Harmonica, why would we generally even assume these stats are accurate and should be taken as the gospel?

Let's think about this systematically for a minute, shall we?

- these stats do not come into existence magically, mechanically, through god or some infallible machine. There are people somewhere capturing them, entering them.

- now let's ponder for a moment who these people might be, working for a football statistics site, watching games and entering data. Based on your tireless penchant and undying love for football statistics for example, they might possibly be people like you, Harmonica, that's not far-fetched to consider?

- so basically there's a good chance some of the people creating these stats are borderline lunatics with some kind of unhinged bias and outlandish convictions, who might in fact be typing all kinds of crazy numbers into their keyboards when watching the games.

- now don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with lunatics and their outlandish convictions, my point would merely be: why should we place trust and base our judgement on the statistics they create, when we can just as well watch the games ourselves and cautiously base our judgement on our own impressions?

lol at hans actually attempting to have a rational conversation with harmonica

the dude suffers from a terminal case of fanboyism

farfan wrote:lol at hans actually attempting to have a rational conversation with harmonica

the dude suffers from a terminal case of fanboyism

Havent you heard? messi never gets tired

Hapless_Hans wrote:Harmonica, why would we generally even assume these stats are accurate and should be taken as the gospel?

Let's think about this systematically for a minute, shall we?

- these stats do not come into existence magically, mechanically, through god or some infallible machine. There are people somewhere capturing them, entering them.

- now let's ponder for a moment who these people might be, working for a football statistics site, watching games and entering data. Based on your tireless penchant and undying love for football statistics for example, they might possibly be people like you, Harmonica, that's not far-fetched to consider?

- so basically there's a good chance some of the people creating these stats are borderline lunatics with some kind of unhinged bias and outlandish convictions, who might in fact be typing all kinds of crazy numbers into their keyboards when watching the games.

- now don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with lunatics and their outlandish convictions, my point would merely be: why should we place trust and base our judgement on the statistics they create, when we can just as well watch the games ourselves and cautiously base our judgement on our own impressions?

So, first get the insult post there, then try to defend your stupidity, then try to act like a knowledgeable, and now trying to route the dicussion somewhere else?

These are OPTA statistics, which mean they are as accurate as you can get. And Messi didn't have a turnover in the game, if you can't point the moment where he turned it over? They don't become innaccurate, just magically claiming how these are human made statistics. Do you even know what turnover is? It's when ball is turned over, by trying to dribble and loosing possession. It isn't a turnover, if the ball gets kicked out of you feet to your team mate, or side throw and so on.

I can't tell you enough how annoying it gets to talk teenybobbers like you, who have zero knowledge of football, statistics, debating, internet, life and probably everything else you can possibly list here.

I wasn't trying to act knowledgeable, nor route the discussion, I was merely trying to insult you as crazy and unhinged tbf.

Just watch the game again. After already 10 minutes, Messi was on the ball 3 times, 2 times of which he got dispossessed trying to dribble.
Not throw in, not to team mates, lost the ball.
Really couldn't be bothered to watch further, but there were much more incidents like that the longer the game went on, especially in extra time.

To spare you the effort of searching, here's a link.
Watch the play at exactly 9:00 minutes in the first half and tell me how that doesn't constitute a 'turnover' by the definition you just gave.
http://livefootballvideo.com/fullmatch/world/world-cup/netherlands-vs-argentina

Harmonica wrote:Do you even know what turnover is? It's when ball is turned over, by trying to dribble and loosing possession.

Exactly. Hans, you're a noob! Let me illustrate what jiopsi means.



I hope you get it now, Hans. Did you see anything like this from Messi in the Netherlands game? Probably not. So pls, listen to jiopsi.

Hans that could well be dispossesed tbh as he wasn't really dribbling at the moment.

Fußball wrote:

Harmonica wrote:Do you even know what turnover is? It's when ball is turned over, by trying to dribble and loosing possession.

Exactly. Hans, you're a noob! Let me illustrate what jiopsi means.



I hope you get it now, Hans. Did you see anything like this from Messi in the Netherlands game? Probably not. So pls, listen to jiopsi.

That's a bit more problematic though.. fake imo   

zigra wrote:

Fußball wrote:

Harmonica wrote:Do you even know what turnover is? It's when ball is turned over, by trying to dribble and loosing possession.

Exactly. Hans, you're a noob! Let me illustrate what jiopsi means.



I hope you get it now, Hans. Did you see anything like this from Messi in the Netherlands game? Probably not. So pls, listen to jiopsi.

That's a bit more problematic though.. fake imo   

Probably.

zigra wrote:Hans that could well be dispossesed tbh as he wasn't really dribbling at the moment.

lol. then just skip to 30 seconds before, his second ball contact at 8:35

Fußball wrote:

zigra wrote:

Fußball wrote:


Exactly. Hans, you're a noob! Let me illustrate what jiopsi means.



I hope you get it now, Hans. Did you see anything like this from Messi in the Netherlands game? Probably not. So pls, listen to jiopsi.

That's a bit more problematic though.. fake imo

Probably.

