Re: Venezuela on the verge of collapse

by rincon Wed May 01, 2019 10:32 am

Blue wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Lmao. These "decades of sanctions" where the US was the biggest importer of Venezuelan oil.

ugh operating at fractions of its capacity.

I have to get to work, but it is amazing you think you are in the right.

The irony of this. Do you know who Luis Tascon is and what he did in 2004? do you know what happened in 2003?

15000+ workers of PDVSA and associates where fired in 2003 following the general strike, and replaced entirely by loyalists who knew fuck all of engineering. As such the entire oil industry of Venezuela fell in disrepair and every year we lost production capacity.

Followed of course by the beauty that is Luis Tascon. Chavez changed the constitution and introduced the referendum revocatorio (referendum to change the president halfway through the term if enough people sign and vote on it). The people, obviously afraid, still signed to trigger the referendum in 2004. What was the result of that? Tascon released the should-be-secret vote in his infamous list and Chavez proclaimed that "everyone whose signature is in Tascon's list signed against the country". So he ordered everyone on the list to be fired from public office, works, and contracts. Purging everyone disloyal to him from the oil industry (for example) and preventing them to be even subcontracted for services. Deeply worsening our entire industry.

Tell us again on the causes of what has been occurring in Venezuela these last 2 decades. Cause I was there during the strikes in 2003, and my dad was prohibited to work as a construction contractor due to appearing in Tascon's list since he signed to trigger the vote.

This caused the first wave of emigrants from Venezuela as people couldn't work anymore, where the country lost all the expertise in oil and the industry decayed. PDVSA became the always-decaying checkbook of the regime.

by Blue Wed May 01, 2019 3:44 pm

You have unfairly characterized my position as Maduro sympathizer, i am far from that. I just don't live in this bad vs good binary world most people live in. Maduro is not a good person or president, in fact most people who wield power or seek power are a force for destruction. My position is when foreign powers seek to destabilize a regime and work to undermine them, they retaliate and resort to their worst to maintain their power.

On the other hand you have placed Trump,CIA, Bolsonaro, Bolton, Abrams,etc as your savior and liberator. Imagine thinking Trump who is looking up kids at the border, taking away health care from millions of his own citizens, and arming and supporting a genocide in Yemen is some savior and cares for the Venezuelans.

I strongly encourage you to do some research on the regimes Elliot Abrams has supported, and crimes that have took place under them.

Here basically 2 minutes of Trump wanting to take the oil.

by rincon Wed May 01, 2019 4:57 pm

Yes, better to let everyone die. You are against foreign intervention but not when it comes to Cuba and Russia running the country from top to bottom? Should everyone turn a blind eye then? Let Maduro, Putin and Diaz continue?

Better not to do anything, it's only Venezuelans in the end. Like I said before and you are saying it yourself now. You form a position on nothing to do with the actual situation, simply your previous agenda about other situations.

Imagine complaining that governments are sanctioning Maduro. You say you dont support Maduro yet what you suggest just lets him continue to do what he is doing. And we are sadly not even speaking about the regime being removed, but economic sanctions on a bunch of genocidal criminals, which I guess is still too much.

The time for inaction is long past. Venezuela doesnt survive another 20 years of this. People are starving to death, literally.

You said you were for people (venezuelans) determining their own fate. This is it, this is what Venezuelans want. So which one is it?

by Hapless_Hans Wed May 01, 2019 6:16 pm

How is a guy that DECLARES HIMSELF PRESIDENT the way forward?
Last I checked that's not how it works.

by rincon Wed May 01, 2019 6:46 pm

Last you checked you were wrong.

Chavez declared Maduro the president when he got sick before he died. Straight up like that, no elections, no due process, just a declaration to give Maduro the power before he died. A bunch of stuff happened in the following years. Finally this year in January Maduro's term ended, but last year he suspended elections (no chance he could win and we aren't in a democracy anymore). He just abolished the whole thing and decided to stay president.

As our constitution dictates, in the event of a power vacuum in the presidency, or other such constitutional crisis, the president of parliament becomes the interim president until free elections can be called. The president of parliament is chosen as it is the highest elected office after the president (the vice president is appointed by the president, not by the people).

The last elections we had were the parliamentary elections. The opposition of course won by a landslide 3 years ago, so Maduro stripped the parliament of power and refused to hold presidential elections anymore. As such since there were no presidential elections and the previous term ended, the president of parliament has to take action as the interim president. This year (it rotates every year) the president of parliament is Juan Guaido. So he is our interim president.

