It's a really popular argument between fans these days that big transfers pay for themselves through shirt sales. And while on the face of it this might sound like a logical argument, the reality is much more complicated than one might think. There 3 major sources for revenue for football clubs are Match day, Broadcasting, and Commercial. A big signing such as James Rodriguez moving to Madrid will only have a marginal impact on a club that already packs a stadium. And while there have been cases where a big signing did effect ticket sales (Milan sold 7000 more season tickets the year they signed Ronaldinho) the impact of one particular signing cant really be quantified. Sticking with the case of Rodriguez we can assume that his impact on ticket sales is minimal.

Commercial is where a big signing will bring the most doe. The two major sources of commercial revenues are shirt sales and sponsors. A big name signing will attract more sponsors and command higher fees, while, theoretically speaking, the player helping the team win trophies will bring more sponsor money. How much will the signing of James Rodriguez add to the Real Madrid brand through his star power and on field presence ? i have no idea

"But Rodriguez will sell shirts, lots of them, he already sold 350K in 48 hours" some fan will say, but its naive to assume that all the revenues will go to Madrid like some articles have been claiming. Now it's hard to come by accurate figures on the cut teams get from shirt sales, but if Swiss Ramble is to be trusted, the average a club makes from 1 shirt is 12 euros. Not that much...so according to my calculator Rodriguez have made his club 4.2m by now. I'm not sure how much more will Rodriguez sell and how much his signing will add to Madrid's total shirt sales (1.2 million shirts a year) but its safe to say that he will pay for himself during his stay in Madrid. or will he ? taking the example of Ronaldo, who according to one crappy source sold 1 million shirts last year (pretty exaggerated but will go by it) Ronaldo brings 12m in revenues each year. But how much does it cost Madrid to keep Ronaldo around ? 20m a year ! so if Madrid is gonna go by the shirt sales logic alone (and ignore his significant sporting and commercial impact) they are better off without him.

so in conclusion...clubs make 12 euros for each shirt sold, the shirt sales revenues barely cover the salaries of the players, and it's really naive to rationalize any transfer using shirt sales

All the shirt sale revenue etc is just a bonus imo. I highly doubt the club relies on it to pay the transfer fee back or to pay the wages. But based on all the rumours, the revenue always looks like a decent amount.

It is a decent amount indeed, but if a player doesnt improve the team on the field it makes no sense to sign him based on money alone..

I had a similar post over at the James thread:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So I did a bit of research and found that according to the Swiss Ramble Barca makes 12 euros per shirt sold. Since I have no RM info to go on I will assume they make a similar profit.

Another thing to keep in mind is how many of these shirt sales can be attributed to James signing and how many people were going to purchase the shirts anyway? If the people that are purchasing the James shirts would've bought a Bale or Ronaldo one anyway then his signing can't really take credit for that. I have no hard numbers for this but for the sake of argument let's say that half the people that bought a James shirt would've bought a RM shirt anyway.

So 400,000 (shirts sold) * 12 euros (profit to the club per shirt sold) * 1/2 (new shirt sales attributed to James signing) = 2,400,000

Hardly paying himself off...

you'd be lucky to make half of the players yearly wages on shirt sales.
and that's if we believe some sketchy website with random numbers of how much shirts sold.

also for lols

chad4401 wrote:stop acting like a noob donuts, as long as a team is successful, shirts will sell and the player will eventually pay back at least 50-75 % of their transfer but hey lets act only the silly madrid think this

IMHO the entire argument rests on the flawed assumption that all shirt sales are to be attributed to the player on the shirt. I do not believe this is the case.

For example, let's say Cristiano Ronaldo sells 1 million shirts.
Do we really think, if he didn't play for Real Madrid, they would sell 1 million less shirts?

I put it forth, that if Ronaldo didn't play for Real, of those 1 million shit buying Real Madrid fans, 850,000 would have bought a Real Madrid shirt with Di Maria, Ramos, Modric, or Alonso on it. Most shirt sales are generated by overall brand recognition and club popularity, and people, I think, mostly decide to buy a Real Madrid kit, and then look at what player to get branded on the jersey, and aren't just following individual players.

At least that's how I buy 90% of my kits. I buy them because I love St. Pauli/Frankfurt/Germany, and then, after deciding I need this season's kit, I look at the players and spontaneously decide on whose kit to get. But I would've bought the kit anyway, it's just the player that I decide at the moment, there was never any doubt about me getting the kit in general.

I'm reading a book atm called white angels which is about David Beckhams transfer to and first season at RM. The chapter I read last night was about negotiating his transfer fee and at the time of the transfer they (Perez and the guy he sent to negotiate with united) estimated a return on investment of something incredible like 1500%. Although Beckham came very cheap, especially compared to James, CR, Bale etc, the argument still holds, I'll upload photos of the book when I get home

what does help the argument that I disagree on is mostly where a player comes from.