Misplaced pass  

Hapless_Hans wrote:

zigra wrote:Hans that could well be dispossesed tbh as he wasn't really dribbling at the moment.

lol. then just skip to 30 seconds before, his second ball contact at 8:35

Hans pls. That's really a misplaced pass

Bottom line is:

If this is WhoScored based on Opta stats and they claim Messi had 0 turnovers and 4 dispossessed in the game, then they are flat out wrong and ridiculously so.
By any measures, however you define turnover and dispossessed.
Flat out, plain wrong.

Now if they can be so grossly wrong in their basic numbers, why should ANY of their ratings or stats be taken seriously.

They shouldn't. q.e.d.

gnrfan wrote:For the disbelievers.

http://vimeo.com/91814367

The old messi..look at the fight for the ball at 22 s. Look at how he is so eager to take people on where today he'd make a sideways pass. For any newbs who started watching football the past two years, this is why messi is considered one of the best ever.

*To tune of Pink Floyd song Vera

LIO...LIO....what haaas becooomeee of youuuuuuu????

Ah, good times. Madrid vs Barca wars

farfan wrote:why did the mods let this clown back in after what seemed like a definitive ban ?
his meltdown and PMSing after the champions league final was legendary tho

I have an excellent idea. How about you let the mods and admins determine what is a definitive ban and what isn't?

Ive been wondering about this for a few months now.... glad to see the discussions on now.... its becoming so clear. Yet there isnt a definitive answer no matter how much we think and guess the reason, probably a combination of many reasons said.

I just hope he can rediscover his former self, otherwise I can only see him changing his play in order to produce his best, or just gradually decline a bit, still a top player, but not the god like being we are used to seeing....

[quote="McLewis"]

farfan wrote:why did the mods let this clown  back in after what seemed like a definitive ban ?
his meltdown and PMSing after the champions league final was legendary tho

-25% discussion of moderator actions

harmonica didn't do anything wrong in this thread tbf, so I don't see why it should be an issue.

posting stupid stuff is not a crime.

Dude threw up again :\

http://futbol.as.com/futbol/2014/07/13/mundial/1405287332_399701.html?u=6llj

Dude is clearly not taking care of his body. pep whipped his ass into shape. now he makes ozil look like nourridene morceli

How exactly do u know he isn't taking care of his body ?
Dude had problems growing up and has been playing at an insane level for 7 straight years ffs.
Stop making assumptions as if we know what's going on in his life.

Guys check whoscored's glossary, it says a turnover is "losing possession due to a mistake/poor control"

It says nothing about trying to dribble past someone. That is not exactly specific and yes it can become entirely subjective as to what that person deemed to be a "mistake" or "poor control". As far as can be seen they have NO stat for failed attempts at dribbling past someone. In the dribbles displayed in the gifs on this page, it's plausible the person recording the data did not perceive any of it to be "poor control" or a "mistake" by messi. They may have just thought it was a great tackle

I think the fame and money has got to his head. He does not want to run and play and likes a system like Ronaldo where all 10 players will be his slaves and do all the dirty work for him and he can do as he wants, walking around when he wants.

It is sad that FIFA desperately wants Messi/Ronaldo to monopolize the Top 2 when they are not the best now. Both Bale and Neymar will live in their shadows in a system which suppressed their ability.

Robben will never have the recognition and Suarez's antics will smear his character.

As long as FIFA supports both of them especially Messi with illegitimate means like the Qatar WC bid, these 2 will keep dominationg World Football by scoring against La Liga scrubs or against Iran or Bosnia or Nigeria

I think its clear now, absolutely, that he is just past his best. It is soooooo sad to witness it....it had to come some time, just sooner than we all thought.

Being playing with his style frm such a young age, with the physical requirement it needs to play the style, getting kicked and injuries over the last couple of years or so.... its taken its toll. Its hard to imagine him able to regain his best in terms of physique. Im pretty sure he will continue to be a top class player of cos, but we cannot expect the stuff he did in the past few years. His style will keep changing I think in order to cope with his aging body. Thats just normal for any footballer I guess....

Oh man...just so sad atm.... ((((((((((((

Giggity5313 wrote:Dude is clearly not taking care of his body. pep whipped his ass into shape. now he makes ozil look like nourridene morceli

lol

But Ozil ran and ran vs argentine though.

BarcaLearning wrote:I think its clear now, absolutely, that he is just past his best. It is soooooo sad to witness it....it had to come some time, just sooner than we all thought.

Being playing with his style frm such a young age, with the physical requirement it needs to play the style, getting kicked and injuries over the last couple of years or so.... its taken its toll. Its hard to imagine him able to regain his best in terms of physique. Im pretty sure he will continue to be a top class player of cos, but we cannot expect the stuff he did in the past few years. His style will keep changing I think in order to cope with his aging body. Thats just normal for any footballer I guess....

Oh man...just so sad atm.... ((((((((((((

Physically, he probably is past his best, but as a footballer? Don't think so. I mean, in the final, everytime he had the ball, he skinned past hummels and howedes as if they were not there.

And also, I dont think that Messi is lazy. Yes, he doeant run anymore, but he still does his defensive work. I mean, he was the forward who intercepted the ball thw most, eventhough players like Muller and Robben runs more, they still robbed the ball less than Messi..