Re: Zinedine Zidane Appreciation Thread

[El blanco de Oriente]

awesomeness! He managed to turn this shitty season around

[phenom]

Let's judge after the next season
Let him make his signings and have a proper preseason
Only then we shall know

[Casciavit]

Let's see how he does next season. For all we know, Zidiola can turn into Zi Matteo.

[rincon]

Some posts here are hilarious...

BBC has always and will always be at its best when its set up for the counter attack.  Atleti is at its worse when it has to make play in tight spaces as they are also a counter attack team.

Does it not make sense to sit back and force Atleti to do what they are least proficient at?  Is it not even more common sense since it also puts your attack in its optimum setup?

The best teams in Serie A always play this way tactically since forever... same with Italy NT.  Namely, if you score the go ahead goal, force the opposition to attack you so you have the chance to counter attack.

If you think this isn't impressive... then I guess Ancellotti, Lippi, Trapattoni, Capello, etc. are shit tactical managers then  This is the exact blueprint that all these guys use

If we weren't clumsy with our finishing, we would have won this game 3-1 at least.

I know the point you are trying to make, in Italy coaches do whatever it takes to win, I'm a big fan of that. Football needs every style. That said, Ancelotti and Lippi definitely do not set up like that. They've never been known for their defensive tactics to the point of Capello, Trappatoni and apparently Zidane.

This degree of sitting back hasn't been prominent in top teams in Italy in a long time. Look at Ancelotti, Prandelli, Spalletti, Montella, Conte, Allegri, Mancini, etc. His setup was straight up like Di Matteo's or Trappatoni's.

He needs to grow and have more time to see what he can do. I hope he develops and one day coaches Juve if he is good and can do more.

[Hapless_Hans]

Zep ffs

I never would have imagines.

[sportsczy]

Carlo and Lippi very much played compact and relied on the counter attack in the big games...  that was the big problem with Carlo:  We didn't know how to control a game against the lesser teams.  Just looked uncomfortable and ineffective.  So we would drop a lot of points against teams we shouldn't.  Can't win the league that way.

But when we also started losing against the better sides... that was the end of Carlo.

Had the same issue at PSG... and he became the only manager under the Qatari ownership to fail to win the league.  He was handed a lead too when he joined.

Italy NT under Lippi was the same old Italy NT we have always seen... score, park the bus and counter.  Only attacked when Italy were behind or against lesser teams.  Only Prandelli truly changed how Italy played.

Modern Italian coaches have become more attacking...  but the really successful ones are still cautious like Conte, Allegri ,etc.  Spalletti, Prandelli and the others play nice football, but don't win.  I don't really rate Mancini... but it's true that he managed to win some trophies.

[RealGunner]

Atm it doesn't look like Zidane has any identity. All he did was to give the team belief which they were lacking under Rafa and performances improved with the players' form.

Next season is a big test for him. How he plays and what he changes. He is still learning so mistakes will happen

Aug-Dec is crucial for him.

[S]

Zep ffs

I never would have imagines.

He's nothing like Pep.

Zippo has a very much calcio influenced style.

[S]

Double post

[RealGunner]

Nah. Calcio style has an art to it.

He is Mourinho-lite atm

[S]

Or a rich man's Pippo? (:

[futbol_bill]

Some posts here are hilarious...

BBC has always and will always be at its best when its set up for the counter attack.  Atleti is at its worse when it has to make play in tight spaces as they are also a counter attack team.

Does it not make sense to sit back and force Atleti to do what they are least proficient at?  Is it not even more common sense since it also puts your attack in its optimum setup?

The best teams in Serie A always play this way tactically since forever... same with Italy NT.  Namely, if you score the go ahead goal, force the opposition to attack you so you have the chance to counter attack.

If you think this isn't impressive... then I guess Ancellotti, Lippi, Trapattoni, Capello, etc. are shit tactical managers then  This is the exact blueprint that all these guys use

If we weren't clumsy with our finishing, we would have won this game 3-1 at least.

I know the point you are trying to make, in Italy coaches do whatever it takes to win, I'm a big fan of that. Football needs every style. That said, Ancelotti and Lippi definitely do not set up like that. They've never been known for their defensive tactics to the point of Capello, Trappatoni and apparently Zidane.

