Jesus, Gil, post this in the existing thread with the exact name instead making a new one :lol.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Jesus, Gil

srigooner wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:Jesus, Gil

No sri, gil is right to ask the question

Although he could have waited to see how the game ends that is JUST on before posting the table lol.

lol

"Time to start questioning whether he was good from the beginning."

Why would you question a man whether he was good from the beginning when it was Klopp who really guided and molded this side to their loft heights from the beginning. This was after the events of almost being bankrupt, Bayern giving them a loan, hiring (and subsequently firing) Doll after one of their worse seasons ever (not including this one). You make it sound like we're dealing with Brendan Rodgers.

Anyway, out of all the things to question, his actual ability is probably not one of them.

It is now time to take this thread, and Gil's first question, seriously though, if not his hyperbolic follow up.

More on this later, Dortmunds playing right now

Counterattacking team getting found out shocker. Not watching this game but against Arsenal it was clear that Arsenal were aware of their threat in behind and for most part kept their shape and rendered Mickymousetarian and the other pace merchants clueless with no space to run into. That's why Cruyffism will always prevail in the long run.

Fußball wrote:Counterattacking team getting found out shocker. Not watching this game but against Arsenal it was clear that Arsenal were aware of their threat in behind and for most part kept their shape and rendered Mickymousetarian and the other pace merchants clueless with no space to run into. That's why Cruyffism will always prevail in the long run.

Arsenal also played more long balls than normal to evade their high press.

Pace abused with Oxlade, Welbeck and Sanchez lol.

Arsene

Bottom of the table. lmao

Hapless_Hans wrote:It is now time to take this thread, and Gil's first question, seriously though, if not his hyperbolic follow up.

More on this later, Dortmunds playing right now

My prior reaction was obviously directed at the hyperbolic follow-up

sad stuff going on with bvb, but this is where klopp shows what he is made of, time to make some changes to the tactics, dortmund has enough talent they can make it back into the top 10 but top might be lost though

This is getting real.
It's not a fluke, Dortmund are the worst team in the league, period.
Forget about international places, with 11 points out of 13 games they're as of now heading for relegation.

And in that situation usually the manager is sacked. In most cases that is probably the most sensible thing to do too.
Dortmund is a top 5 team. What Klopp is achieving with them moment is inexcusable.

Now, Dortmund haven't sacked Klopp and probably won't. And as of now I would say that they are right.
Because Klopp's reign means incredibly much for the whole standing of the club, they are where they are because of him to a large part.

They are a very precarious situation, trying to establish as a top team while having to do with modest means, and Klopp's public international appeal is part of that effort.

So they are placing their hope that this can be saved with Klopp, as that would be better for the trajectory of the club.
However at some point somethings got to give.

A few things I think are going wrong

- Weidenfeller needs out. They are conceding too many goals from few shots. Now of course this isn't necessarily the goalie's fault but I don't care.
Weidenfeller is old, an insufferable Stinkstiefel, has declined and needs to be benched as a signal.

- they should never have allowed the prodigal sons to return. Sahin and Kagawa leave, bottle it elsewhere but are welcomed back with open arms. Bad signal to the other players, who have been at the father's side all those years helping with the farm. Corrosive for the spirit of competition and meritocracy.

- Klopp's game relies on running and intensity. Every successful game does, but his maybe to an extent too much. As a top team with lots of games to play but a modest squad, this might be costing them, either because they have bad results when they don't work as hard, or because of injuries.

- Fußball hits the nail on the head too.
Kloppmund's modus is the combination of counters and counterpressing. Opponent teams are adapting to them, as is always the case with trademark teams. What is Klopp's answer?
Our well-liked friends at Spielverlagerung have an article in German detailing how the discrepancy between CL and league results is down to the fact that BVB can counter in Europe while in the Bundesliga teams don't let them. To paraphrase, by hoofing and getting the ball on the wings, they minimize counter threats and also don't let them counterpress in relevant areas. http://spielverlagerung.de/2014/11/28/klopps-groesste-krise-teil-1-wohlfuehloase-champions-league/

Without their preferred game, Dortmund are clueless and vulnerable. They can't even organize a proper offside trap, as could be seen today. Bad work by Klopp.

So, to summarize for everyone who likes catchy slogans.

Klopp does not have a Plan B

Viva, what do you say

There's no way a team with players such as Reus, Hummels, Subotic, Mkhitaryan, S. Bender, Kagawa, Aubameyang, Grosskreutz, Piszczek, Schemlzer, Immobile and Sahin should be bottom of the table. Gundogan. Durm. Blaszczykowski. You should be able to get a seriously good & balanced XI out of those players.

That said, it's not easy when you lose your very best players. Just look at what a different, so much worse team we, Liverpool, are without Suarez and Sturridge. Dortmund have lost Götze and Lewandowski from their beast of a team and it's so often those one or two in-a-class-of-their-own players that make a difference.

However, the first point still stands. Dortmund have had money to spend and have even been able to buy some very nice players. They've pretty much have had the first pick after clubs like Madrid, Barca, Chelsea, City and United.

Furthermore, most of the players I mentioned are even in their prime years, around 25. I have a lot of sympathy for managers who are tasked with getting the most out of big name players that are on the wrong side of 30, but that's not the case here.