For example, the moment Chicharito moved to Man U, the amount of manu fans in Mexico rose dramatically, and along the lines every sports bar or mexico nt game i went to, the typical shirt I saw was chicharito whether man u or mexico jersey.

so I can see where people are coming from that they got a large influx of fanbase from a different country but I also from the many shirts I saw more then half were fake from some flea market, not the actual Man U brand but some bootleg.

zizzle wrote:It is a decent amount indeed, but if a player doesnt improve the team on the field it makes no sense to sign him based on money alone..

Agree with that. We really didn't need Rodriguez. Perez is most likely signing him due to hype and because he thinks he'll make him money. Only doing what's best for business.

"the average a club makes from 1 shirt is 12 euros."

where the rest go to manufacturer? and if they used some local brands like Roma did lat season they get more?

well the material costs money, then the sponsors take a chunk out of the % and then profit

Donuts wrote:you'd be lucky to make half of the players yearly wages on shirt sales.
and that's if we believe some sketchy website with random numbers of how much shirts sold.

also for lols

chad4401 wrote:stop acting like a noob donuts, as long as a team is successful, shirts will sell and the player will eventually pay back at least 50-75 % of their transfer but hey lets act only the silly madrid think this

Why are you laughing when he is right??

So Rinaldo brings 12 mill a year .. let's assume.. don't forget that 12 euro per year was in 2009..6 years ago. But let's ignore that.

12x7 years =78 mill euros.

More than 75 % of transfer fee.


James is selling at a record speed now... and real Madrid for 4.3 mill in just 48 hours. If we assume 8 mill a year. Over his contract... 8x6=48.

More than 50% of the transfer fee.. which is what he claimed.

that doesn't even cover Ronaldo's wages.
or jame's either.
your not making money back your sustaining the amount he costs for madrid at best yearly, which comes from a sketchy source as-well..
ronaldo sold 1m shirts last year?
so made 12m..
his wages are 20 per year
your -8m..
basic math

Donuts wrote:you'd be lucky to make half of the players yearly wages on shirt sales.
and that's if we believe some sketchy website with random numbers of how much shirts sold.

also for lols

chad4401 wrote:stop acting like a noob donuts, as long as a team is successful, shirts will sell and the player will eventually pay back at least 50-75 % of their transfer but hey lets act only the silly madrid think this

so cr didn't? , who is talking about wages? i said transfer fee

Who claimed we get back wages though?

He claimed we get more than 50% of transfer fee from commercials which is right.

The logic is not "player will cover all his wages and transfer fee".. that is impossible even for most marketable players.

If a club is getting back the majority of the transfer fee paid then it's a huge amount of money and nothing to sneeze at.

All of this brilliant math is ignoring the point BC and Viva already made. It's Irrelevant how many shirts your new star sells. What matters is how many additional shirts sold to people who weren't already going to buy a Real Madrid jersey.

The point he made is null.

The amount of "fans" who started watching Madrid just because Ronaldo moved here is huge. No way Do Maria,xabi,bale etc make huge impact like that...... Not even close. Stress on that not even close.

To be clear, I don't give a shit about shirts sales , just trying to express simple logic that I think some of you were missing.

Anyway I didn't even want james to transfer, cause its more problems than answers imo, it is what it is, don't act like we are all trying justifying his purchase with shirt sales ffs

Adit wrote:The point he made is null.

The amount of "fans" who started watching Madrid just because Ronaldo moved here is huge. No way Do Maria,xabi,bale etc make huge impact like that...... Not even close. Stress on that not even close.

Band waggoners? These big signings are great for the band wagon fans to just jump on and cheer (think of the Miami Heat; casual basketball fans were all of a sudden Heat fans because of the all star talent that joined them that one time when Bosh and James arrived). Pretty brilliant strategy to make money by bringing in the best, albeit it's proved that for some periods of time it caused the team to look shinny and new but often imbalanced in terms of it being properly built for the long haul (remember all those years they were getting knocked out in the first KO round of the UCL?). Even now they might be pushing out the guy that was doing all the defending for CR7 (Di Maria to bring in Kroos) and are likely to continue to bench the guy that was suppose to be the proper future star for them (Isco) cause of the hype James brought on him during the World Cup. It would of made more sense to get a defensive mid but they instead went with the big names regardless of how much "sense" it made to the team they already had (Barca does this shit all the time too, so I'm not trying to take jabs at them as if our shit don't stink. just pointing out the dumb things our clubs do sometimes to make that money and grow the brand)

I think most hardcore fans follow a club, or maybe support a set of clubs but for the most part will not buy kits purely based on players (I think for the most part bandwaggoners to that type of thing). For example, when Ronaldo went from Utd to R. Madrid; I seriously doubt the Utd fans that loved Ronaldo turned around and now bought his R. Madrid jersey because they loved Ronaldo. I bet that year they still went out and bought a Utd kit because thats the club they love. I'm a huge Xavi fan, but if he turns around and plays for City next year I won't buy his shirt. I will still buy a Barcelona shirt just as someone mentioned...I will simply pick and choose which player if any I will get branded on it.

