a phone, beating him in the head with an iron tool, the foot of a lamp, and other pieces of furniture/decorations. Allegedly, she also threw away his mail and necessary medications, and he had a 5cm- long scar on his arm that was caused by her cutting him with a stanley knife.  

3-year sentence for abusing someone over a period of 40-ish years I really appreciate the degree of liberalism and emphasis on promoting equal rights in this country, but it certainly doesn't come without it's downsides. Apparently, there are thousands of similar cases in this country that have been reported over the past decade, or so.

RWO, problem here is that we're not even talking about cohabitation, we're just talking about two people of the opposite sex being in the same closed space together for few hours. Why is it illegal in Tunisia? Why is it even considered socially unacceptable and unethical even?

Why are they trying so hard to make men and women uncomfortable around each other here?

I even forgot to tell you that kissing is illegal in public in Tunisia. Wrap your head around that. 20-freaking-16 and you still have people with this stone-age mentality making laws and telling people how to live their lives.

You know why? Because some people haven't fully evolved yet. Their thinking solely revolves around sex, food and sleep. And it doesn't matter how liberal and educated the people are; if you have one bigoted simpleton in power, the whole country will be forced to live under their rules, especially in third-world countries.

Thimmy wrote:This doesn't go under the same topic, but I figured I'd put it here since there's no thread for global/local news reports.

An elderly Norwegian man died a few years ago (presumably of natural causes), after the local police decided to investigate his death, which was reported by his wife (73). Through questioning the deceased man's family and friends, they found out that the man had been beaten, threatened and harrassed for about 40 years, without anyone reporting it to the police. The couple's three adult kids have testified against their mom.

The clearly deranged wife is now serving a 3-year sentence in jail. Some of her offenses include: Forcing her husbond to sleep in the cellar and limiting his access to food, toilet, showering and a phone, beating him in the head with an iron tool, the foot of a lamp, and other pieces of furniture/decorations. Allegedly, she also threw away his mail and necessary medications, and he had a 5cm- long scar on his arm that was caused by her cutting him with a stanley knife.  

3-year sentence for abusing someone over a period of 40-ish years I really appreciate the degree of liberalism and emphasis on promoting equal rights in this country, but it certainly doesn't come without it's downsides. Apparently, there are thousands of similar cases in this country that have been reported over the past decade, or so.

We have many cases of domestic violence against men here. I think men, as opposed to women, most of them at least, are ashamed to report when their wives are beating them up. Same thing with rape, men would rather take it to the grave than bring shame to themselves and their families, especially in conservative societies like mine.

What's even sadder is that some people, and society as a whole (including men), don't care about other men being at the receiving end of a beating. Some find it funny at times. People get more outraged when it happens to women, but not so much for men. And the justice system tends to be more lenient towards women than men for committing the same crime.

I wish we cared about everybody equally, regardless of gender, color or creed. Domestic violence is domestic violence whether it's done by men or women.

That poor man, 40 years, is it? My god! I'm not a lawyer, and also I would have to see all the details in the case to have a better understanding of it all, but dammit 3 years for abusing, beating and starving your husband for 40 years? that sounds pretty lenient to me.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:

Thimmy wrote:This doesn't go under the same topic, but I figured I'd put it here since there's no thread for global/local news reports.

An elderly Norwegian man died a few years ago (presumably of natural causes), after the local police decided to investigate his death, which was reported by his wife (73). Through questioning the deceased man's family and friends, they found out that the man had been beaten, threatened and harrassed for about 40 years, without anyone reporting it to the police. The couple's three adult kids have testified against their mom.

The clearly deranged wife is now serving a 3-year sentence in jail. Some of her offenses include: Forcing her husbond to sleep in the cellar and limiting his access to food, toilet, showering and a phone, beating him in the head with an iron tool, the foot of a lamp, and other pieces of furniture/decorations. Allegedly, she also threw away his mail and necessary medications, and he had a 5cm- long scar on his arm that was caused by her cutting him with a stanley knife.  

3-year sentence for abusing someone over a period of 40-ish years I really appreciate the degree of liberalism and emphasis on promoting equal rights in this country, but it certainly doesn't come without it's downsides. Apparently, there are thousands of similar cases in this country that have been reported over the past decade, or so.

We have many cases of domestic violence against men here. I think men, as opposed to women, most of them at least, are ashamed to report when their wives are beating them up. Same thing with rape, men would rather take it to the grave than bring shame to themselves and their families, especially in conservative societies like mine.

What's even sadder is that some people, and society as a whole (including men), don't care about other men being at the receiving end of a beating. Some find it funny at times. People get more outraged when it happens to women, but not so much for men. And the justice system tends to be more lenient towards women than men for committing the same crime.

I wish we cared about everybody equally, regardless of gender, color or creed. Domestic violence is domestic violence whether it's done by men or women.

