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La Liga in Trouble?

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Post by McAgger Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:56 pm

Pain in Spain: La Liga in financial turmoil

TV companies are pulling the plug and players are heading for foreign fields
Pete Jenson

Madrid

Saturday 20 July 2013



Real Madrid face Bournemouth tomorrow in a pre-season friendly that pits a club likely to generate €500m next season against one likely to generate £5m. It is a financial mismatch of surreal proportions but it is nothing Real Madrid are not used to in La Liga.

While they and Barcelona come first and third either side of Manchester United in Forbes’ latest football rich list the rest of Spain is weighed down by a now completely unsustainable debt of €4,100m (£3,532m) and a talent drain that makes the new Manchester City striker Alvaro Negredo the 24th player to leave La Liga this summer.

Twelve of those 24 departing players have moved to the Premier League and there are now 34 Spaniards playing in England. Back in Spain, the national team coach Vicente del Bosque’s hometown club Salamanca has already gone bust and Andres Iniesta paid €240,000 to save his former club Albacete from a similar fate.

The two television companies who share the rights to show La Liga matches are both losing subscribers at an alarming rate and one is pushing for the first clasico of the season to kick off at midday as they try to get a better foothold in the Asian market.

Mid- and lower-table Premier League clubs are receiving a sizeable share of the new three-year £5.5bn TV rights deal and many have decided to buy Spanish but in Spain only the four clubs who have qualified for the Champions League have not had to cut their budgets drastically, with an overall decrease of 14 per cent on last season. Eight of the 10 sides who trailed the top two in last season’s final table have already had to sell their best player.

Atletico Madrid finished third but have a debt of around €180m. They sold Radamel Falcao to Monaco for €60m but will see a fraction of the money because they only part-owned him and have had to reduce their tax bill first before spending.

They had looked at the option of buying Negredo with the help of sports investment company the Doyen Group but as soon as Manchester City entered the race they had to look elsewhere, signing David Villa – a quality alternative but four years older.

Investment group participation, banned outside of Spain, is being encouraged because it is seen as one of the only viable ways of meeting the Secretary of State for Sport Miguel Cardenal’s demand for €1,000m to be wiped off the top two division’s debt over the next three years.

Finishing fifth last season were Valencia, who owe in excess of €300m – around the same as Real Madrid and Barcelona but with well below half their income. They wanted to sign Iago Aspas this summer but had no chance as soon as Liverpool stepped in.

Sixth-placed Malaga are in the hands of Sheikh Abdullah al-Thani. He spent €40m on new signings when he arrived in 2011, promising to build a new training complex. But the grass grows high on the proposed site, Malaga are banned from European football and the best players are sold off while others seek legal advice over unpaid wages.

Of the 24 clubs who have entered administration in the top two divisions in recent seasons, seventh-placed Betis are one of those now out. But they are still restricted to signings such as Cedric Mabwati from second division Numancia, whom they bought for the price of a cup of coffee – the 21-year-old from Congo had his buyout clause set at a symbolic €1.20.

Sevilla, having sold stars Negredo and Jesus Navas, will join Betis in the Europa League next season but only because Rayo Vallecano, who finished above them, were not permitted a Uefa licence because of their finances.

Further down the league, relegated Deportivo owe €156m and face the threat of extinction, as do 100-year-old Racing Santander, who fell victim to Ali Syed, the businessman who was blocked from buying Blackburn Rovers in 2010.

Amid all the chaos Barcelona and Madrid still take 50 per cent of the television money at around €140m a year but the two pay-per-view television channels which share broadcasting rights are losing subscribers to the point where there is little hope that national television revenues will jump to bumper Premier League levels any time soon.

Digital+ admits it has lost 15 per cent of subscribers in the last year and Mediapro, which has just closed down one of its spin-off channels, Marca TV, is 25 per cent down in the last two years. Cardenal wants television revenue negotiated jointly by all clubs from 2014 and paid through a League/Government body with the power to ensure state creditors are paid first –football’s current tax debt is €663m.

With domestic demand deflated, the new League president Javier Tebas, who has at least managed to sign a three-year sponsorship deal for the League with the bank BBVA worth €70m, wants to concentrate on promoting La Liga to Asia and the US, and a lunchtime kick-off for that first clasico of the season would help the cause. According to Deloitte, the Premier League made €2,900m in the 2011-12 season while La Liga made just €1,800m.