I mean, look, the shirt sale argument is definitely flawed.
But shirt sales aren't really the significant money generating factors that are taken into account when signing a player...
I know, for instance, that Perez likes to include clauses in players' contracts that stipulates that the club owns up to 50% of a player's image rights. James - for example - has a pretty big deal with Adidas that will see the club recieve large sums of money.
Then, factor in that James' signing will open Real Madrid up to the Columbian market in a big way.
Obviously with guys like him in our team, we can negotiate bigger TV deals, perhaps raise the price of season and matchday tickets...
Then, there is the added possibility that he makes an effect on the pitch, and the better RM play, the more money they will make.
Truth is, calculating the money generated by signing a particular player is actually not possible to calculate, and even if it could be done, it would be an algorithm that none of us (I'm making an assumption here - apologies to Mathematical prodigies on the forum) would be able to calculate.

However, there is one basic truth. Real Madrid have no concerns when it comes to paying 80 ME for a player. The club is totally sound financially, and any objection to the sums spent on players stems from jealousy that your club cannot afford to spend that kind of money every summer.
Real Madrid's transfer budget is unprecedented and we don't need sugar daddy owners to sustain ourselves.
Modern football is about money and there is nobody out there that matches RM on those terms. Is it killing football in the sense of 'the love of the game' or whatever? Probably? Is Perez clueless when it comes to the game played on the pitch? Yes, he probably is. But football needs that team that we all love to hate...
And it just makes it even more sweeter when an underdog cash-strapped side triumphs...
Hell, I was actually quite happy that Atletico won la liga, because it was a victory for football.
If Real Madrid's existence bothers you so much, though, I suggest we create a "I hate Real Madrid" thread and just be straightforward with it, rather than sidestep the issue and try and disprove Real Madrid's fiscal stability... because that won't happen.

The sponsors make majority of the cash. lol

It's something ridiculously high like 80%+ or something straight to Adidas/Nike etc.

teamanarchy wrote:
However, there is one basic truth. Real Madrid have no concerns when it comes to paying 80 ME for a player. The club is totally sound financially, and any objection to the sums spent on players stems from jealousy that your club cannot afford to spend that kind of money every summer.
Real Madrid's transfer budget is unprecedented and we don't need sugar daddy owners to sustain ourselves.
Modern football is about money and there is nobody out there that matches RM on those terms. Is it killing football in the sense of 'the love of the game' or whatever? Probably? Is Perez clueless when it comes to the game played on the pitch? Yes, he probably is. But football needs that team that we all love to hate...
And it just makes it even more sweeter when an underdog cash-strapped side triumphs...
Hell, I was actually quite happy that Atletico won la liga, because it was a victory for football.
If Real Madrid's existence bothers you so much, though, I suggest we create a "I hate Real Madrid" thread and just be straightforward with it, rather than sidestep the issue and try and disprove Real Madrid's fiscal stability... because that won't happen.

The shirt sales logic has been used to justify almost any expensive transfer (torres and Neymar to name just a couple) but i used James to Madrid as my primary example because he's the flavor of the months. Plus im pretty jealous of Madrid's success and wish that i was as handsome and successful as Ronaldo so u can see where i'm coming from

zizzle wrote:

teamanarchy wrote:
However, there is one basic truth. Real Madrid have no concerns when it comes to paying 80 ME for a player. The club is totally sound financially, and any objection to the sums spent on players stems from jealousy that your club cannot afford to spend that kind of money every summer.
Real Madrid's transfer budget is unprecedented and we don't need sugar daddy owners to sustain ourselves.
Modern football is about money and there is nobody out there that matches RM on those terms. Is it killing football in the sense of 'the love of the game' or whatever? Probably? Is Perez clueless when it comes to the game played on the pitch? Yes, he probably is. But football needs that team that we all love to hate...
And it just makes it even more sweeter when an underdog cash-strapped side triumphs...
Hell, I was actually quite happy that Atletico won la liga, because it was a victory for football.
If Real Madrid's existence bothers you so much, though, I suggest we create a "I hate Real Madrid" thread and just be straightforward with it, rather than sidestep the issue and try and disprove Real Madrid's fiscal stability... because that won't happen.

