Re: Valencia - FC Barcelona | La Liga Matchday 3 | Sun Sept 1st, 2013

by billy_gr Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:14 pm

Harmonica wrote:
billy_gr wrote:maybe... still wrong decision. he should have passed from th begining to tello. most likely he would have received the ball back to finish the job anyway
You can't know that, the defender was covering Tello and Messi probably thought there is a better chance onwards with Neymar, but the pass for Neymar gets blocked and he himself stumbles. Luckily the defender who was covering Tello actually forgot him and concentrated on Messi, like they usually do, and that's when Messi passed the ball. And Tello with right decision and concentration probably would have scored.

Next.

or he could pass it from the get go because that's pretty much what tello is known for, pace and exploiting of open spaces.
anyway... I am not concerned cause it didn't actually cost us the game but messi lately has been more oportunistic than he used to be

by The Franchise Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:13 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Dont see how Fabregas had a good game,let alone a great one.
As usual plays a couple of final passes and all of a sudden he had a great game.
He is a CM yet another game where he played as a 10 and was all over the place positionally.If someone can bring up his heat map,I would bet that his average positioning was in between the lines and near Valencia's box.

What this did was expose us badly defensively.free mentions the chances Valencia created.fab had a major role to play in them. Contributed nothing defensively and every time Valencia had a chance he was nowhere to be found helping out.Left Busquets and Iniesta with far too much to do.Not once covered Alves ( something xavi and Iniesta do very well covering the fullback).
Neymar didnt track back a lot.Messi didnt either.With Fab also not tracking back,just 7 players to defend(maybe even else if on a counter).Not good enough.Atleast 8 players have to help defend.
As a midfielder he has to put in a shift.And the less said about his pressing the better.There is a reason JDS was subbed in.
I am not impressed by his final passes and ocasional Hollywood balls.Give me Xavi and his tempo control,awareness and defensive contribution any day of the week.

On the game,very very impressed by Neymar.Excellent game throughout.Moved well,took on players,passed well and some lovely displays of skill.Guy looks a player.Busquets had a fantastic game.So did Valdes.Iniesta had a good game too.

Didnt think Messi had a great game.He was his usual lethal self in the first half and scored a hat trick in the blink of an eye.But very questionable decision making in the second half.Few times he could have put the game to bed by passing instead of dribbling/shooting but he didnt.Pedro had a shocker.Needs to hit the bench and Alexis take his spot.Thought JDS had a nice cameo too.Came in,kept the well and passed well.

Overall a game that should have been won comfortably but wasnt due to missed chances,poor defending and Postiga doing his best Marco van Basten impression.

Even though I consider you the most trusted opinion of all, not just on the forum but anywhere I know, we dont ALWAYS agree (which obviously is normal lol) but I think right now, we have almost identical opinions on this game, including Alva...I didnt want to say what you said about Cesc, because im here too often criticising him and I know it will be impossible for posters here (who's opinion and posts I actually value) to take my opinion as objective if I do so every time...especially when the majority think he had a very good or even great game.

Honestly, I was light in my post about him saying he "had a good game and was functional". I did feel he was functional and did well when he got the ball but....If im brutal, I felt like (and I dont know what your opinion on this is) to make the midfield work yesturday, Iniesta had to take a huge backseat compared to usual. Cesc was even in advance of Messi at times, I felt like Iniesta noticed (or already knew of) Cesc's aggressive positioning and played not only deeper than usual, but also played with less risk than usual.

by futbol Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:37 pm

The Franchise wrote:If im brutal, I felt like (and I dont know what your opinion on this is) to make the midfield work yesturday, Iniesta had to take a huge backseat compared to usual. Cesc was even in advance of Messi at times, I felt like Iniesta noticed (or already knew of) Cesc's aggressive positioning and played not only deeper than usual, but also played with less risk than usual.

Let's say this is true. Is that an issue? Instead of Xavi playing a reserved role, dictating tempo, doing the build-up etc. and Iniesta creating in the final third we now have Iniesta in a deeper role, doing the build-up etc. and Cesc creating. I don't see the problem tbh.

Here's Cesc's heat map by the way:

Valencia - FC Barcelona | La Liga Matchday 3 | Sun Sept 1st, 2013 - Page 4 BTGipIKIgAAmjic

Valencia - FC Barcelona | La Liga Matchday 3 | Sun Sept 1st, 2013 - Page 4 BTGipIKIgAAmjic

by The Franchise Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:51 pm

A problem? Well, I think Iniesta is a better player when he has more freedom and Xavi naturally sits back and does the unimpressive, simpe stuff so its works.

But with Cesc, now Iniesta takes on that responsibility and while its not terrible, I see Iniesta as quite a superior player to Cesc and think he is capable of much more.

So its two fold, I think one Iniesta individually is better when he has that freedom and two, I think Iniesta is better at Cesc full stop when both are given that freedom.

Not a problem, just a preference. Especially as Cesc has shown no consistency for us, let alone big game performances (something in question even at Arsenal for me) whereas Iniesta in big games we all have seen.

by danyjr Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:51 pm

I love Harmonica's GIFs. Give him a break.

by free_cat Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:02 pm

Cesc can't possibly play well in big games for us if he sits in the bench in big games except the odd unimportant Madrid game.

There's no way Cesc game can only be labelled as only good and functional, and I'm a Cesc disliker.

by The Franchise Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:06 pm

Sure, but as we spoke about before...if he isnt (and its a fact he wasnt at that time) performing against the medicore teams how could we possibly play him in the important ones?

