Is Ibra the biggest choker in CL history?

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Post by RealGunner Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:25 pm

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Post by Adit Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:45 pm

Yes. I always said that
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Post by Neutropin Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:08 pm

In my opinion he is the most over rated player of this generation
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:25 pm

Something like 8 league titles and he is overrated Laughing

He is an all time great, someone on the same level as Van Basten, Platini or Ronaldinho

But yeah, he has never won a CL, neither have Ronaldo and Maradona btw
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Post by Thimmy Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:35 pm

I don't think he's overrated, at all. He's massively talented, and he's still performing on the highest level at age 34. I don't know why he always chokes in the Champions League, but I have no doubt in my mind that he's an all-time great. He may not have won a Champions League trophy, but I can't name many other top players who have brought success to several different teams, in different leagues.
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Post by M99 Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:33 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Something like 8 league titles and he is overrated Laughing

He is an all time great, someone on the same level as Van Basten, Platini or Ronaldinho

But yeah, he has never won a CL, neither have Ronaldo and Maradona btw


He is not on the same level of Van Basten. Van Basten had a far shorter playing career where he played better and won bigger trophies.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:57 am

Well, we're comparing careers and legacy. You could argue that Ronaldinho's best years were on par with anyone elses but we're taking the long view, and as such I think it's perfectly reasonable to compare MvB and Zlatan.
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Post by FennecFox7 Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:07 am

Ability wise, they're pretty similar. Like I said, he's 34. End of discussion
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Post by Guest Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:15 am

The man helped Milan win the league!!! :coffee:

If that doesn't put it all into perspective...

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Post by Art Morte Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:12 am

He's become such a luxury player. I've seen goalkeepers run more in a game than Zlatan last night.
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Post by BarcaLearning Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:49 pm

And in the end hes proven to be the CL flop. He blames it on the tactics as well Very Happy
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Post by giovanni_milan Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:04 pm

Look at some of the service he received in the second city match. It was piss poor.

In the first leg he should have scored another, but this week was not really up to him. PSG's midfield was completely nonexistent.

Lets say he had veratti, matuidi, and a healthy motta, the game would have been different

Maybe you can say PSG is a big choker, but Zlatan is not really at fault for this one. PSG lost because of their defensive mistakes and nothing else.

Zlatan could probably have played better in both ties, but i think its more than simply his fault.

Also on the whole "walking around" issue. He simply does not value pressure the same way many people do. He has said many times that as a striker you need to conserve your energy. So no he is not lazy -anything but- he is simply "conserving his energy."

Ya'll are quick to jump on one player who is part of a team of 11. This team of 11 let Zlatan down, not the other way around
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Post by Art Morte Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:29 pm

giovanni_milan wrote:
Also on the whole "walking around" issue. He simply does not value pressure the same way many people do. He has said many times that as a striker you need to conserve your energy. So no he is not lazy -anything but- he is simply "conserving his energy."


He was walking around on his heels when PSG had the ball in City's half of the field. You cannot service a striker like that.
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Post by giovanni_milan Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:09 pm

You absolutely can, theyre were times when he did make runs only to remember it was Raboit on the ball and not veratti

You likely should pressure more, but if you read his book youd understand his thoughts on that.

Modern strikers and the notion of pressing is more of a recent development, Zlatan is more like the strikers of the last generation.
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Post by Adit Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:42 pm

Conserving the energy is common among Messi,Ronaldo..Ibra etc and guess what? those are the same matches they play horribly. Modern game does not allow any one to conserve energy. heck Atletico and BVB went to CL finals based on not conserving energy, that is how important movement ,pressing game is in modern game.
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Post by CBarca Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:14 pm

Adit 100% correct here

The notion of "conserving energy" in a football match is a joke and if everyone gives their all every game, you can accomplish a lot more than having a star player be "more effective" or something by conserving their energy (and even that is debatable).

Atletico, BVB...look at the EPL this season, Tottenham and Leicester are at the top, why? Every player works like a dog
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Post by Winter is Coming Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:21 pm

Exactly, there is a reason why Pep got rid of him, because he wasn't offering that. Even in our successfully years, we did just that, didn't focus on conserving energy, but went all out.

And as said above whenever Messi/CR do that they have shocker, Messi these last 3-4 games has been either tired or conserving his energy and he has had a horror show.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:32 pm

The issue that Ibra is the same as Ronaldo in a way...  he's very very greedy in terms of being the focal point of the attack so none of the other forwards are put in good conditions for 99% of the games.  So when he does flop, nobody's prepared to make up the void.  For example, if he had allowed Cavani to get his share of plays so that he was sharp... maybe Cavani would have filled the void when needed.