The shirt sales logic has been used to justify almost any expensive transfer (torres and Neymar to name just a couple) but i used James to Madrid as my primary example because he's the flavor of the months. Plus im pretty jealous of Madrid's success and wish that i was as handsome and successful as Ronaldo so u can see where i'm coming from

Now you're just being patronizing.

It's been a very difficult couple years for Inter.
But, yes, you're right, the shirt sales argument is frequently cited... It is often cited as a blanket argument for the rise in commercial value.
Thing is, if Tohir offered 150 ME for C.Ronaldo tomorrow and he moved to Inter... it would be a bargain, and you know it. How much do you think attendance figures would rise at San Siro... how many shirts would you sell? How many 17-to-40-year-old women would stop supporting Real Madrid and become Inter fans? A fair few, I'd say...
You cannot put a value on the commercial dividends of signings like this...

Adit wrote:The point he made is null.

The amount of "fans" who started watching Madrid just because Ronaldo moved here is huge. No way Do Maria,xabi,bale etc make huge impact like that...... Not even close. Stress on that not even close.

They would sell less shirts if they didn't have Ronaldo/Bale/Rodriguez but it's not as if they wouldn't sell any shirts at all. If they sell 1m shirts with Ronaldo on the back they'd imo still sell at least 5-600000 shirts more with the other players on the back without him which would mean they'd gain something like 6m or so per year. That's still quite good though and of course having a player like Ronaldo isn't just good for shirt sales. You also get better sponsoring contracts, you sell more merchandising at all because people become club fans because of the player. Also more people watch the games on TV which should mean more money for the club aswell.

But if we're talking about shirt sales only - they certainly are extremely overrated by a good bunch of fans. Btw maybe it was posted already but I couldn't find the link to this swiss ramble article that says it's 12€? The number is more or less what I read somewhere else some time ago but I'd like to read the article.
edit: ok found it

teamanarchy wrote:

zizzle wrote:

teamanarchy wrote:
However, there is one basic truth. Real Madrid have no concerns when it comes to paying 80 ME for a player. The club is totally sound financially, and any objection to the sums spent on players stems from jealousy that your club cannot afford to spend that kind of money every summer.
Real Madrid's transfer budget is unprecedented and we don't need sugar daddy owners to sustain ourselves.
Modern football is about money and there is nobody out there that matches RM on those terms. Is it killing football in the sense of 'the love of the game' or whatever? Probably? Is Perez clueless when it comes to the game played on the pitch? Yes, he probably is. But football needs that team that we all love to hate...
And it just makes it even more sweeter when an underdog cash-strapped side triumphs...
Hell, I was actually quite happy that Atletico won la liga, because it was a victory for football.
If Real Madrid's existence bothers you so much, though, I suggest we create a "I hate Real Madrid" thread and just be straightforward with it, rather than sidestep the issue and try and disprove Real Madrid's fiscal stability... because that won't happen.

The shirt sales logic has been used to justify almost any expensive transfer (torres and Neymar to name just a couple) but i used James to Madrid as my primary example because he's the flavor of the months. Plus im pretty jealous of Madrid's success and wish that i was as handsome and successful as Ronaldo so u can see where i'm coming from

Now you're just being patronizing.

It's been a very difficult couple years for Inter.
But, yes, you're right, the shirt sales argument is frequently cited... It is often cited as a blanket argument for the rise in commercial value.
Thing is, if Tohir offered 150 ME for C.Ronaldo tomorrow and he moved to Inter... it would be a bargain, and you know it. How much do you think attendance figures would rise at San Siro... how many shirts would you sell? How many 17-to-40-year-old women would stop supporting Real Madrid and become Inter fans? A fair few, I'd say...
You cannot put a value on the commercial dividends of signings like this...

You bring a different argument all together. The low of diminishing returns will apply in this case and for a team like Real Madrid, adding just another star player will only result in a marginal increase. Now for a team like Inter, our roster has no stars and our most known player earned his fame by banging his friend's ex wife. A signing like Ronaldo will not only bring new fans and sponsors, but it will also improve our team tremendously and we'll be able to make that CL money we've been without for a years. On paper Rodriguez will be another pawn for Madrid and he doesnt even fit in their playing system. He does have star power but he's no Ronaldo, Messi or even Neymar so im not sure how much he'll improve Madrid on the commercial front.

PS: dont overestimate the effect of band waggoners, they do make a different but if Man Utd is the number one club in shirt sales in 2014 with their "not so impressive" team, there's much more than temporary fans and star players to the merchandising formula.