The league’s big two players have also seen their privileges reduced in the new economic climate. As reported by The Independent in April, the European Commission is investigating how Real Madrid received a piece of land worth €421,000 in 1998 from the city council as part of a land swap deal, and then used that same piece of land in 2011 in another land swap, with it revalued at €22.7m – a 5,400 per cent price increase that potentially constitutes illegal state aid.

The Beckham Law that once helped attract foreign stars as it put them in a lower tax bracket has gone, and banks no longer lend clubs money – Madrid were lent €150m in 2008 when they spent €250m on new players. These are changes that have made the purchase of Gareth Bale beyond the club’s reach this summer.

The financial crisis has its benefits for the national side, with so many players getting experience in other leagues. Only one player in Spain’s recent Confederations Cup squad – Roberto Soldado – does not either play for one of the country’s big two teams or for a side outside of Spain and Chelsea’s Cesar Azpilicueta admits: “We go abroad and learn new things and, as a consequence, there is really strong diversity in the squad.”

Neither is the exodus affecting the number of Spanish players in La Liga. While last season the Premier League’s top four clubs used only 29 English players, in Spain the number stood at 60 and the percentage of national players in La Liga has stayed at over 60.

Departing players’ places are often taken by young Spaniards produced by poorer clubs with no alternative but to develop their own talent – Sevilla signed 19-year-old winger Jairo Samperio from Racing Santander after selling Navas.

All of which is good news for Del Bosque. Until he remembers that his hometown team Salamanca – a club about the size of Bournemouth – went out of business this summer, and that without massive cutbacks throughout the league for the foreseeable future others will follow.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/pain-in-spain-la-liga-in-financial-turmoil-8721595.html
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Post by windkick Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:34 pm

They amount of debt that Spanish clubs have is incredible. How did pretty much EVERY single club in both the top two flights manage to get in so much of it? I would understand if like some clubs would over time fall in debt...but for almost all of them to fall in massive debt over the top two leagues? thats wild. Really irresponsible, the entire lot of them
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Post by Art Morte Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:41 am

It's interesting to hear that La Liga's broadcasters have been losing subscribers, because I've been wondering that for how long can the amount of money in football keep on increasing in current economic difficulties. It has to hit the ceiling - at least temporarily - at some point and even start coming down and this is the first sign of that happening that I have heard of.
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Post by Onyx Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:48 am

So why are they in debt? But then again aren't most clubs in debt? If no then why can't La Liga clubs be like EPL clubs in terms of their finance?

I guess one way they can hope to improve their finances is by hoping a foreign owner buys them.


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Post by The_Badger Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:56 am

Why the Hell is Sheikh Abdullah al-Thani, a millionaire allowing Malaga to suffer financial problems?

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Post by rwo power Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:05 am

Well, I can't say I'm feeling sorry for them when they now have to pay their taxes and the free spending comes back to them in insurmountable debts. The BL clubs were always ridiculed for their lack of spending power, but just spending like there is no tomorrow just isn't sustainable.
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Post by Adit Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:23 am

Actually those debt numbers are largely exaggerated but the debt problems are real.
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Post by jibers Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:11 am

La Liga is run like a joke Laughing

That's one thing the EPl has done well tbh

DAT MONIES..
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Post by Dnmac4 Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:02 am

Clubs in every league are in major debt. To single out La Liga is just lazy IMO.

There are a couple "big" clubs in every league (who still are in debt and operate at a loss) that can hold onto there players and are not selling clubs/feeder teams.

Basically if you are not owned by one of the super rich industry billionaires or have a club that basically has an agreement with state backed banks and is "owned by the fans" but really it's banks helping them to spend money when there in massive debt then your team has now become a selling team because of the threat of what your own debt can do to you or to generate money to help out your own debt.

Hell the top 3 earning teams in the world are Man U, Real, and Barcelona and they all operate at a loss and are in major debt yet it doesn't affect there day to day business one bit.

We keep hearing how much debt all these La Liga clubs are in and it really doesn't affect them very much at all. They are just now feeder teams like the rest of the teams not only in La Liga but in every other league too.