So parliament has been trying to do it's duty, with the support of the whole population, but against the army. So every time the people go march on the streets Maduro and co. shoot them down.

by Blue Wed May 01, 2019 8:06 pm

Why am i against sanctions even against Mudero regime? Because they hurt the most vulnerable. Bastards like Mudero will be fine unfortunately.

Economist Jeffrey Sachs: U.S. Sanctions Have Devastated Venezuela & Killed Over 40,000 Since 2017

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/5/1/economist_jeffrey_sachs_us_sanctions_have

by BarrileteCosmico Wed May 01, 2019 10:15 pm

Hapless_Hans wrote:How is a guy that DECLARES HIMSELF PRESIDENT the way forward?
Last I checked that's not how it works.

That's exactly how it works. Maduro ignored the constitution and ran a fraudulent election. Since he is not legitimately elected the role of interim president falls to the leader of the legislative. Just where are you getting your information?

Blue wrote:Why am i against sanctions even against Mudero regime? Because they hurt the most vulnerable. Bastards like Mudero will be fine unfortunately.

Economist Jeffrey Sachs: U.S. Sanctions Have Devastated Venezuela & Killed Over 40,000 Since 2017

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/5/1/economist_jeffrey_sachs_us_sanctions_have

Putting aside the fact that you're getting your analysis from Jeffrey 'shock therapy' Sachs, this is going about the issue in entirely the wrong way. If Maduro did a few very simple things like abiding by the constitution that Chavez wrote and allowing international election auditors this could have been entirely avoided. A semblance of republicanism would have gone a very long way. Instead he has created a human rights crisis where a country with one of the biggest oil reserves allows people to starve.

(Also btw the study is a joke. All Sachs did was go "this was the murder rate before sanctions, this is what it is now, therefore the difference of 40,000 is due to sanctions". Really it's absolutely laughable. He also claimed that hyperinflation only began in 2017 which is just hilariously misinformed).

BTW now Maduro doesn't even trust his own military enough to protect him so he has surrounded himself with the Cubans. He wanted to flee the country yesterday but the Russians stopped him. Who exactly is engaged in regime change again?

by Blue Wed May 01, 2019 11:09 pm

Actually they looked at how the sanctions causing shortage of medicine, vaccines, and food caused these deaths.

http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf

Even if you disregard those data, it is virtually consensus that sanctions hit the people much harder than the regime and elite you are trying to force out.

I at least try to cite my work, on the other hand you are posting unverified rumors coming straight from the Trump administration.

by Blue Wed May 01, 2019 11:51 pm

Am i being crazy to think that country is going through a huge economic turmoil, maybe an economic sanction is not the best thing to the people that is already vulnerable.

by rincon Thu May 02, 2019 3:34 am

Yes you are. The income from exports was never invested in the country under Maduro. The people are claiming for action, are claiming now for a national strike, the know exactly what it means and what shortages it will bring, but it's the only way short of another country stepping in.

You dont get the situation at all. This is all the fault of the regime, everyone knows that. The people will die should it continue, they know that and the are trying to do what they can for change.

There is no "economic turmoil" that will end should Maduro be in power. It will just get worse and worse like it has every year.

It is laughable to suggest otherwise and to blame the US here.

by rincon Thu May 02, 2019 3:44 am

Blue wrote:Actually they looked at how the sanctions causing shortage of medicine, vaccines, and food caused these deaths.

http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf

Even if you disregard those data, it is virtually consensus that sanctions hit the people much harder than the regime and elite you are trying to force out.

I at least try to cite my work, on the other hand you are posting unverified rumors coming straight from the Trump administration.

This is an absurd report. It says that the reason the Venezuelan economy did not recover in 2017 is because they were not allowed to continue borrowing money, on top of their huge debt, from US financial institutions.

Nothing to add to that.

by BarrileteCosmico Thu May 02, 2019 10:28 am

Blue wrote:Actually they looked at how the sanctions causing shortage of medicine, vaccines, and food caused these deaths.

http://cepr.net/images/stories/reports/venezuela-sanctions-2019-04.pdf

Even if you disregard those data, it is virtually consensus that sanctions hit the people much harder than the regime and elite you are trying to force out.

I at least try to cite my work, on the other hand you are posting unverified rumors coming straight from the Trump administration.

Man did you even read the link you provided?

AMY GOODMAN: How did you come up with the number 40,000 dead as a result of these crippling U.S. sanctions?

JEFFREY SACHS: Let me be clear: Nobody knows. This was a very basic, simple calculation based on estimates of universities in Venezuela that mortality had increased by a certain proportion after the sanctions.

