Re: The counter argument to ''Ronaldo makes up for it with his scoring ''

by halamadrid2 Fri May 24, 2013 5:33 pm

Zealous wrote:Ronaldo isn't even that great a defender btw lol him tracking back doesn't exactly guarantee an attack is stopped.

well we can all agree on this eco smile

I still think if we can replace Alonso with somebody like Kondogbia we will just be fine like we were when Alonso was great

by Zealous Fri May 24, 2013 5:39 pm

Adit wrote:
Zealous wrote:
not robots who all attack and defend with no defects. That's not realistic at all.

May be we can learn from Bayern and BVB that whole team defending and attack like robot can take you to CL finals?

That is exactly what was special about them,defend as a team and attack as a team...while here we are with our '' defend with out ronaldo attack with only ronaldo'' tactics ...it is not productive enough against the big sides.

Fck Bayern and fck BVB. One beat us on penalties and one took advantage of a complete horror show from a CB coming back from injury and still only just went through in the end.

We have our defects yes but the true reason behind not getting past these two were cases of us letting ourselves down in the first leg.

Can we improve? Hell yeah and I hope we do. Will we improve by pointing fingers at players and asking them to do everything? No, that's not realistic.

And don't bother trying to sell me the idea that all Bayern and BVB players are perfect either. It's just a case of covering the weaknesses players with the strengths of others. The team is greater than the sum of it's parts here.

sportsczy wrote:He would ask to leave in a heartbeat. I remember that when Higuain got his back hurt and that we hadn't bought Ade, CR7 was asked if he would play CF. His answer went something like this.... i could. I have done it in the past. But i don't feel that it takes advantage of many of my qualities and i'm sure Mourinho agrees with me.... something like that.

I don't think CR7 is into sacrifice unless it's very short term if at all lol.

Don't agree with that. He might give his opinion on the matter but I guarantee you he'd still do it and that's assuming he isn't given a clear convincing argument that he should.

CR believes in winning and it's hard to talk to him about sacrifice when he is the first to training and the last to leave, gets all the media scrutiny and has to do all the offensive work because Di Maria and Ozil can't be bothered to go a full season without having dips in form.

by Adit Fri May 24, 2013 5:42 pm

Z your whole argument can be summarized into one sentence

'Ronaldo is carrying whole the attack on his back so he doesnt have to track back'

Lets agree to disagree. Football isnt a game that was 20 years ago. Gone are the days of back 6 defending and front 4 attacking. Big sides arent going to stand and watch at Ronaldo not tracking back...the Lahms,Pizcaceks,Dani Alves's will always try to take advantage of that and has already taken advantage of that.

Ronaldo doesnt make up for his defensive game with his offensive game in big games at least.

by sportsczy Fri May 24, 2013 5:47 pm

He's into winning? When he wouldn't pass the ball to Higuain his first year because he was jealous, it was because of winning? When he won't take himself out of a game because he loves his stats despite rest being the wise option, it's because of winning? When he says "i'm unhappy" during our crisis in the early part of the season, it was because of winning?

Come on dude. CR7 is about himself first and winning is a part of it.... but he will never, every sacrifice a part of himself for the team happily. He would do it for a game here and there. But long term, he's most concerned about the CR7 brand. And there's nothing wrong with that... i accept it. He's not alone in thinking that way. The only shame of it is that his game is built around him taking 400 shots a year lol.

by Zealous Fri May 24, 2013 5:51 pm

Adit wrote:Z your whole argument can be summarized into one sentence

'Ronaldo is carrying whole the attack on his back so he doesnt have to track back'

Lets agree to disagree. Football isnt a game that was 20 years ago. Gone are the days of back 6 defending and front 4 attacking. Big sides arent going to stand and watch at Ronaldo not tracking back...the Lahms,Pizcaceks,Dani Alves's will always try to take advantage of that and has already taken advantage of that.

Ronaldo doesnt make up for his defensive game with his offensive game in big games at least.