Basically in Spain, Real and Barcelona can buy any player in the league they want. In England Chelsea and Man City can pretty much force any team in the league to sell to them except for United. In France in the blink of an eye Lyon and OM got knocked off there perch and are feeder teams to PSG and Monaco. In Germany Bayern can buy anyone they want (see the Gotze and Lewandowski Fiasco) and these rules apply to all of Europe as well. They only players these teams can't buy are on one of the other super rich teams or a team will wait till the last year in there players contract to offload them.

I hate to say it but Italy has done a decent job keeping foreign owners out of the league but in turn now all of there clubs are feeder teams to the clubs I just mentioned plus a couple Russian clubs. Juve can now stand there ground but to a point.

Someone earlier on commented about Malaga. They are a great warning sign. Just because you have a mega rich billionaire covering up the debt your club is running at doesn't mean it will last forever or that your club is now suddenly run much better then La Liga teams.

Once your billionaire owner sells, gets bored, gets broke, or takes a stand against the city (like Malaga's owner) then you're club is in a heap of trouble no matter how much they win. Once that owner decides not to keep pumping hundreds of millions of there own money(not money the team is earning) on transfers and insane salaries that other teams couldn't dream of paying to a single player then it's all over for your club.

So please it's not just La Liga it's all of the football world. There's a reason people say "if you want to buy a football team do it for the love of the sport or the team, not to make money."
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Post by rwo power Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:09 am

Dnmac4 wrote:In Germany Bayern can buy anyone they want (see the Gotze and Lewandowski Fiasco) and these rules apply to all of Europe as well.  They only players these teams can't buy are on one of the other super rich teams or a team will wait till the last year in there players contract to offload them.
Last I checked, Lewandowski is still playing for Dortmund. And Götze - well, if Dortmund agree to put in a release clause in his contract, then they do get quite a lot of money for him - and as you might have noticed, they didn't exactly buy shrubs themselves either.
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Post by Dnmac4 Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:48 am

rwo power wrote:
Dnmac4 wrote:In Germany Bayern can buy anyone they want (see the Gotze and Lewandowski Fiasco) and these rules apply to all of Europe as well.  They only players these teams can't buy are on one of the other super rich teams or a team will wait till the last year in there players contract to offload them.
Last I checked, Lewandowski is still playing for Dortmund. And Götze - well, if Dortmund agree to put in a release clause in his contract, then they do get quite a lot of money for him - and as you might have noticed, they didn't exactly buy shrubs themselves either.

I don't really know what your argument is here. Bayern bought Gotze the week of there Champions League FINAL match. If that doesn't prove how much power Bayern have in Germany and Europe then I don't know what to tell you.

If you read my post, yes some teams can hold out for a year or so but they will end up selling, they have no choice. Do you think it's just luck that Dortmund's 2 best players both wanted to leave to there teams biggest rival in the Bundesliga and in Europe?

I mean Lewandowski has come out and said Dortmund are keeping him there against his wishes. Not to mention Dortmund were a selling club when they were winning the German League to the likes of United and Madrid.

It's just how it is now. Yes, you take the money and try to do the best business you can with it and Dortmund have done very very well in the market but it still hurts. Hell Dortmund's coach said losing Gotze the week of the final was more painful then the actual loss of the game.

I mean that should tell you all you need to know.
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Post by rwo power Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:27 am

Well, on the other hand, Nuri Sahin is back at Dortmund now, and interestingly Shinji Kagawa ist talking about wanting to return, too. So the scales are probably shifting somewhat. ^^
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Post by Dnmac4 Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:28 pm

rwo power wrote:Well, on the other hand, Nuri Sahin is back at Dortmund now, and interestingly Shinji Kagawa ist talking about wanting to return, too. So the scales are probably shifting somewhat. ^^

To a large degree Sahin came back because he failed and was much better in Klopp's system. I still think Kagawa given the chance can be a real success at United but it does look like Klopp's system is bringing the best out of these players.

Actually Dortmund have very similar story to Arsenal a few years back. Players play great in Klopp's system, eventually they move on and probably were better off staying as they were not nearly as good anymore. and they lose there 1 or 2 best players every year and replace them smartly in the transfer market.