Also your bolded part Laughing

Please go out of your way to talk to any Venezuelan. Like literally any you can reach. You are severely misinformed and should talk to people that have lived under him before saying things like "the sanctions are causing worst damage than maduro ever did"

by Blue Thu May 02, 2019 1:17 pm

BC please work on your reading comprehension, me saying the result of sanctions hurt the ordinary people much further than the regime is not the equivalent of "the sanctions are causing worst damage than maduro ever did."

I do not think you guys understand how sanctions work, you guys believe it is some magic bullet that hurts a regime. But it is not, the people that are much more affected are the ordinary people who are just barely living by. A simple understand of supply and demand, would lead to the understanding that those with much greater resources are able to overcome sanctions while the people on the bottom face much tougher restriction.

This is my last post, this is going nowhere. Well you two see the importance of toppling Mudero as the most important. While overlooking the consequences of an effort that is not placed on the welfare of the Venezuelans, but the motivation for those wanting to topple Mudero are doing purely for selfish reasons. You are backing known war criminals and track record of replacing one regime with even more tyrannical regimes. Certain catastrophe will follow on this path.

On the other hand my position has always been, that getting rid of Mudero is not the utmost importance. There should be efforts to do so, but the most important thing is the welfare of the Venezuelan people, US should do whatever it takes to lower the loss of life. Mudero is bad, but the path Bolton and Abrams is taking is a path that would lead further destruction. The evidence for this point of view is overwhelming.

by rincon Thu May 02, 2019 1:55 pm

2 pages of conversations reading his name and you still can't spell Maduro right. It's incredible how wrong you are, it doesn't get more contradicting than this post.

Let's bold some hints

Blue wrote:BC please work on your reading comprehension, me saying the result of sanctions hurt the ordinary people much further than the regime is not the equivalent of "the sanctions are causing worst damage than maduro ever did."

~~I do not think you guys~~ @Blue doesn't understand how sanctions work, you guys believe it is some magic bullet that hurts a regime. But it is not, the people that are much more affected are the ordinary people who are just barely living by. A simple understand of supply and demand, would lead to the understanding that those with much greater resources are able to overcome sanctions while the people on the bottom face much tougher restriction.

This is my last post, this is going nowhere. Well you two see the importance of toppling ~~Mudero~~ Maduro as is the most important. ~~While overlooking the consequences of an effort that is not placed on~~for the welfare of the Venezuelans, but the motivation for those wanting to topple Mudero are doing purely for selfish reasons. ~~You are~~@Blue is backing known war criminals and track record of replacing one regime with even more tyrannical regimes. Certain catastrophe will follow on this path.

On the other hand my position has always been, that getting rid of Mudero is not the utmost importance. There should be efforts to do so, but the most important thing is the welfare of the Venezuelan people, US should do whatever it takes to lower the loss of life. Mudero is bad, but the path Bolton and Abrams is taking is a path that would lead further destruction. The evidence for this point of view is overwhelming.

Gotta love clueless people telling Venezuelans about what's happening in Venezuela, and feeling intellectual for not condemning an oppressive genocidal regime. The regime kills 30000+ people every year, @Blue: don't touch them or their money! let him be and he will change! eventually whichever of you survives will finally understand..

by Young Kaz Fri May 03, 2019 11:10 pm

This attempted coup was never going to work objectively looking at it.

In the old days your rich parents pay for you to go to America and get an education, and the natives back home would bend the knee upon your arrival back.

Not so much anymore. Chavez's uncharismatic successor still has the memory of the big guy to keep enough people behind him to the point where any sort of foreign intervention would raise up the loyal masses to his aid. Hard to tell somebody in Caracas that Leopoldo "Silver spoon" Lopez has your best interest at heart.

Sad all around though. Hopefully Maduro does whats best for the nation and calls for a new election without himself on the ballot.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon May 06, 2019 12:46 pm

Young Kaz wrote:
Not so much anymore. Chavez's uncharismatic successor still has the memory of the big guy to keep enough people behind him to the point where any sort of foreign intervention would raise up the loyal masses to his aid. Hard to tell somebody in Caracas that Leopoldo "Silver spoon" Lopez has your best interest at heart..

