I'm sorry dude but Islam itself categorizes people. It claims it as the absolute truth and it emphasizes that all other religions are wrong and all other gods are false. Why would a Muslim pretend otherwise when Quran itself said it?

You are absolutely right that religion has nothing to do with People becoming good or bad but it's not innate spirit either. The fact that you can find atheist doing good things just as much as religious people will tell you how pointless religions are and how ridiculous is their claim that the good atheist will go to hell for not believing in certain God.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:I understand what you're saying now, and I agree with you. Thanks for clearing it up.

I'd like to clarify something though, by "updating Islam" I meant "updating the minds of those claiming to be Muslims".

You'd be surprised, but in Tunisia, even though many pretend to be Muslims, few of them are.

Most Tunisians don't pray, are the heaviest alcohol drinkers per capita in the Maghreb region and do pretty much every single "sin" in the book. But then, they're shameless enough to judge other people for doing the same "sins" as them. This is what I hate about them; hypocrisy.

The woman who called the cops on the poor guy and his friend is not religious. But she has, however, an obsessive compulsion to interfere in other people's lives.

Our government is not religious at all either and they couldn't care less about Islam. What they do care about however is controlling and suffocating the masses by making nonsensical laws that have nothing to do with Islam.

This has exist throughout history with both religious and not religious people. If you've read about previous Prophet you could see all the ignorance and hypocrisy people have shown to god and his Prophets. Unfortunately it won't be something that will go, because it's doubt and mentality that you have to battle that is difficult.

I agree, I also find it funny when people judge others and they are doing similar sins, if not worse. Islam doesn't till us to judge people, but rather advise, it's only when sins are being done publicly is the action taken more seriously, as these sins end up corrupting and/or encouraging people to do this. There are many example of this in the world today.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:And even though I'm religious, I don't think that you have to be religious to be a "good" person. If the only reason keeping one from stealing, or raping or killing is the fear of God, then they're not really a good person. If one would behave differently if God didn't exist, then they're not a good person, they're hypocrites.

This is what I meant by "Islam is not for everybody". First rule is to never judge anyone or presume anything. Understand that society has become diverse now, and people from all different backgrounds are living around us; therefore, we should respect them and not be arrogant enough to claim we know the absolute truth or force our beliefs on them.

And as far as I'm concerned, I truly believe that religion (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with people being good or bad. I believe that some people are innately good while others are innately bad regardless of whether or not they're religious. That's why sometimes you cross paths with an atheist who's 1000x more kind, compassionate and generous than most of the religious people you've met in your lifetime.

I think the point of that is to remember you will face god and be among him, even today's time they'll be people who act good and do good in front of you, but yet they're probably the most twisted person you've actually met, but just didn't know the things they actually did. Fearing god is no different to fearing laws in a country, it's not remember there is a higher authority who knows everything your doing rather openly or hidden and to fear him and do right.

I don't think people are made to be bad per se, as I believe what their surrounded around makes them into what they are. A few years back I remember watching something about these criminals, rapist, serial killers, etc. and interestingly enough most had a very similar story, either they were abused as children, witness murder themselves, were watching movies regarding serial killers, pornography, etc. all lead to these actions, even when it comes to gangs, mafia, etc. it's usually people surrounded around this. Culture is another example usually people put that ahead of everything else and adopt to this kind of life.

Religion imo gives hope, a sign of good things away for people to truly find themselves, but when your driven by society, culture, or adopting to this modern world then you will lack faith. At the end of the day when one truly believes in god he would know that he's answering to him at the end and not the people of this world.

Heaviest drinkers in the Maghreb.. Damn that has to go to Casablanca. Honorable shout out to oran.

Religion is pointless until you know how to handle it. Believing in a superior entity, but also understanding that you are the sole responsible for your acts on earth, can be very helpful regarding emotional state.

I know almost nothing about Islam. I was born orthodox, but in my opinion, being religious doesn't really mean that you have to be the slave of a particular doctrine, which happened to me when I was younger to be honest and happens to many people during their lives and usually they are not aware of that. It's because you are born in a specific environment. So the Islamic people(can be any religion here), some of them don't really have a choice. At least, they are not aware that they have it. Some of them realize that they can do much more with religion.

From my personal experience, I can say that the way we think about life, religion etc. it is not entirely up to us from the beginning, it is only after we reach the necessary maturity (life experience) to look more at ourselves.