Unfortunately you know how the story goes. If you keep repeating this cycle you get further and further away from a league title and the CL title. There actually is a big similarity between the two clubs.
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Post by juventus101 Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:37 pm

I didn't read the article, but basing my opinion on the title alone I would say yes they are in trouble. Barcelona are nowhere close to what they were a few years back and Neymar I doubt will change that. Real Madrid could be stronger than last year but two years ago was really their best chance theyll have for a while and they blew it. I also think Atletico will have a noticeable drop. Meanwhile, Milan is strengthening back into a powerhouse, Juve is already a powerhouse and is only getting stronger, and Napoli and Fiorentina are also getting stronger. Bayern is the best team in the world and has only gotten stronger since last season, and Dortmund seem to still be on the same level they were last season, with a legitimate argument for being the 2nd best in the world. Then Schalke has also strengthened. United and Arsenal have stayed the same personell-wise pretty much but are already very strong, and only time will tell but Chelsea and City have also seemed to have strengthened. Basically, all the top teams in the world have pretty much improved on last season except Barcelona and Real Madrid. Maybe its just me but that's what I think.
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Post by rwo power Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:39 pm

Dnmac4 wrote:Unfortunately you know how the story goes.  If you keep repeating this cycle you get further and further away from a league title and the CL title.  There actually is a big similarity between the two clubs.
I think it is different in the BL as there Dortmund currently appears to be the second power behind Bayern, while Arsenal has to compete with the monetary power of ManUtd, ManCity and Chelsea, which puts them much more at a disadvantage.
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Post by Dnmac4 Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:05 pm

juventus101 wrote:I didn't read the article, but basing my opinion on the title alone I would say yes they are in trouble. Barcelona are nowhere close to what they were a few years back and Neymar I doubt will change that. Real Madrid could be stronger than last year but two years ago was really their best chance theyll have for a while and they blew it. I also think Atletico will have a noticeable drop. Meanwhile, Milan is strengthening back into a powerhouse, Juve is already a powerhouse and is only getting stronger, and Napoli and Fiorentina are also getting stronger. Bayern is the best team in the world and has only gotten stronger since last season, and Dortmund seem to still be on the same level they were last season, with a legitimate argument for being the 2nd best in the world. Then Schalke has also strengthened. United and Arsenal have stayed the same personell-wise pretty much but are already very strong, and only time will tell but Chelsea and City have also seemed to have strengthened. Basically, all the top teams in the world have pretty much improved on last season except Barcelona and Real Madrid. Maybe its just me but that's what I think.

Uh are you serious man? Are you saying Shalke, United, City, Milan, Napoli, Juve and Arsenal are better then Madrid and Barcelona? Just to counter your little theory, Atletico kicked the sh** out of Chelsea last year and swopped Falcao for David Villa which really isn't a massive drop off if Villa is healthy.

And you don't think Neymar will strengthen Barca but all these other teams moves you credited them with will work but Neymar wont???? That makes no sense what so ever. You even claim that Real will be better next year. So what are you even saying?

La Liga had 3 teams in the last 8 in the CL and 2 in the last 4. Barcelona won La Liga with a record amount of points in a down year and only lost to the best team in the world. Please don't compare Serie A with La Liga, just don't. It's not even a debate.

And this comment below is just insanity,

"Basically, all the top teams in the world have pretty much improved on last season except Barcelona and Real Madrid."

Barcelona bought NEYMAR!!!! One of the best players in the world. Real have bought Isco and Illarramendi 2 of the best Spanish youngsters and you think Ac Milan and Shalke have done more to strengthen there teams???? And since when are Juve and Ac Milan powerhouses? Please tell us what they have done outside of Italy. Because I guarantee you that Juve team of 2 years ago would never in a million years walk through La Liga unbeaten.

I mean is this a joke?

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Post by rwo power Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:32 pm

@dnmac4

Well, I think it is a fallacity to equal buying expensive big names with an instant strengthening of a team. Let's take a look at Schalke - they got some players that are not big international household names or multimillion Euro commodities, but I think they have still strengthened their team considerably when compared with last season.