In CL, you're playing the best teams.  Ibra can't be Ibra if he's not helped.  Since he shuns help, nobody is sharp enough to help leading to the failures.
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Post by Unique Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:53 pm

Did somone say ibra is not lazy. Dude makes berbatov look like a work horse. Very Happy
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Post by crius73 Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:01 pm

Ibra ended up scoring in three out of the four knockout games while Cavani, DiMaria, Lucas, and Pastore combined for a total of one goal over the four games. I can't see how people can argue Ibra was the one who failed the most.

Having Matuidi, Veratti, and Motta would of course have helped PSG but they are not the complete answer for PSG. Matuidi was one of the reason they drew 2-2 in the first leg, missplacing the pass that led to the first City goal and failed to pass Cavani when he was unmarked and had an open goal. The three of them also lack some attacking skills. None of them offer a long range shot, none of them can slide past the opponent like Iniesta, and none of them offer much of a goal threat going into the box.

But one of the main reasons PSG often fail in CL is their sloppy defence always giving away a couple of cheap goals. This is the fourth straight season they give away a penalty in the late stage of CL, but this time Aguero flopped it. They also lack a world class keeper. If Trapp and Hart had swapped teams PSG might very well have been the team in the semi final.

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Post by giovanni_milan Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:46 am

I find it hard to believe the trope that pressure is always necessary, I feel like that leaves room for only one style of play, a high press.

As I hope you'll note, that is simply not the only way to play, some of the best teams know exactly when to shift into gear after waiting the right amount of time.

Ibra may take this to a level that some styles wouldn't appreciate. However, in Serie A it worked magically. I don't want to get into league debates and what not, cause obviously that sort of style is the polar opposite of the Prem, where pressure is perhaps over valorized. One needs to look at the injury list of the some of the top EPL teams to see that maybe its not always ideal. Teams that press at a high level often deal with many injuries because they demand a lot of their players at a consistent level.

Either way, you dont necessarily need to pressure as intensely. Top teams like Dortmund and Athletico are great examples of why that works. If you look at Juventus, you'll note that is exactly the sort of style I'm referring to.

Back on topic: PSG lost this game, not necessarily Ibra and his "walking." A better organized defensive setup and a proper midfield would have made for a different game.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:55 am

The reason the others have become fringe scorers is the same reason Pato became a fringe scorer even before his injuries with Ibra...  he's so greedy that he doesn't allow any other player to shine as a secondary striker next to him.  First off, he doesn't run.  Second, he never makes a run to open up space for others because he doesn't run period Laughing.  Heck, he only starts jogging faster to make himself the scorer.  Finally, Ibra dezones into various areas making it difficult for others on the front line to figure out where they're supposed to go. It's ok to dezone if someone else is moving to cover the void. But he has no synergy at all with the others.

So in the end, he created an environment where he either ends up being the hero or nobody else can...  fantastic player.  But at the very highest level, you can't win like that.  You need to compromise some of yourself for the team.
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Post by rincon Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:57 am

I don't know how you got that Pato became a fringe scorer with Ibra... With Ibra he had his highest scoring season in his career. Ibra made everyone shine at Milan. Robinho had a career high as well, Boateng was beasting, Nocerino had a huge scoring season, even Emanuelson was scoring then.

I don't know what goes on at PSG but Ibra at Milan upped everyone's game. People were discrediting Allegri by saying how much Ibra impacted the team's performance and made players shine, who would later be complete scrubs after Ibra (Nocerino, Boateng, Emanuelson).

He is 34, that's the truth of it. That's all. At the rate he is going, in 6 years Messi will be a statue on the field. Age happens.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:23 am

Every Milan fan will tell you that Pato faded when Ibra came on.. became half the player he used to be before getting injured.  Did what he could so he got some goals with Ibra.  But he was marginalized and played out of position (like Cavani has at PSG). Cavani got 30 goals last season but he was obviously nowhere near the impact player he was at Napoli. Sometimes stats do lie.

And no, Pato's best season was 2008-2009.  Ibra joined Milan in 2010.
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Post by rincon Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:29 am

Every Milan will certainly not tell you that. Pato faded entirely because of injuries, not Ibra. Every time he came back he would run and dribble against half the team until he got injured again.

You can argue what his best season was. But saying that he became a fringe scorer because of Ibra, when he had his highest scoring season in Europe playing next to him, is just wrong.
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Post by rincon Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:35 am

Also, how was he played out of position? Pato plays both CF and left forward. Both of which were available at Milan.

Pato was the CF in Allegri's 4-3-1-2
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