So, I am pretty sure that if we allow ourselves to make mistakes and not to seek perfection, but only improvement and progress, we are able to endorse almost any kind of religion because they were made to be useful. I don't consider myself anymore an Orthodox, but I believe in God. And to be fair, I lost my faith in Him for a few years. I had to lose faith, to go into darkness so I could let the light come to my soul. Now I have my own and personal view on religion and God. Also, think about the diversity of religions as a perfect context for us humans to evolve.

So, regarding the topic of the thread. It is hard to hear such things. It shouldn't be illegal for two people of opposite sex to stay together in a room for a few hours. I mean, as a concept, it shouldn't be illegal to feel free to do whatever you want as long as you don't harm anybody. Some would say that those rules were made from precaution. I read it in a book and I perfectly agree with the fact that extreme precaution is paradoxically one of the aspects that cause most of the harm in this world. Why? Because we forget that we are vulnerable. We forget that we can be wrong, we forget that we can allow ourselves to be wrong and due to extreme precaution we tend to become mentally sick or create laws that somehow make us fight each other and kill between ourselves on long term. In a state where precaution dominates, it is very probable, that such things like the one that we talk about, are likely to happen.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:You know, even though I'm a Muslim, I now think Islam is not for everybody. If you're not intellectually capable of "updating" Islam to this day and age, if you're unable to understand that you're not god and therefore you can't judge anybody, if you can't respect people from different cultures, religions and race and countries, you should either die or live in a cave because society is not meant for you.

In my opinion, this is almost what religion should be about. I kind of agree with Demon. Make it about yourself by making yourself open to the others. Adaptation. The force of forgiveness is the biggest (love) and that's what most people should adapt to because we lack love the most. It sounds like a cliche that "love is the answer", but actually it is the answer.

And let's not say "intellectually capable". It is a harsh and unreasonable tag that we put on some people. If we do, it also proves that we do judge others. Let's consider that those people who didn't adapt so far, are the ones that the people who have already adapted to the society, should help. That's the bigger cause that I like to see.

Throwing excuses, finding something to blame, a person, a religion, a country, a race... it's in our human nature, we all tend to do something like that at least once in our lives.

I tend to believe that Tunisia has an unfavorable past of social and political contexts. What can you tell me about this? Is it right?

Winter is Coming wrote:I think the point of that is to remember you will face god and be among him, even today's time they'll be people who act good and do good in front of you, but yet they're probably the most twisted person you've actually met, but just didn't know the things they actually did.

We all have masks, unintentionally created since we started denying different events or situations that made us feel vulnerable in front of other people. Feeling vulnerable in front of other people starts at a young age when family, friends, teachers, society in general, put tags on us and induce us a harmful shame. A shame that we don't know how to embrace. So, being a hypocrite nowadays is very common and I can say about myself that I was, I am and probably will be a hypocrite regarding a few things that concern my personal feelings and personality, until I fully accept them. What we should try to do is to recognize better our behavior and cultivate our feelings (like shame, fear, pain etc.) into something useful which can help us to evolve. This is what I think.

Winter is Coming wrote:I don't think people are made to be bad per se, as I believe what their surrounded around makes them into what they are. A few years back I remember watching something about these criminals, rapist, serial killers, etc. and interestingly enough most had a very similar story, either they were abused as children, witness murder themselves, were watching movies regarding serial killers, pornography, etc. all lead to these actions, even when it comes to gangs, mafia, etc. it's usually people surrounded around this. Culture is another example usually people put that ahead of everything else and adopt to this kind of life.

Religion imo gives hope, a sign of good things away for people to truly find themselves, but when your driven by society, culture, or adopting to this modern world then you will lack faith. At the end of the day when one truly believes in god he would know that he's answering to him at the end and not the people of this world.

And yes, this is an aspect that matters a lot. It is proven by history that these kind of things affect us a lot. Traumas from childhood. Almost everybody has at least one traumatic event in his life. We can't categorize them, they happen to be different from person to person and can't be put in a list. What we can do is try to accept them and to not deny them forever. It is acceptable to deny them at first, it's even natural to deny them as a protection method that our brains have. But denying them for too long cause us to deny a lot of other things and we tend to deny everything at ourselves. This makes us believe we are not worthy of anything. It also makes us think that we are the only ones guilty and faulty regarding what we did, which is false. So, our self-esteem reaches the lowest level possible. Then we do not take care of our bodies and our minds anymore and we start shooting and killing other people.

A political regime can be traumatic for the population of a country. A good example is Romania, my country. The communism era which ended in 1989 is an actual trauma for our nation.

And by the way @The Demon of Carthage , it is not love that killed in this case.