If you buy big stars, it is not said they will yield the desired effects, or how would you look at ManCity's European runs compared to the money they put in? This is especially fascinating when you compare that with Dortmund who are the opposite blueprint. Yes, Dortmund failed in the EL in 2010/11 and the CL in 2011/12, but they won the BL against the BL juggernaut and in 2012/13 they were both BL and CL runners up with a fraction of the investment of clubs like ManCity or the like.
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Post by Dnmac4 Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:43 am

rwo power wrote:@dnmac4

Well, I think it is a fallacity to equal buying expensive big names with an instant strengthening of a team. Let's take a look at Schalke - they got some players that are not big international household names or multimillion Euro commodities, but I think they have still strengthened their team considerably when compared with last season.

If you buy big stars, it is not said they will yield the desired effects, or how would you look at ManCity's European runs compared to the money they put in? This is especially fascinating when you compare that with Dortmund who are the opposite blueprint. Yes, Dortmund failed in the EL in 2010/11 and the CL in 2011/12, but they won the BL against the BL juggernaut and in 2012/13 they were both BL and CL runners up with a fraction of the investment of clubs like ManCity or the like.

I think it's a fallacy to think buying expensive names doesn't instantly strengthen a team. And LOL at bring up Man City they bought expensive names and went from a mid to lower tier team in the EPL to champions of the EPL passing over the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, and even United. Sure it took 3 years but that is no time at all when thinking of the mountain they had to climb. The year they stepped back and went for less expensive less well known names was last year and they had the worst year under there new project.

PSG did the same thing and left Lyon, OM and the rest of French football in there wake in an extremely short period of time. Chelsea did as well when Abromovich came in and they started to win titles and compete in the CL not just to make it but to win it. Malaga as well to a point and they made the champions league and advanced to the Semifinals after going out and buying the biggest names they could attract.

Man United (a move very similar to what Barca just did with Neymar) lost there grip on the EPL title so they bought the best forward in the League in Van Persie and pretty much every commentator, journalist, and football expert attributed that move as the key to how United won the EPL. In fact most of the same people say if City would have bought "the big household name" in Van Persie instead of the likes of players who could play for Shalke like Javi Garcia, Scott Sinclair, Jack Rodwell, then City probably would have won the league. I mean I can't think of a more relevant example of what we are talking about.

Buying 1 world class player is much better then buying 3 good players. Especially when you an upper echelon team and those 3 good players cant even get in your squad.

I could go on and on, Bayern bring in expensive names and now they have a monster of a team shelling out massive money for Martinez(record fee at the time), Robben, Ribery, Gotze(new record fee), Thiago, Mandzukic, Neuer, Gomez(record fee at the time). Don't fool yourself, Bayern put themselves in the position there in by buying "big name" "household names" to pair with there local talent.

You use Shalke as an example. Don't get it twisted, if they could attract the big household names in Europe they would try and buy them, they can't so they SETTLE on the players they bought. Sure it strengthened them but the poster said Shalke strengthened themselves and Barcelona and Madrid did not which is horse sh**.

Barcelona needs to bring in players capable of PLAYING and the same goes for Madrid. And that is my whole point which is sure the likes of Shalke brought in good players but they couldn't play at Madrid or Barcelona. So it doesn't matter what they do as they will not be on the level of Barca or Madrid as these two teams already have 5-10 players better then Shalke's best player.

The poster also names Napoli as getting better while Barca and Madrid have not. Napoli so far has lost the only world class player on there team and used the money to bring in players who can't start at Madrid in Callejon, Albiol, and probably Higuain. Are they going to be better? Maybe but who knows. I do know that Madrid got rid of 3 players who are not starters and used that money to buy 2 of the best young players in Spain who they can slot into there team and START. One of which in Isco the likes of Napoli and Shalke would give there right arm to be able to buy.

My last point, don't kid yourselves. If any of those teams named could actually attract Neymar they would easily trade the 2-3 good players they bought to buy him in a heartbeat. When the poster says Barca have not improved there team with the purchase of Neymar a top 5 player in the world and Madrid have not improved by buying Isco and Illarramendi then I can't really have a logical, reasonable discussion about it. It's just such a insane statement I don't know what to say.
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Post by rwo power Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:58 am

Actually you underestimate that BL fans prefer homegrown players quite a bit. If you look at the German forums, you'd see that quite a lot of people are very critical about the Thiago signing as this might mean that one or the other German player could get ousted. It is understandable that foreigners who support some team wouldn't care about that, but the German teams usually have quite a huge local support, and these would rather see some local boy in their team than more foreigners. For that you have also to take into account that the BL clubs are mostly fan-owned.