That poor man, 40 years, is it? My god! I'm not a lawyer, and also I would have to see all the details in the case to have a better understanding of it all, but dammit 3 years for abusing, beating and starving your husband for 40 years? that sounds pretty lenient to me.

Our justice system is probably the most lenient one in the world. We're actually famous for our work on rehabilitating convicted criminals, as opposed to punishing them. Foreign media have made countless stories on our prisons, where they either ridicule them for their excessive leniency, or use statistics to argue that rehabilitating seems to be a far more "sensible" and economical solution than punishment, when it actually works the way it's intended. Two examples of this is our prison on Bastøy Island - a prison that attempts to rehabilitate criminals convicted of murder, rape and whatnot. Another is that our prisons are relatively luxurious, and the terrorist, Breivik is being held captive in one of these prisons - many Norwegians would opt for a far, far harsher punishment for him, but as it stands, he's living in a "3-star hotel", and he's currently studying for a degree in political science, from within confinement  

I appreciate our emphasis on rehabilitation over punishment, in general, but like everything else in this country, we have tons of seemingly positive practices that are far from perfect. And I definitely agree with you, when it comes to equality. I think we've come a long way, in that respect, but evidently our society in general seems to expect men to be better fit than women in dealing with certain issues of violence and mental trauma, and that's definitely a subject that doesn't get enough attention here.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:You know, even though I'm a Muslim, I now think Islam is not for everybody. If you're not intellectually capable of "updating" Islam to this day and age, if you're unable to understand that you're not god and therefore you can't judge anybody, if you can't respect people from different cultures, religions and race and countries, you should either die or live in a cave because society is not meant for you.

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of this retrograde society I live in, and I think the younger generations must get out of their slumber and make radical changes to our constitution, beginning by separating religion from the state and making Tunisia a secular country. Enough is enough, the young people must take the wheel in this country, and the old, bigoted ones must step aside.

That young kid didn't die because he slipped and fell, he died because of a nosy, mentally deranged woman and a laughable penal code.

That isn't a punishment in Islam tho. Yes, Islam doesn't look at freemixing in regards to most, but it still isn't a crime as some people make it out to be. Swearing is also a sin are these places handing out sentence in jail for cursing?

Thank you, WiC, for taking the time to stop by and offer your take on the matter. I feel I should apologize to you because I'm not really sure I understand what you mean, and I was wondering, if it's not too much trouble, if you would be so kind as to explain a bit further so I can give you an accurate and thorough answer.

Thank you so much

Sexual mores and attitudes exist on a continuum. It's not a very sensible or good idea to be at either end of the continuum.
I don't think it's bad to have discipline and morals but a lot of Muslim societies have an extreme obsessiveness with it.

Not that the west isn't also *bleep* in its own, different ways.
In the bottom levels of society we have unprecedented levels of children giving birth to children, despite sex education, (which points to the sexualisation and sexual abuse of children), widespread domestic violence caused by jealousy caused by promiscuity, serial stepfather-hood which directly leads to mass physical and sexual child abuse.
Don't even get me started on how much resources are wasted on preventable sexually transmitted diseases. Ugh, the UK have recently decided to fund a HIV treatment so that "high-risk" individuals can have safe sex without a condom, at the cost of funding many other  treatments ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3722686/How-blameless-sick-paying-price-HIV-drug-NHS-chiefs-spell-nine-vital-treatments-gone.html ). Prioritising the right of being able to have no-condom-anal-sex orgies over cancer treatment. Barmy stuff.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Thank you, WiC, for taking the time to stop by and offer your take on the matter. I feel I should apologize to you because I'm not really sure I understand what you mean, and I was wondering, if it's not too much trouble, if you would be so kind as to explain a bit further so I can give you an accurate and thorough answer.

Thank you so much

I apologize I'm not one who really likes getting into religious debates tbh, hence my small reply, but I'll see if I can elaborate on that a little to my knowledge. You said,

"You know, even though I'm a Muslim, I now think Islam is not for everybody. If you're not intellectually capable of "updating" Islam to this day and age, if you're unable to understand that you're not god and therefore you can't judge anybody, if you can't respect people from different cultures, religions and race and countries, you should either die or live in a cave because society is not meant for you."

I personally don't think Islam is suppose to be updated to this day and age tbh with you, but rather people need a better understanding of Islam, because a place is a Muslim country doesn't mean they follow Islam correctly your example above is a prime example of this.

Did you know according to the Qu'ran accusing a chaste women of any form of fornication with evidence/witnesses is sin as well as a crime that actually Allah (swt) one who does that should be whipped 80 times? and not only that the can never be used as witness for any crime. What is your law trying indicate? That they have something going on right, with no proper evidence or witness. Islamically speaking as I stated a thread before you need 4 people actually seeing the people penetrating each other to get those 4 witnesses, walking on two people naked wouldn't prove anything, it literally has to be penetrating each other.