Guys I just stopped by to tell you that I didn't ignore you, but I have been quite sick and even typing feels like torture to me.

I thank you all for your responses and for giving me your precious time, and I promise I'll reply back to each and everyone of you when I get better.

Thank you, and again I'm sorry

I hope it's nothing very serious!

Get well soon, Demon!

Get better soon! (And yeah, I can feel with you - I have some problems with the eyes the last days and I'm still sitting in front of the monitor with sunglasses on XD)

Finally, I'm back to this great forum! I apologize for my delayed response guys, and thanks to everyone for wishing me a speedy recovery. God, I've missed this place!

Anyway, back to topic:

Adit wrote:The obsessive compulsion to interfere in people's lives are written in Islam. The 4 man witness before beheading the sinners for Sex law is nothing but excessive obsessiveness on others life.

I don't blame you for believing this because it's a common misconception even amongst many Muslims.

First of all, the four-witness rule is meant to protect men and women from being falsely accused of adultery by someone with a grudge or bad intentions. The accuser is required to produce four impeccable witnesses to back up their claims. If they cannot, the accuser is to be punished severely for falsely accusing people and attempting to ruin them, and they are never to be trusted to give evidence again.

If Tunisia had applied that rule, the poor boy wouldn't have died, because the woman who called the cops on them would have had to produce four witnesses to support her claim.

You have to understand that even though Tunisia declares Islam to be its state religion, they don't apply Islamic laws in court. Islam didn't kill the poor boy here, it's the backward thinking of a society that refuses to advance that did. I repeat, if they applied Islamic laws here, the boy would've been alive now. And the punishment for adultery in Islam is not beheading.

Or the laws that directs women what to wear, what to do, whome to marry, where to go etc etc are also just controlling people's lives with laws that doesn't make sense in today's world.

This is another myth fabricated by Islamic extremists to control women and scare the world into rejecting Islam. Just so you know, Islam doesn't tell women what to do or who to marry or where to go. As for the dress code, Burka and Nikab are in no way, shape or form Islamic. The only thing women are required to wear in Islam is the Hijab, but the rest of the clothing choice depends solely on them.

Don't confuse what Islam says with what some misogynistic, oppressive, controlling men do. Most men in the Arab world are misogynists and think women are inferior to men, but that has nothing to do with Islam and more to do with their culture. In that I mean, even if the Qur'an had specifically said that women are literally equal to men, these people would have still believed they are superior. When you lack education, manners and ethics, you tend to be ignorant, and that's exactly what these people are. It has nothing to do with Islam because there are non-Muslims from different cultures, backgrounds and races who happen to be misogynists or misandrists. Even if religion were to disappear tomorrow, those people would still exist, and as long as they are ignorant, they will continue to behave that way.

Adit wrote:I'm sorry dude but Islam itself categorizes people. It claims it as the absolute truth and it emphasizes that all other religions are wrong and all other gods are false.

Why would a Muslim pretend otherwise when Quran itself said it?

Literally every religion out there claims to be the right one. But this doesn't give me the right to claim that my religion is the right one. I shouldn't be arrogant enough to claim such an outrageous thing based solely on my faith. I have no proof to back it up, and for all we know, God could very well not exist. To say that my religion is the right one, in this day and age, would be proof that I'm a crazy person and should be locked up in a mental hospital.

Yes I'm a Muslim, but I don't have blind faith. I'm always open to the possibility that I could be wrong and that everything I believe in could one day be debunked.

how ridiculous is their claim that the good atheist will go to hell for not believing in certain God.

You have a point here and I'm still struggling to figure out why my God would send a person who did nothing but good things in their entire life to hell just because they're atheist. To me it doesn't make any sense.

Maybe my tiny brain isn't capable of perceiving things from God's perspective, but if I were God, I wouldn't punish a good atheist. In fact, I would alleviate them above the rest because they did good while expecting nothing in return.

@Demon
Is it even required to wear a hijab for women? Wasn't it rather that both men and women were required to "dress modestly", but not what pieces of clothing this entails? (At least that's what an Egyptian friend explained to me.)

Winter is Coming wrote:
I agree, I also find it funny when people judge others and they are doing similar sins, if not worse. Islam doesn't till us to judge people, but rather advise, it's only when sins are being done publicly is the action taken more seriously, as these sins end up corrupting and/or encouraging people to do this. There are many example of this in the world today.

Here's the thing though, what may be perceived as a sin to you, may not be for someone else from a different religious background.

As a Muslim, I can't go to the US for instance and tell its citizens that drinking alcohol for example is a sin, because that would mean I'm assuming everybody has the same faith as I do and/or forcing my own beliefs on them.