For German teams it is usually very important to have a big local face for the team - that's why the Schalke fans are still not over Manuel Neuer defecting to Bayern or the Dortmund fans about Mario Götze for the same transgression.

As for 1 star player vs 3 good players - well, IMO this is a risky trade. If the star player gets injured and there is no depth, then this can very well be a shot in your own knee.
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Post by iftikhar Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:13 am

Yeah I kept telling Napoli, don't buy Higuain for €40 million (that's 2/3 of Cavani money). Spread the money on 4-5 purchases (including two strikers).
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Post by juventus101 Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:08 pm

Barca bought Neymar and Real Madrid bought Iago and Illaramendi. Illaramendi was a good buy for Real Madrid but is not really gonna improve the squad much if at all. Neymar and Iago are awesome buys but completely unneeded. Were talking about two teams that break goalscoring records season by season. They don't have problems creating or scoring chances. Madrid in my opinion need a change of system and some players to fit that system which is why I said Illaramendi was a good buy even if quality wise he wont improve the team from what they had before. Barcelona need a top class centerback and a fullback and an eventual Xavi replacement. All of which were not addressed. Neymars not gonna stop top class attacks from scoring on Barca, and when they come up against other top teams such as Bayern and Madrid recently, its not as simple as scoring more than the other team. You need a defense.

And no of course I did not say Schalke and Milan for example are as good as Barca or Madrid, that would be ridiculous. I also didn't mean that Santana to Schalke for example was bigger than Neymar to Barca. That again would be ridiculous. But they addressed their needs better than Madrid and especially Barca has.

And about Atletico, Villa hasn't been the lone striker relied on for goals up front since the 2010 World Cup. That was 3 years ago, before (I believe multiple) surgery, and even then he had players like Iniesta, Silva, Xavi, etc supporting him. Here he wont have that. Not saying he needs that because he showed back on his days at Valencia that he can carry a team (even he had Silva and Mata there too but Villa was among the best players in the world back then), but hes not what he was, which is normal for when players get older. To think at his age and condition he could carry a team like a prime Falcao (who is also better suited to Atleticos style) is a bit farfetched.
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Post by Dnmac4 Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:48 pm

rwo power wrote:Actually you underestimate that BL fans prefer homegrown players quite a bit. If you look at the German forums, you'd see that quite a lot of people are very critical about the Thiago signing as this might mean that one or the other German player could get ousted. It is understandable that foreigners who support some team wouldn't care about that, but the German teams usually have quite a huge local support, and these would rather see some local boy in their team than more foreigners. For that you have also to take into account that the BL clubs are mostly fan-owned.

For German teams it is usually very important to have a big local face for the team - that's why the Schalke fans are still not over Manuel Neuer defecting to Bayern or the Dortmund fans about Mario Götze for the same transgression.

As for 1 star player vs 3 good players - well, IMO this is a risky trade. If the star player gets injured and there is no depth, then this can very well be a shot in your own knee.

It doesn't matter what the fans prefer as obviously Bayern could care less.  They went out and spent big money on big name players and were rewarded for it.  Plain and simple.  People can be critical about the Thiago signing all they want, if he turns out to be world class they will shut there mouths pretty quickly.  I don't hear fans booing Neuer anymore.

The fact is of course Bayern want German players, they produce some of the best talent in the world, BUT they want to have the best team in the world so they go out and have spent a massive amount of money on players from all over the world.  They really don't care where they buy there players as they know they will always get whatever German player they want no matter what is going on in the league (see Gotze, Neuer, Lewandowski).  People get mad at Madrid and Barca for pillaging the rest of the league for the best players, Bayern has been doing it for just as long.

And Spanish teams have just as many local players in there teams as German teams.  That isn't something special or important only in the German league.

Hell Barca can field a team of all youth products and beat most teams in La Liga.  Bilbao only takes players from there region on there team.  Lower level Spanish teams are almost all Spanish.  So I mean I don't know why you think that Germans wanting German players is any more relevant then Spanish people wanting Spanish players.  