This degree of sitting back hasn't been prominent in top teams in Italy in a long time. Look at Ancelotti, Prandelli, Spalletti, Montella, Conte, Allegri, Mancini, etc. His setup was straight up like Di Matteo's or Trappatoni's.

He needs to grow and have more time to see what he can do. I hope he develops and one day coaches Juve if he is good and can do more.

Since when is 64% (in first half) possession, playing defensive. Sure we were very careful on defense but we weren't parking the bus!!!

[sportsczy]

Yeah... no style.  no reason.  no tactic.

He just man-managed his way to 21 wins, 4 draws and 2 losses all comps while his team scored 71 goals and conceded 19. The players figured it out themselves because we all know Ronaldo, Pepe, Ramos, Marcelo, etc. were choosing between becoming brain surgeons or playing football.

What in the world are you guys saying ffs.

[Kaladin]

Best French manager of all time

[Mr Nick09]

we are saying that he mainly man managed the team to an 11th CL because 1) he has failed to give any lasting imprint on this team tactics wise or even in style 2) i dont think this team with BBC as is can even be coached lol

[sportsczy]

clowns.

[S]

Zippo learnt well from his mentor Lippi

Already the best French manager ever thanks to calcio influence

[sportsczy]

Hidalgo was the best French manager ever just to throw that out there...

We'll see next season. I don't expect Madrid to play much differently. We'll just likely have pieces that fit better so we execute the same thing better.... so it will look better although the base tactics will be the same.

[rincon]

Carlo and Lippi very much played compact and relied on the counter attack in the big games...  that was the big problem with Carlo:  We didn't know how to control a game against the lesser teams.  Just looked uncomfortable and ineffective.  So we would drop a lot of points against teams we shouldn't.  Can't win the league that way.

But when we also started losing against the better sides... that was the end of Carlo.

Had the same issue at PSG... and he became the only manager under the Qatari ownership to fail to win the league.  He was handed a lead too when he joined.

Italy NT under Lippi was the same old Italy NT we have always seen... score, park the bus and counter.  Only attacked when Italy were behind or against lesser teams.  Only Prandelli truly changed how Italy played.

Modern Italian coaches have become more attacking...  but the really successful ones are still cautious like Conte, Allegri ,etc.  Spalletti, Prandelli and the others play nice football, but don't win.  I don't really rate Mancini... but it's true that he managed to win some trophies.

No just no.

Lippi's Italy controlled games that was not a counter attacking team. The played a 4-4-2 diamond with Totti-Toni upfront you don't get a slower, less counter attacking, duo than that.

I didn't say they weren't cautious, any good coach should be, but Conte or Allegri like you say, are not particularly defensive. The one game we parked the bus this season was the first half against Bayern in Turin and that was a disaster, its not his gameplan.

Are you seriously arguing that Zidane hasn't been a very defensive coach in the CL?

[sportsczy]

You don't need to be fast to counter attack.  If you leave 2 players on top and only defend with 8, those guys are already at the middle circle when you recover the ball.  Perrotta would release on the left wing with Toni and Totti trailing the play.  The idea wasn't to go full speed, which is one way to counter.  It was to go fast enough so that the defense wasn't completely set by the time Totti and Toni were in the attack zone.  

As far as Madrid's style....  you're not considering how it got there...

Leg 1 and 2 against Wolfsburg, we attacked like crazy.  We paid for it dearly in the first game and we were lucky to catch up in the second leg.

The issue was that Bale, Benzema and Ronaldo missed significant time due to injury.  So our attack was never settled.  Add to that, Isco and James were given big opportunities by Zidane early on and just looked terrible.

After 2-3 months of looking to play possession and attacking football with mixed results, Z assessed who the best players were, who was healthy and what would be the best gameplan to put the team in a position to succeed.  Since Casemiro, Vasquez and Carvajal were clearly better than Danilo, James and Isco...  we adapted to them.  They're not these technical guys that are super comfortable on the ball.

Zidane adapted to whatever style was most likely to lead to success against a particular team.  You don't realize how crap our midfield was defensively until we adjusted to help them out.  It was swiss cheese.