Loyal masses Laughing

Yeah man this is why Venezuela has the 2nd number of most refugees in the world, 2nd only to Syria. Venezuela has turned into the homicide and hunger capital of the world and somehow you guys delude yourselves into thinking he is popular when Maduro lost the last free election held.

by Pedram Tue May 05, 2020 8:30 am

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/05/venezuela-detains-two-americans-allegedly-involved-in-failed-raid-to-remove-maduro

Lmao

by Young Kaz Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:39 pm

“It’s probably the clearest sign that the continued opposition effort to unseat Maduro has floundered that a committed stay-in-Venezuela leader like López has chosen to finally leave,” analyst @raulegallegos says.https://t.co/IoZ0bsTvbF
— Christine Armario (@cearmario) October 24, 2020

Looks like the US couldnt buy a revolution in a foreign country. Leopoldo ran off to Spain. Venezuela will continue to be inhabited by those who cant run off to their ancestors homeland when the going gets tough. Who live on the land, die on the land, and only sees the land as theirs. A big moment in Venezuelan history. May Nicolas use this moment to become better.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:18 pm

Here we go praising autocrats again Rolling Eyes

I'm sure the millions of Venezuelans who have left the country would've loved to stay, if it weren't for, you know, the hunger, lack of prospects or future, repression, torture and political persecution.

by Young Kaz Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:34 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Here we go praising autocrats again

I'm sure the millions of Venezuelans who have left the country would've loved to stay, if it weren't for, you know, the hunger, lack of prospects or future, repression, torture and political persecution.

None of which should have affected the rich son of Europeans who, among other things, had his parents send him to Harvard on the back of the labor of the natives. The Kennedy school for 1 year was over the median household income in this nation when he went in the 90s. How long would a person in the streets of Caracas have to work to attend that school?

Im no fan of Maduro either. The idea that people are born as betters simply by virtue of being is a thing that Maduro(Chavez) does not want to exist anymore. I said over a year ago:

Kazuhiko wrote:In the old days your rich parents pay for you to go to America and get an education, and the natives back home would bend the knee upon your arrival back.

Those days are gone in Venezuela. The hope is Maduro can see the blank check he has from his people now, and he can go about the work of continuing Chavez dream of a free nation in which all people, not just the son of Rich Europeans, can have a chance at making something of themselves.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:06 pm

Man you have no clue what you're talking about, again. Stop embarrassing yourself. You say things like "political persecution had no impact on the son of rich Europeans" when he was literally jailed for being an opposition leader, jfc...

by Young Kaz Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:13 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Man you have no clue what you're talking about, again. Stop embarrassing yourself. You say things like "political persecution had no impact on the son of rich Europeans" when he was literally jailed for being an opposition leader, jfc...

He was attempted to be jailed because he was the face of an international backed coup. This is confirmed by multiple sources...hell we tried to send over more mercenaries just this summer who were captured.

No nation on earth would allow this. Why should Venezuela allow it? Because hes a rich Harvard kid?

by Adit Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:14 pm

Betty the least we expect from you is to be hypocritical. You have basically fucked off to capitalism and lives a luxury life while praises the socialist poverty projects that is killing millions.

I haven't seen bigger hypocrisy than this. We have so many non residential indians who live outside in capitalist free market economies bcz the socialist state couldn't employ them but wouldn't shut up about need to establish communist state. My state was ruled half the time by communists and now we are the largest refugees all over the world for employment. States revenue comes from remittance from slavery in other countries. Destroyed families , destroyed life and simply dependant economy which is not sustainable long term.

by Young Kaz Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:49 pm

Adit wrote:Betty the least we expect from you is to be hypocritical. You have basically fucked off to capitalism and lives a luxury life while praises the socialist poverty projects that is killing millions.

I haven't seen bigger hypocrisy than this. We have so many non residential indians who live outside in capitalist free market economies bcz the socialist state couldn't employ them but wouldn't shut up about need to establish communist state. My state was ruled half the time by communists and now we are the largest refugees all over the world for employment. States revenue comes from remittance from slavery in other countries. Destroyed families , destroyed life and simply dependant economy which is not sustainable long term.

I live a "Life of Luxury" because I work hard every day of my life and skipped meals during the same period Leopoldo got mommy and daddy to use their blood money to send him to Harvard, and he came back and thought that entitled him a throne in the old country. Do you know how Americans were living in 1996 when he went there? Those of us not high off the hog with the dot com bubble? We lived very hard lives, and we couldnt throw thousands to send our kids overseas to party with the elite of the world while everything fell apart around us. Its not hypocritical. Leopoldo is a privileged boy who tried to get outsiders to overthrow his country because daddy told him he was special. Nobody else there thought he was, hence why he had to use the tax dollars I worked my ASS off to give to this country so they can waste it trying to make his royal highness the king of the poor in a nation that didnt want him, and still does not. If anybody gave two craps about him he would have been able to walk out the embassy with his head held high, but he ran at night like the agent he was. He never worked a day in his life. If you dont believe me look at his wiki page.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopoldo_L%C3%B3pez

At least jokes like Bernie Sanders had a job....once. Leopoldo was a rich boy who, never worked a day, decided he was destined to be king. Hes no king, but perhaps in a just world he'd meet the end of french kings.

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