As DuringTheWar sum up of this up makes sense, today when people sleep around, which causes them getting many diseases which ends up wide spread or it ends up someone getting knocked up and now a kid is on his way, but in cases either they abort the child, throw him/her into some Church or some are involved in sexual/physical abuse by certain partners, hence the laws in the religion condoning these acts. One of the reason for the whips punishment was a warning to something greater that is already here today and that is the pornography world, which has corrupt the mind of many lead to many wrong doings, from cheating, breaking marriage, abuse, rape, etc.

Winter is Coming wrote:

The Demon of Carthage wrote:Thank you, WiC, for taking the time to stop by and offer your take on the matter. I feel I should apologize to you because I'm not really sure I understand what you mean, and I was wondering, if it's not too much trouble, if you would be so kind as to explain a bit further so I can give you an accurate and thorough answer.

Thank you so much

I apologize I'm not one who really likes getting into religious debates tbh, hence my small reply, but I'll see if I can elaborate on that a little to my knowledge. You said,

"You know, even though I'm a Muslim, I now think Islam is not for everybody. If you're not intellectually capable of "updating" Islam to this day and age, if you're unable to understand that you're not god and therefore you can't judge anybody, if you can't respect people from different cultures, religions and race and countries, you should either die or live in a cave because society is not meant for you."

I personally don't think Islam is suppose to be updated to this day and age tbh with you, but rather people need a better understanding of Islam, because a place is a Muslim country doesn't mean they follow Islam correctly your example above is a prime example of this.

Did you know according to the Qu'ran accusing a chaste women of any form of fornication with evidence/witnesses is sin as well as a crime that actually Allah (swt) one who does that should be whipped 80 times? and not only that the can never be used as witness for any crime. What is your law trying indicate? That they have something going on right, with no proper evidence or witness. Islamically speaking as I stated a thread before you need 4 people actually seeing the people penetrating each other to get those 4 witnesses, walking on two people naked wouldn't prove anything, it literally has to be penetrating each other.

As DuringTheWar sum up of this up makes sense, today when people sleep around, which causes them getting many diseases which ends up wide spread or it ends up someone getting knocked up and now a kid is on his way, but in cases either they abort the child, throw him/her into some Church or some are involved in sexual/physical abuse by certain partners, hence the laws in the religion condoning these acts. One of the reason for the whips punishment was a warning to something greater that is already here today and that is the pornography world, which has corrupt the mind of many lead to many wrong doings, from cheating, breaking marriage, abuse, rape, etc.

I understand what you're saying now, and I agree with you. Thanks for clearing it up.

I'd like to clarify something though, by "updating Islam" I meant "updating the minds of those claiming to be Muslims".

You'd be surprised, but in Tunisia, even though many pretend to be Muslims, few of them are.

Most Tunisians don't pray, are the heaviest alcohol drinkers per capita in the Maghreb region and do pretty much every single "sin" in the book. But then, they're shameless enough to judge other people for doing the same "sins" as them. This is what I hate about them; hypocrisy.

The woman who called the cops on the poor guy and his friend is not religious. But she has, however, an obsessive compulsion to interfere in other people's lives.

Our government is not religious at all either and they couldn't care less about Islam. What they do care about however is controlling and suffocating the masses by making nonsensical laws that have nothing to do with Islam.

And even though I'm religious, I don't think that you have to be religious to be a "good" person. If the only reason keeping one from stealing, or raping or killing is the fear of God, then they're not really a good person. If one would behave differently if God didn't exist, then they're not a good person, they're hypocrites.

This is what I meant by "Islam is not for everybody". First rule is to never judge anyone or presume anything. Understand that society has become diverse now, and people from all different backgrounds are living around us; therefore, we should respect them and not be arrogant enough to claim we know the absolute truth or force our beliefs on them.

And as far as I'm concerned, I truly believe that religion (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with people being good or bad. I believe that some people are innately good while others are innately bad regardless of whether or not they're religious. That's why sometimes you cross paths with an atheist who's 1000x more kind, compassionate and generous than most of the religious people you've met in your lifetime.

The obsessive compulsion to interfere in people's lives are written in Islam. The 4 man witness before beheading the sinners for Sex law is nothing but excessive obsessiveness on others life.

Or the laws that directs women what to wear, what to do, whome to marry, where to go etc etc are also just controlling people's lives with laws that doesn't make sense in today's world.

There are more funny laws in all religions which is not about.

I'm sorry dude but Islam itself categorizes people. It claims it as the absolute truth and it emphasizes that all other religions are wrong and all other gods are false. Why would a Muslim pretend otherwise when Quran itself said it?

You are absolutely right that religion has nothing to do with People becoming good or bad but it's not innate spirit either. The fact that you can find atheist doing good things just as much as religious people will tell you how pointless religions are and how ridiculous is their claim that the good atheist will go to hell for not believing in certain God.