And as far as trading 1 world class player for 3 good players, if you run your team and make moves thinking every player is going to get hurt you will never have the guts to make the moves needed to be great.  Sure Neymar can get hurt, but so could all 3 other players.

If you keep trading world class players for a couple decent to good players that is pretty much the best way to take your team from the cusp of greatness to just being glad to qualify for the champions league.

There is a reason Barca, Madrid and Bayern have all won there leagues in the past 3 years and have all been in the final 4 of the champions league for the past 3 years in a row.  They have the most world class players.  It's not a conspiracy or something that's difficult to figure out. They don't settle for a couple decent players they go out and get the best players.
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Post by Dnmac4 Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:13 pm

juventus101 wrote:Barca bought Neymar and Real Madrid bought Iago and Illaramendi. Illaramendi was a good buy for Real Madrid but is not really gonna improve the squad much if at all. Neymar and Iago are awesome buys but completely unneeded. Were talking about two teams that break goalscoring records season by season. They don't have problems creating or scoring chances. Madrid in my opinion need a change of system and some players to fit that system which is why I said Illaramendi was a good buy even if quality wise he wont improve the team from what they had before. Barcelona need a top class centerback and a fullback and an eventual Xavi replacement. All of which were not addressed. Neymars not gonna stop top class attacks from scoring on Barca, and when they come up against other top teams such as Bayern and Madrid recently, its not as simple as scoring more than the other team. You need a defense.

And no of course I did not say Schalke and Milan for example are as good as Barca or Madrid, that would be ridiculous. I also didn't mean that Santana to Schalke for example was bigger than Neymar to Barca. That again would be ridiculous. But they addressed their needs better than Madrid and especially Barca has.

And about Atletico, Villa hasn't been the lone striker relied on for goals up front since the 2010 World Cup. That was 3 years ago, before (I believe multiple) surgery, and even then he had players like Iniesta, Silva, Xavi, etc supporting him. Here he wont have that. Not saying he needs that because he showed back on his days at Valencia that he can carry a team (even he had Silva and Mata there too but Villa was among the best players in the world back then), but hes not what he was, which is normal for when players get older. To think at his age and condition he could carry a team like a prime Falcao (who is also better suited to Atleticos style) is a bit farfetched.

Illarramendi will improve Madrid as Alonso is on the down side of his career. They have needed another option there for a while and Alonso cannot play a couple games a week anymore and be at a near world class level.

It's funny, you say you want Barca to buy someone to give Xavi a break and eventually replace him but when Madrid do that exact same thing for Alonso then it doesn't improve there team.

And you must not have watched many Barcelona games last year as Barca needed Neymar badly. Sanchez and Pedro were/are shells of themselves and Neymar slots in perfectly plus he can give Messi a rest if Messi will let him. Teams will not be able to triple mark Messi anymore and leave Sanchez and Pedro unmarked when Neymar is in the game. Not to mention if you can buy the best prospect in the world it's generally good business to do so. Especially with your best player coming back off an injury.

Saying buying Isco and Neymar is unneeded in just plain wrong I don't know how else to say it. Buying two of the top 5 young players in the world is not "unneeded" and both will bring huge contributions next year. I don't know why you think buying backups would be a better move. Both teams will eventually bring in some backup players but it's smart to get the cream of the crop first before you worry about filling in your bench.

As for Atletico, they have proven to be able to replace world class strikers. Whether it be Fernando Torres, Diego Forlan, Kun Aguero etc etc They will replace Falcao and if Villa is healthy he will give them a strong goal return as he always does in a full season in La Liga. Also saying Villa wont have a good supporting staff to feed him the ball at Atletico is just short sighted. Atletico has a very strong team and especially a strong midfield (Ask Chelsea) with the likes of Koke and Turan among others.
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Post by rwo power Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:28 am

Dnmac4 wrote:It doesn't matter what the fans prefer as obviously Bayern could care less.  They went out and spent big money on big name players and were rewarded for it.  Plain and simple.  People can be critical about the Thiago signing all they want, if he turns out to be world class they will shut there mouths pretty quickly.  I don't hear fans booing Neuer anymore.
Manuel Neuer is the Nr.1 of the German NT, so that's mostly fine with the Bayern people (and there are still Ultras who sulk about his signing), moreover, they had no adequate Bavarian alternative. As for you don't hear fans booing Neuer anymore - you clearly haven't seen Bayern away at Schalke XD