It was completely unexpected to me that Zidane could assess and adapt tactically so quickly to the strengths and weaknesses of the team.  We didn't have a set style because we couldn't... some of our guys are comfortable with possession while others are super direct. This group is complete patchwork thanks to Flo.  We set up in a 433 or 442 but were very flexible tactically in how we executed out of those.

I honestly don't think what he could have done differently or better.

[rincon]

Lippi playing that world renowned, extremely effective, slow-counter. Only team in football to exploit such an underrated tactic. Nevermind the fact that Perrotta wasn't even particularly attacking, you are just making up gameplans now. If anyone was releasing down any wing it was Camoranesi on the right wing, but lets not let facts get in the way.

I don't even understand what the point of all that justification about Zidane was. Being defensive is not a bad thing, Capello was a world class coach and he was defensive. Trapattoni even more so.

Why are we supposed to see Zidane as the lovechild of Zeman and Pep?

[zizzle]

but we were supposed to update the sack watch thread

[sportsczy]

The point was people are saying that Zidane has no tactical acumen whatsoever...  all he did was buddy up to the players and the players figured out what to do themselves.  Ridiculous.

And i can tell those who never played footy when they don't know that there are several ways to counter attack... and counter attack literally means to get into the attacking zone quick enough so the defense isn't set.  That's what we were taught.

Heck, Arsenal counter attacked with Giroud, Cazorla and Ozil the season before Sanchez arrived.  None of those guys are known for speed, especially Giroud.  The two technical guys would get the defense scrambled and either Giroud was the target... or Ramsey would trail the play and get the ball in an open area since the defense hadn't recovered and the CBs were occupied with Giroud.

France in WC 2014 destroyed Switzerland mostly on the counter led by Benzema, Giroud and Valbuena. None of those 3 were fast at all.

Anyhow...

[BarcaLearning]

Nice thread and interesting, intriguing to see what he does preseason etc...

Not sure how I should ask this, but what does everyone especially Sport think of Barca's style now? Does Enrique have a good blueprint? If so what is it exactly? Or is it mainly just relying on MSN and the talent of the team as some say? I think Enrique is not perfect and we get away with it in some games, but to say hes clueless is also unfair obviously...

[sportsczy]

I think Barca is very unique in that the same philosophy of play is practiced at every level going on 25 years now...  so the manager's job is really to adapt that philosophy to the current day squad.  As long as the club has success, this won't change.  Brazil NT was the exact same way until they started losing...  and then they changed (too much unfortunately for football).

I think Enrique is doing a good job. He's adapted the players to the style of play and sold them on their roles. For example, Messi agreed to take a back step in terms of being the go-to scorer when Suarez was struggling in the first half of last season. By allowing Suarez to be the focus on top, Messi compromised for the success of the team. That was not an easy sell and he did it. The team is well coached too obviously.

I think they expectation that you need to win everything or you've failed is ridiculous.  That's not how football works.  A treble followed by a double is more than great.

[BarcaLearning]

I think Barca is very unique in that the same philosophy of play is practiced at every level going on 25 years now...  so the manager's job is really to adapt that philosophy to the current day squad.  As long as the club has success, this won't change.  Brazil NT was the exact same way until they started losing...  and then they changed (too much unfortunately for football).

I think Enrique is doing a good job. He's adapted the players to the style of play and sold them on their roles. For example, Messi agreed to take a back step in terms of being the go-to scorer when Suarez was struggling in the first half of last season. By allowing Suarez to be the focus on top, Messi compromised for the success of the team. That was not an easy sell and he did it. The team is well coached too obviously.

I think they expectation that you need to win everything or you've failed is ridiculous.  That's not how football works.  A treble followed by a double is more than great.

I see what u mean, but players need to be sold in order for them to be willing and convinced right? I mean big player such as Messi sure, but others would do anything to get into the team I would have thought.

Yes I guess most ppl judge too much based on winning, when margin between winning and not is so small these days, or when the CL u have so many clubs wanting to win it every season but u can only have one, etc. Its probably more realistic to see the performance and level of the team to appreciate them in addition to just purely of trophies if that makes sense.

What do u think about new players he brought in though, like Turan?

And do u have an opinion about Mou @ Man U vs Pep @ Man C? Would be interested to hear it

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