Dortmund's problems look first and foremost tactical, motivational and getting the best out of talent. That is the manager's responsibility.

Hans wrote:- they should never have allowed the prodigal sons to return. Sahin and Kagawa leave, bottle it elsewhere but are welcomed back with open arms. Bad signal to the other players, who have been at the father's side all those years helping with the farm. Corrosive for the spirit of competition and meritocracy.

That's a point, too, but then again, it's just two players, playing positions Dortmund have other good players to play, too. I rate Kagawa still, but Sahin couldn't cut it at Madrid and was disappointing at Liverpool and he probably got hyped up too much during his first Dortmund days. Kagawa is legit, though.

Klopp always had a good reputation for good new signings but his recent signings have been really poor. Just think about Ramos, Immobile, Mkhitaryan, Aubameyang even Ginter, these guys have been incredibly average though I expect Ginter to turn it around soon because he's still very young. Only good signings I can recall are Kagawa, Sokratis and Jojic in like two years, that's a really poor record. Combine that with even more average players somehow making the team like Kehl, Durm, Großkreutz and now unfortunately Weidenfeller who seems finished.

Klopp needs to change something because these players are no G*tze, Lewandowski, Sahin, Reus (last two who are barely playing nowadays). These players were technical players who had high work rate but these new guys are just average, players with high work rate and speed yet no technical ability.

I still expect Dortmund to do well in the CL and maybe Bayern but to win consistently you need players with high technical level and at best get in a CL place but they need to make big changes in the summer because I can't see Klopp turn this bunch around.

Art, it's not that I don't rate Kagawwa and Sahin, I just think that it's an odd thing to take players back no questions asked.
I could well imagine this affects team spirit in some way.

Of course, mainly I'm just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Art, it's not that I don't rate Kagawwa and Sahin, I just think that it's an odd thing to take players back no questions asked.
I could well imagine this affects team spirit in some way.

Of course, mainly I'm just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.

x)

Nah, I don't think it affects team spirit. Kagawa and Sahin could hardly have come back feeling or acting somehow superior to the rest of the squad. If anything, they were coming back needing to prove themselves all over again.

I don't think it is odd at all, in my opinion those returned players have been some of the best signings Klopp has made recently. The problem has been the rest, Ramos, Immobile, Mkhitaryan, Aubameyang - if you've never seen a bunch of average players playing together in attack for a big team then there you go! Not to mention Durm and Großkreutz, Kehl getting regular playing time

well Klopp signed them because they fit his plan, which is countering. And if they have the space they are just fine.
But if things don't go to according his plans, Klopp's the one who needs to find an answer.
Because you can't tell me Dortmund are last in the league because Mücke and Immobile are not good enough period. Paderborn, STUTTGART, BREMEN ffs

Another thought.
Things really going downhill since Hummels is captain

Of course it's Klopp's fault he signed those players in the first place, I did say as much. Like you said he needs to change something to make these players work, it's really frustrating to see these players struggle to control a basic pass let alone some harder ones, or actually take a shot which ends on target let alone a long decent shot from distance etc... as I said hopefully Klopp turns it around to get them in CL which means more funds for technical players.

CL? Are you kidding? They are last place.
This is serious, they need to stop thinking about CL places.

Hopeless-Hans "But Brendan Rodgers got you second last year. An amazing year. You should chop of your cock for him if he asked you to do it. He's a god and this results mean nothing. No criticism is justified"

You hypocritical pos

OT: It's worrying, really worrying where Dortmund is atm. But I can't see them getting relegated. Just can't see it at all. They may finish in the bottom half but I can't see anything worse than that.

First of all, hames, I didn't call for Klopp to be fired.

And even if I did, that'd be more like a Utd supporter demanding Rodgers be fired

The moment Dortmund is out of the CL I would start fearing for my job if I were him

Hapless_Hans wrote:First of all, hames, I didn't call for Klopp to be fired.

And even if I did, that'd be more like a Utd supporter demanding Rodgers be fired

I think only one pool fan on this board actually said they wanted Rodgers out and that was RedAlert from the absolutely beginning of Brendan's tenure. Most of us agreed he needed more time and were just criticizing our woeful form in the past 4 months but you just kept insisting on blowing steam up our asses.

Whatever this is, it's hypocritical of you.

Don't call me James wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:First of all, hames, I didn't call for Klopp to be fired.

And even if I did, that'd be more like a Utd supporter demanding Rodgers be fired

I think only one pool fan on this board actually said they wanted Rodgers out and that was RedAlert from the absolutely beginning of Brendan's tenure. Most of us agreed he needed more time and were just criticizing our woeful form in the past 4 months but you just kept insisting on blowing steam up our asses.

Whatever this is, it's hypocritical of you.

well I can't absolutely deny I'm hypocritical, but I'd say there are differences.
One difference being that Liverpool are in a completely new situation with the CL and the increased expectations.
Most people who are not Liverpool fans probably were expecting your season to be more difficult than some Liverpool fans who were hoping for a run to the European treble, bless you.
Another difference is that Dortmund's last 4 seasons were 2 times champions, 2 times 2nd place, now they are LAST.
If Liverpool had been last in the league when our discussion took place, you'd probably not have seen me insist on keeping cool and readjusting expectations as I did.