What I need to do, however, is respect their culture, history and traditions, and keep my own beliefs to myself. Now, If they asked me about Islam or came to me for advice, I would be happy to give them my modest opinion, otherwise, I would keep it for myself.

People are born with a moral core, and are innately capable of knowing right from wrong. They don't need religion to become "good", and they certainly don't need a stranger telling them how to live their lives. Some people don't even care about religion; some of them are struggling to make their ends meet while others would feel offended if you came up to them to talk about religion. So the wise thing, in my humble opinion, would be to respect their space and only talk about Islam (or any other religion) when they ask you to.

I think the point of that is to remember you will face god and be among him, even today's time they'll be people who act good and do good in front of you, but yet they're probably the most twisted person you've actually met, but just didn't know the things they actually did. Fearing god is no different to fearing laws in a country, it's not remember there is a higher authority who knows everything your doing rather openly or hidden and to fear him and do right.

Appearances are deceiving, true, but you can't deny the fact that there are wonderful people out there who do good, not to appease God or to go to heaven, but because they simply want to. To me; that's the most noble thing in the world because it means even if God didn't exist, they would still do good. Some religious people, however, would go rogue if they thought God doesn't exist.

If the only thing keeping you from doing bad things is the fear of God and ever-lasting torture in Hell, then you're not a good person. And I would choose a good atheist over a hypocritical fake religious person any day of the week.

I don't think people are made to be bad per se, as I believe what their surrounded around makes them into what they are. A few years back I remember watching something about these criminals, rapist, serial killers, etc. and interestingly enough most had a very similar story, either they were abused as children, witness murder themselves, were watching movies regarding serial killers, pornography, etc. all lead to these actions, even when it comes to gangs, mafia, etc. it's usually people surrounded around this. Culture is another example usually people put that ahead of everything else and adopt to this kind of life.

I respectfully disagree here. If you're a good person, it doesn't matter how many pounds of drugs you have laying around you, it doesn't matter how many bad-influence friends you hang out with, It doesn't matter whether or not you were abused as a child, you'll remain good even if God tells you otherwise.

Some people wouldn't steal even if their lives depended on it. They have pride and self-respect and their conviction are unwavering.

True, the environment plays a role in forging one's character, but ultimately, it all comes down to the person. This is why you have sometimes brothers with completely different characters.

Religion imo gives hope, a sign of good things away for people to truly find themselves, but when your driven by society, culture, or adopting to this modern world then you will lack faith. At the end of the day when one truly believes in god he would know that he's answering to him at the end and not the people of this world.

If you're answering to God then the number one goal you should be pursuing is how to make life easier to those around you. Finding a cure for cancer, plunging into the unknown and exploring its hidden mysteries, building a ladder of knowledge that would reach God and make him clap for you.

That's how, in my humble opinion, you should answer to God.

rwo power wrote:@Demon
Is it even required to wear a hijab for women? Wasn't it rather that both men and women were required to "dress modestly", but not what pieces of clothing this entails? (At least that's what an Egyptian friend explained to me.)

You're right, not "hijab" per say, but a head covering. Basically, the outer garment worn in public must cover all of the body except the face and hands, which means she can wear whatever she wants as long as it's "modest". What her hair is covered with doesn't matter as long as it's covered. The word in the Qur'an is "Khoumour", plural of "Khimar") which is basically a head covering. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a hijab, any head covering will do.

Vlad, I only quoted the parts of your post where I disagreed with you or needed to add something to your otherwise pretty accurate assessment.

Vlad the Impaler wrote:
I know almost nothing about Islam. I was born orthodox, but in my opinion, being religious doesn't really mean that you have to be the slave of a particular doctrine, which happened to me when I was younger to be honest and happens to many people during their lives and usually they are not aware of that. It's because you are born in a specific environment. So the Islamic people(can be any religion here), some of them don't really have a choice. At least, they are not aware that they have it. Some of them realize that they can do much more with religion.

From my personal experience, I can say that the way we think about life, religion etc. it is not entirely up to us from the beginning, it is only after we reach the necessary maturity (life experience) to look more at ourselves.

To quote Richard Dawkins in an answer to a Christian girl who asked him "What if you're wrong?":
"You know what it's like to not believe in a particular faith because you're not a Muslim. You're not a Hindu. Why aren't you a Hindu? Because you happen to have been brought up in America, not in India. If you had been brought up in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you had been brought up in Denmark in the time of the Vikings you'd be believing in Wotan and Thor. If you were brought up in classical Greece you'd be believing in, in Zeus. If you were brought up in central Africa you'd be believing in the great Juju up the mountain. There's no particular reason to pick on the Judeo-Christian god, in which by the sheerest accident you happen to have been brought up and, and ask me the question, "What if I'm wrong?" What if you're wrong about the great Juju at the bottom of the sea?"