As for the game, well thats what I saw. I dont think he had a special game by any means. I just didnt see that. I dont believe your defending him without reason, I think we just disagree on this game.

by CBarca Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:15 pm

Awesome.

I thought it was just because I dislike Cesc that maybe I wasn't seeing this performance everybody was fapping to. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought it was not great or anything. I said "good". I would agree with functional.

I said this earlier but I don't know if it was in chat here. The Cesc Iniesta Busquets midfield was functional-- but not optimal. That's the way I would describe it.

by Harmonica Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:37 am

billy_gr wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
billy_gr wrote:maybe... still wrong decision. he should have passed from th begining to tello. most likely he would have received the ball back to finish the job anyway
You can't know that, the defender was covering Tello and Messi probably thought there is a better chance onwards with Neymar, but the pass for Neymar gets blocked and he himself stumbles. Luckily the defender who was covering Tello actually forgot him and concentrated on Messi, like they usually do, and that's when Messi passed the ball. And Tello with right decision and concentration probably would have scored.

Next.
or he could pass it from the get go because that's pretty much what tello is known for, pace and exploiting of open spaces.
anyway... I am not concerned cause it didn't actually cost us the game but messi lately has been more oportunistic than he used to be

Yes, he could have tried to pass it faster, but it wasn't because he was ignoring Tello. And no he was just like he always is.

Still haven't heard or seen one viable example of "not passing for better for chances". Proud

by Donuts Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:19 am

Messi did no wrong if he were to score form that one situation, and lets be honest he usually does, no one would even be bringing up that instance.
in the end he did pass it to an open Tello so I don't see what the discussion is about.

Messi did miss some balls in the second half and to say if he didn't make those shots he would be to blame for the tie is a ridiculous statement, when he was the only one who scored this match.

by alexjanosik Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:42 pm

The Franchise wrote:
alexjanosik wrote:Dont see how Fabregas had a good game,let alone a great one.
As usual plays a couple of final passes and all of a sudden he had a great game.
He is a CM yet another game where he played as a 10 and was all over the place positionally.If someone can bring up his heat map,I would bet that his average positioning was in between the lines and near Valencia's box.

What this did was expose us badly defensively.free mentions the chances Valencia created.fab had a major role to play in them. Contributed nothing defensively and every time Valencia had a chance he was nowhere to be found helping out.Left Busquets and Iniesta with far too much to do.Not once covered Alves ( something xavi and Iniesta do very well covering the fullback).
Neymar didnt track back a lot.Messi didnt either.With Fab also not tracking back,just 7 players to defend(maybe even else if on a counter).Not good enough.Atleast 8 players have to help defend.
As a midfielder he has to put in a shift.And the less said about his pressing the better.There is a reason JDS was subbed in.
I am not impressed by his final passes and ocasional Hollywood balls.Give me Xavi and his tempo control,awareness and defensive contribution any day of the week.

On the game,very very impressed by Neymar.Excellent game throughout.Moved well,took on players,passed well and some lovely displays of skill.Guy looks a player.Busquets had a fantastic game.So did Valdes.Iniesta had a good game too.

Didnt think Messi had a great game.He was his usual lethal self in the first half and scored a hat trick in the blink of an eye.But very questionable decision making in the second half.Few times he could have put the game to bed by passing instead of dribbling/shooting but he didnt.Pedro had a shocker.Needs to hit the bench and Alexis take his spot.Thought JDS had a nice cameo too.Came in,kept the well and passed well.

Overall a game that should have been won comfortably but wasnt due to missed chances,poor defending and Postiga doing his best Marco van Basten impression.
Even though I consider you the most trusted opinion of all, not just on the forum but anywhere I know, we dont ALWAYS agree (which obviously is normal lol) but I think right now, we have almost identical opinions on this game, including Alva...I didnt want to say what you said about Cesc, because im here too often criticising him and I know it will be impossible for posters here (who's opinion and posts I actually value) to take my opinion as objective if I do so every time...especially when the majority think he had a very good or even great game.

Honestly, I was light in my post about him saying he "had a good game and was functional". I did feel he was functional and did well when he got the ball but....If im brutal, I felt like (and I dont know what your opinion on this is) to make the midfield work yesturday, Iniesta had to take a huge backseat compared to usual. Cesc was even in advance of Messi at times, I felt like Iniesta noticed (or already knew of) Cesc's aggressive positioning and played not only deeper than usual, but also played with less risk than usual.

Thanks dani.Likewise.And you are right that Iniesta had to take a more reserved role.He is a great player so he can do it but as you pointed out,he is better when he has that freedom.

by free_cat Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:55 pm

He hasn't been better than Fabregas with or without freedom at the begining of this season though, by far.

by alexjanosik Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:01 pm

Maybe so free.But I suspect that Iniesta is just fatigued after a long season and the Confed Cup.He will be back to his best.
And I disagree with your view that Fab is as good defensively as Xavi and Iniesta.IMO they are clearly better defensively.

by BarrileteCosmico Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:02 pm

Iniesta has fitness problems Martino alluded to. He has arrived to the pre-season very exhausted and I think he will do better as he regains this fitness through regular training and rotation.

by BarcaLearning Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:02 am

I think Cesc has been great for us for a long time now, I dont get the unhappiness or unsatisfaction ppl feel about him still, come on!

Valencia werent too great, they pressed us as usual, what about Postiga though, almost single handedly cost us 2 points, but Messi could have scored 4-5. Happy with our performance Smile

by Donuts Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:33 am

I think people are still mad because of Cesc, Thiago had to share minutes and because he had to share minutes we lost our young center mid.

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