That's not all I'm saying so stop trying to be condescending. I'm not just disagreeing with you either. I think you're flat out wrong on all accounts. Ronaldo has won us more big games than he's cost us and this season he hasn't cost us any.

by Zealous Fri May 24, 2013 5:55 pm

sportsczy wrote:He's into winning? When he wouldn't pass the ball to Higuain his first year because he was jealous, it was because of winning? When he won't take himself out of a game because he loves his stats despite rest being the wise option, it's because of winning? When he says "i'm unhappy" during our crisis in the early part of the season, it was because of winning?

Come on dude. CR7 is about himself first and winning is a part of it.... but he will never, every sacrifice a part of himself for the team happily. He would do it for a game here and there. But long term, he's most concerned about the CR7 brand. And there's nothing wrong with that... i accept it. He's not alone in thinking that way. The only shame of it is that his game is built around him taking 400 shots a year lol.

You're not exactly CR's biggest fan and I'm not exactly a hater so it's unlikely we'll agree on where his priorities are. Chances are it's somewhere in between and even then it doesn't change the fact that if he is asked by Carlo to adjust his role he will do it.

Ancelotti is smart, he'll make the best use of Ronaldo and I'm sure Cris will happily oblige.

by sportsczy Fri May 24, 2013 5:57 pm

I'll just add that every superstar automatically creates uber-dependence. I mean look at France NT in 2002 WC when zizou got injured. It's absolutely normal.

The only thing i wish CR7 would do is cut down his shots a bit and allow our CFs to get into the action. If he's off, we might need them. That's all. Not sure if Carlo can do that.

As far as his defense, i don't think it's a problem once Alonso is replaced by Kondogbia for example. That takes care of it.

by Zealous Fri May 24, 2013 5:59 pm

sportsczy wrote:I'll just add that every superstar automatically creates uber-dependence. I mean look at France NT in 2002 WC when zizou got injured. It's absolutely normal.

The only thing i wish CR7 would do is cut down his shots a bit and allow our CFs to get into the action. If he's off, we might need them. That's all. Not sure if Carlo can do that.

As far as his defense, i don't think it's a problem once Alonso is replaced by Kondogbia for example. That takes care of it.

I agree with that completely.

by alexander mahone Fri May 24, 2013 6:03 pm

Ronaldo is great and all, but him carrying the whole attack in an overstatement. He's productive in what he does because he's at the end of the attack the most and that's suit him. But that's not carrying the whole attack. When was the last time he scored a goal out of nothing or made something happened out of nothing by himself when it's mattered? What's he gonna do vs United without great Di Maria's cross? Or without Ozil and Higuain helped him scored a winner later? Out of 4 matches vs Dortmund, he scored 2 goals and again thanks to chances served on plate by Higuain and Ozil. In the last game vs Dortmund he missed chances just like Higuain & Ozil but he didn't do anything else while Higuain & Ozil created chances for each other and the later set up our 1st goal in that game too. He definitely didn't do things by himself in attack. Same thing vs Atletico in final and he managed to get stupid red card in such important match, that's kind of disappointing for player we should've been able to count on.

About defense I think he did great defensive work when we played Barca a while ago, he's capable of it if required imo.

by Onyx Fri May 24, 2013 6:07 pm

Zealous wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:
Zealous wrote:

That would be silly.

I don't think tracking back is an optional thing. It's part of the tactics.

I'm not saying it is or isn't but ALWAYS tracking back is just not wise. It means you're not taking advantage of a possible gap in behind if a fullback goes up. There is a reason that fullbacks don't ALWAYS go up.

Having your main attacking outlet go farther away from goal wouldn't make sense, especially since you have more to gain from Ronaldo staying up than lose from Ronaldo following a player back to goal. It's all about turning potential threats into potential opportunities.

Ronaldo tracks back just fine as is. He's gotten much better at it too and yet I don't see people (besides Hala) mentioning Ozil or Benzema for their lack of work rate.

Defending with 2 banks of 4 is a normal thing. It's something that should always happen when a team is defending. At least with a 4-2-3-1/4-4-2 etc formation.

If the LW for example doesn't defend, it could lead to a 2 (fullback + winger) v 1 (our fullback) situation. That has happened and we have conceded goals vs Bayern/Dortmund due to it.