Vlad, I agree with you, It's almost inevitable to be influenced by your environment when choosing which religion to follow. The key here is for your parents to not scare you into adopting their particular faith, to give you the option of dropping it if you're not convinced, and to assure you that there wouldn't be any repercussions if you did. That's how you put your child's mind at ease and make them feel safe knowing that there's always the option to check out.

Throwing excuses, finding something to blame, a person, a religion, a country, a race... it's in our human nature, we all tend to do something like that at least once in our lives.

I hate making excuses for my failure or blaming somebody else for it. Even if somebody is partly behind it, I'd still take full responsibility for it.

I tend to believe that Tunisia has an unfavorable past of social and political contexts. What can you tell me about this? Is it right?

Absolutely. Tunisia has all the ingredients to be an advanced country: a strategic location, a rich, ancient history and natural resources. Unfortunately, the people living in it don't deserve such a beautiful country.

What the former president did to it can't be wiped clean in my lifetime. Corruption runs wild here. It's almost impossible to do anything, even the smallest of things, without connections.

Before him, the educational system was a model of excellence. Under Bourguiba's reign (who unfortunately was also a dictator, but a well-educated dictator nonetheless), the Tunisian students would go anywhere in the world and succeed with flying colors. The exams were so hard that you'd have to be a demon to succeed. The doctors and engineers who graduated in that era are still respected to this very day. And everybody was fluent in at least three languages. My parents speak French better than Tunisian Arabic.

Then the former president came along and brought death with him. He destroyed the educational system and kept people away from politics by distracting them with football and regionalism.

He pushed the brilliant minds to flee the country and look for decent education elsewhere, thus keeping only the avrage IQs in the country so he can rule in peace.

The revolution that overthrew him brought democracy...But when people aren't educated enough, democracy becomes pointless.

The change I was hoping for will certainly not come in my lifetime, but I hope the generations to come will have a better country: a democratic, secular, financially solvent country.

Glad u are back.


Regarding the adultery rule. Isn't the rule itself a bit controlling people's life? Punishing people for sharing love doesn't seem like a fair idea to me.


One thing I always wondered is why would God allow other people to punish the sinners when they will get punished in hell anyway? Punishing people twice? What makes God think that people have the right to punish other people via Sharia law?

You don't understand as usual. It's not the religious policies our countries have. It's the corruption and stupid people we have. You try everything to insult Islam, which in All truth doesn't bother me that much, but you post with an agenda which is pretty annoying

FennecFox7 wrote:You don't understand as usual. It's not the religious policies our countries have. It's the corruption and stupid people we have. You try everything to insult Islam, which in All truth doesn't bother me that much, but you post with an agenda which is pretty annoying

No. I could expose any religion in the world. Islam is not insulted in my post, just exposed for its fallacies.

Adit wrote:
Regarding the adultery rule. Isn't the rule itself a bit controlling people's life? Punishing people for sharing love doesn't seem like a fair idea to me.

It's a little bit controlling, I agree, but if you take into account the era during which this law was being applied, you'd probably think it was for the greater good. We're talking about an era in time (pre-Islam) where everything was permitted and people were intellectually incapable of grasping the concept of right and wrong. That rule made sure that people got married first before sleeping with each other, thus strengthening the family foundation and  preventing society from having illegitimate children and outcasts. In this day and age, however, that rule seems severe because, as opposed to before, it's a lot more expensive and difficult to get married now, and young people would have to keep working until their 30s to be financially stable to do so.  And so, if this rule is to be applied now, you'd have many sexually frustrated people, and if you're going to force them into waiting until they get married in their 30s to consummate their relationships, many of them will find it very difficult to do so.

So I guess that rule was really great when it first came out, but now, and given the circumstances, I'm not really sure applying it wouldn't backfire.

One thing I always wondered is why would God allow other people to punish the sinners when they will get punished in hell anyway? Punishing people twice? What makes God think that people have the right to punish other people via Sharia law?

It's the same thing with the justice system. Some people don't even need the law to behave properly in society. Others, however and unfortunately, need the firm grip of the law to keep them from going rogue. And so the law exists to prevent those people from doing all the bad things that they would definitely do if the law didn't exist.