Dnmac4 wrote:The fact is of course Bayern want German players, they produce some of the best talent in the world, BUT they want to have the best team in the world so they go out and have spent a massive amount of money on players from all over the world.  They really don't care where they buy there players as they know they will always get whatever German player they want no matter what is going on in the league (see Gotze, Neuer, Lewandowski).  People get mad at Madrid and Barca for pillaging the rest of the league for the best players, Bayern has been doing it for just as long.
Well, there is also a difference between Bayern München fans and fans of either Schalke or Dortmund. The latter are as a majority very passionate about their clubs, while Bayern mainly have a hardcore ultra scene, which is considerably smaller than the majority of fans, many of which jumped on the bandwagon when Bayern proved to be more successful than for example the Revier clubs. So it is natural that the Bayern fans are not as adamant about that. BTW, there is a difference between signing players when there is no local alternative, and to sign players to kick out the local boys.

Dnmac4 wrote:And Spanish teams have just as many local players in there teams as German teams.  That isn't something special or important only in the German league.

Hell Barca can field a team of all youth products and beat most teams in La Liga.  Bilbao only takes players from there region on there team.  Lower level Spanish teams are almost all Spanish.  So I mean I don't know why you think that Germans wanting German players is any more relevant then Spanish people wanting Spanish players.  

Sure, but as I don't follow the Spanish fan scene closely, I prefer to comment on the stuff I know about Smile If I don't mention the above it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I leave the comments about that to people who are more knowledgeable about that, and there are sufficient Barca and Real specialists at GL Very Happy

Dnmac4 wrote:And as far as trading 1 world class player for 3 good players, if you run your team and make moves thinking every player is going to get hurt you will never have the guts to make the moves needed to be great.  Sure Neymar can get hurt, but so could all 3 other players.

LOL, it's not as if Barca has only one world class player, so if one of several of these get hurt it is less problematic, that if, say, Van der Vaart oder Adler get hurt for the HSV...

Dnmac4 wrote:If you keep trading world class players for a couple decent to good players that is pretty much the best way to take your team from the cusp of greatness to just being glad to qualify for the champions league.
I'm more thinking of teams that fight against relegation and if these put everything in one bnasket, this can very well lead to the ruin of a club. Not every football club is a Real or Barca, you know. A league consists of more than one or two teams, and these have to set up competitive teams, too, that help them survive. After all, this is the point of the OP's post that says La Liga is in trouble.

Dnmac4 wrote:There is a reason Barca, Madrid and Bayern have all won there leagues in the past 3 years and have all been in the final 4 of the champions league for the past 3 years in a row.  They have the most world class players.  It's not a conspiracy or something that's difficult to figure out.  They don't settle for a couple decent players they go out and get the best players.  
And still there is a club like Dortmund in the BL that came back from almost bankruptcy in 2005 and managed to fight their way up without the big money and signing the most expensive players and still they won the BL twice, once of that even the domestic double, plus they ended in the CL final all of that within the last three years, too.
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Post by juventus101 Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:53 pm

Doesn't matter if Pedro and Sanchez sick when Messi is scoring 60+ goals per season. With possibly the best player to ever live on their forward line and then solid players like Pedro, Sanchez, and Tempo there around him, as well as one of Fabregas or Iniesta as well, they simply don't need Neymar. I would also say Gotze is easily the brightest talent right now but that's another story in itself, but either way, they needed a defender and bought a forward. That's like Juventus going out and buying only Ogbonna but without Tevez and Llorente. This transfer window would've been a failure. Eben though Ogbonna is a great CB with a lot of room for improvement, hes not gonna solve our problems.

As for Alonso and Xavi, they both need replacing. Again Barca failed at this so far and even sold their best chance they already had at a replacement (unless Fabregas reverts back to that role). Illaramendi is a good signing as I said before but I personally am just a doubted that he'll be able to make the cut. Isco is a good signing only because hes a bright talent and can also fit a possession game. Not because the attack needs help because it definitely does not. Problem is, Isco will need to show that he suits the counterattacking game otherwise hes just a waste too. Which is just one of the reasons I think Madrid need a change of style.

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