I think when we're defending, our priority should be defending. I know if Ronaldo doesn't track back it'd be easier to counter-attack, however defending should come first. Also it's still possible to counter-attack with Ronaldo tracking back. There has to be other ways.

by Adit Fri May 24, 2013 6:13 pm

alexander mahone wrote:

About defense I think he did great defensive work when we played Barca a while ago, he's capable of it if required imo.

I have noticed it as well. he is capable of it then why not ? He has track backed successfully against Barca then why not against other big teams?

There will be only 3 or 4 big games and that is all we are asking..track back and contribute in both ends in those 4 games.

but looks like he just doesnt care about track backing unless it is barca..

Jose Mourinho once said

''His best game yet was against osasuna when he worked hard to get back and help the team defensively and he didnt score in that match''

by Zealous Fri May 24, 2013 6:16 pm

alexander mahone wrote:Ronaldo is great and all, but him carrying the whole attack in an overstatement. He's productive in what he does because he's at the end of the attack the most and that's suit him. But that's not carrying the whole attack. When was the last time he scored a goal out of nothing or made something happened out of nothing by himself when it's mattered? What's he gonna do vs United without great Di Maria's cross? Or without Ozil and Higuain helped him scored a winner later? Out of 4 matches vs Dortmund, he scored 2 goals and again thanks to chances served on plate by Higuain and Ozil. In the last game vs Dortmund he missed chances just like Higuain & Ozil but he didn't do anything else while Higuain & Ozil created chances for each other and the later set up our 1st goal in that game too. He definitely didn't do things by himself in attack. Same thing vs Atletico in final and he managed to get stupid red card in such important match, that's kind of disappointing for player we should've been able to count on.

About defense I think he did great defensive work when we played Barca a while ago, he's capable of it if required imo.

No one has said Ronaldo has been the amazing in every game. But I'll be damned if he hasn't been our best performer this season. It's up to the others to carry the burden at times when he can't in some games. I don't think that's happened at all this season, at least not nearly enough.

Anyway I hate blaming individual players. It's silly and ignores to many bigger issues. If we can figure out a way to have the squad play to the best of their ability when it counts then we'll be A OK.

by alexander mahone Fri May 24, 2013 6:25 pm

Adit wrote:
I have noticed it as well. he is capable of it then why not ? He has track backed successfully against Barca then why not against other big teams?

There will be only 3 or 4 big games and that is all we are asking..track back and contribute in both ends in those 4 games.

but looks like he just doesnt care about track backing unless it is barca..

Jose Mourinho once said

''His best game yet was against osasuna when he worked hard to get back and help the team defensively and he didnt score in that match''

It's not only Ronaldo though, in Dortmund 1st leg everyone was too casual when Dortmund on the ball as if we're playing Zaragoza, and only made challenge when it's too late. It's a shame because we know how great the team could be to play defense in collective in Barca matches. How could they're not doing it in our biggest game this season is beyond me too. Probably it's true they thought it's easier like Pepe said, they underestimated Dortmund and got punished. Mou's fault too for that, maybe he himself thought it would be easier too, and not preparing them as meticulously as when he set up them vs Barca.

by FennecFox7 Fri May 24, 2013 7:22 pm

Sure ronaldo doesn't track back. I agree that is a problem

But what baffles me is how you guys act like the rest of the team helps out in defense Laughing

, bar di maria, please give me some attacking players who actually track back Laughing

by halamadrid2 Fri May 24, 2013 8:04 pm

higuain

by Onyx Fri May 24, 2013 8:10 pm

It's more important the wingers track back than the AM or CF.

by alexander mahone Fri May 24, 2013 8:16 pm

Higuain works as hard as Di Maria in defense. Benzema & Ozil track back, but both don't really throw their body on opponent that hard.

by Zealous Fri May 24, 2013 8:23 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:higuain

by alexander mahone Fri May 24, 2013 9:48 pm

Zealous wrote:
No one has said Ronaldo has been the amazing in every game. But I'l be damned if he hasn't been our best performer this season. It's up to the others to carry the burden at times when he can't in some games. I don't think that's happened at all this season, at least not nearly enough.

Anyway I hate blaming individual players. It's silly and ignores to many bigger issues. If we can figure out a way to have the squad play to the best of their ability when it counts then we'll be A OK.

I don't debate his case as best performer, just don't think he's carrying the team by himself. I'm probably splitting hairs here, but for all differences Ronaldo has made, mostly with those goals, he didn't do that by himself out of nothing, there were others did their part on that helping him. To me carrying the team was like Bale scoring a game winning beauty out of nowhere almost week in week out, or something like that. I cannot equate doing a role effectively, although it's an important one, with carrying the whole attack.

Earlier this season our players were taking turn having a dip in form, and when Ronaldo had it I remember different players were taking turn stepping up one way or another at different point in time, like Higuain did in first couple of games. It's those time when they're all looked off at the same time that really cost us, it's never just a doing of two or three players.

Agree on 2nd paragraph, especially on too problematic season like this one.

by guest7 Sat May 25, 2013 6:48 am

[quote="Adit"]

alexander mahone wrote:
''His best game yet was against osasuna when he worked hard to get back and help the team defensively and he didnt score in that match''

That's basic psychology 101 brah, that quote has no relevance to the discussion.

I've seen Mou do this before, he tends to say stuff like this to convince the player to track back more often. Mou wasn't serious about it being his best game or it even being a good game from him.

Personally I think CR not tracking back is due to tactics. He has shown that he can track back in big games, but he doesn't do it so he could launch quick counters. Our CFs has to track back for him instead, so he can make the runs.

by Adit Sat May 25, 2013 8:56 am

CF who is around the box track back for a winger? it doesnt even happen in fifa let alone in real life lol.

Even if it is psychology it does show that Mourinho wanted Ronaldo to track back Laughing

, the quote clearly shows that Mou never give Ronaldo a not track back status.

by sportsczy Sat May 25, 2013 10:57 am

CFs cannot track back in place of a winger. It's impossible on a consistent basis just because of where they are on the attack. Also, you are never trained to defend like that if you're a CF.

by FennecFox7 Sat May 25, 2013 5:37 pm

Ronaldo has all the qualities to literally be a monster CF. I actually think benz on the wing and ronaldo at CF could be interesting. Benzema on LW impressed me whenever I saw him

by StevieRayVaughan Sat May 25, 2013 11:06 pm

Reading your comments, it clear to me that most of you dont play football at a competitive level. And I mean competitive as in participating in tournaments in 90 mins matches against youth players from professional teams. I have myself participated in quite a few of those, having won one of those tournaments, I understand the trade off between deciding to track back at all times, or just focusing on attacks. I normally tracked back at all times as a winger, but that takes a huge toll on you. Now I dont have the fitness level of Ronaldo, but for someone who has to start every game, even he cant do it consistently. The reason I make this assumption and bring this issue is because if you are a offensive winger and you have to track back at all times, then you lose that extra bit of pace that might be needed in couter attacks. Ronaldo works extremely hard offensively, chasing overhit balls, running to get into end of crosses, however he wont be able to do tht effectively if he starts tracking back a lot. Messi is similar to Ronaldo in that he chooses when to track back, because you need to conserve energy for short bursts as a attackers and as a winger. You cant have the same Ronaldo if he tracks back, you will lose a bit of his attacking prowess.

My point is not that Ronaldo shouldnt track back for you guys, but that it is well-thought decision taken by the coach and Ronaldo himself, to focus more on attacking aspects. Its not because he is lazy, but he has to wisely choose when to attack or defend. Atleast, as a amateur footy players myself, thats what I think is happening.

by Zealous Sat May 25, 2013 11:08 pm

Stevie you are a legend tbh. Congrats on teh copa win btw eco smile

by Le Samourai Sun May 26, 2013 9:33 pm

For others to help out others need to be involved - and the game needs to be played with their strengths in mind.

I don't see the point, you have players whose very approach to the game who perfectly compliment what he's trying to do and who will ensure that everyone on the team is given their fair share, and you run through Ronaldo. Our attack should be run FOR Ronaldo, not run THROUGH him.

It's a subtle and important difference.

And it really doesn't matter whether he changes or not - at least not in terms of the game (It does earn some credit) - or he tries to involve others or not unnless we buy someone who will capitalize on the irregular and difficult chances he creates. It's not really a criticism of him as it's a criticism of the attitude of the entire team.

The coach needs to adapt and get the entire team out of this mould.

by Sponsored content