Re: GoalLegacy Quintessential Tactical Discussion & Analysis Thread

[Onyx]

Thing is you can afford to give the space to one of the wingbacks. It's not possible for the other team to play a super accurate pass imo. One of the fullbacks, depending on what side the opposition is attacking from, will join the CB's.

I think.youre still missing what were saying

You are talking as if the way to switch the ball to the opposite FB is to hit a big switch or a long diagonal...Thats an option, of course, but really thats plan b.

The way you should switch from FB to FB under the pressing conditions laid out here is for the RB to it back to the GK and have the GK swing to the LB

In that scenario there is no need for the Hollywood switch you rightly said is difficult

Passing to the LWB would be risky, especially with all the players pressing high up.

[Onyx]

Thing is you can afford to give the space to one of the wingbacks. It's not possible for the other team to play a super accurate pass imo. One of the fullbacks, depending on what side the opposition is attacking from, will join the CB's.

Both won't go up at the same time. Like I said I put them both up there to show that they can be spare men in attack if they want to be. They are completely free and if they are dangerous enough the wingers in the 4-3-3 will be forced to track back or risk losing which in turn relieves pressure off the back three.

3-5-2 (or 3-4-3 with two wingbacks and two wingers) is a tactically flexible and fluid formation. It works best if you have players who can play more than one role (ball playing CB, wingers who can play wingback, midfield with stamina) such players exist however. The only problem would be getting your team to apply the tactics correctly because it isn't an easy formation to get used to.

The fullbacks would be marking the wingbacks, so they wouldn't really be spare men. The wingers wouldn't just stand and mark the 3 CB's all game, they would track back accordingly. Even if a team is pressing, the players have to still track back imo.

[Zealous]

Thing is you can afford to give the space to one of the wingbacks. It's not possible for the other team to play a super accurate pass imo. One of the fullbacks, depending on what side the opposition is attacking from, will join the CB's.

Both won't go up at the same time. Like I said I put them both up there to show that they can be spare men in attack if they want to be. They are completely free and if they are dangerous enough the wingers in the 4-3-3 will be forced to track back or risk losing which in turn relieves pressure off the back three.

3-5-2 (or 3-4-3 with two wingbacks and two wingers) is a tactically flexible and fluid formation. It works best if you have players who can play more than one role (ball playing CB, wingers who can play wingback, midfield with stamina) such players exist however. The only problem would be getting your team to apply the tactics correctly because it isn't an easy formation to get used to.

The fullbacks would be marking the wingbacks, so they wouldn't really be spare men. The wingers wouldn't just stand and mark the 3 CB's all game, they would track back accordingly. Even if a team is pressing, the players have to still track back imo.

Fair but how far would the fullbacks follow the wingbacks? You risk leaving yourself open if you get too stretched out.

Like I've said more than once if the two wingers mark the wingbacks then on of the CBs can come out and help gain the advantage in midfield.

[The Franchise]

Thanks for sharing, that was superb.

One thing I sort of missed though, what was the purpose of having the wingbacks in front of our wingers?

If I understood correct, its so one of them (mostly the left) could come inside to help in the midfield? Am I getting that right?

No. Maybe I should make that more clear. When he's talking about the left coming to help he's explaining the fallacy of the 4-4-2 and how because they only have 2 CMs a winger usually drops in to help. But his point is that now they have one less person on Messi and Messi takes advantage of that.

The way I understand it from the comment made at the 3 minute mark, the two FBs played in front of the wingers so they could push up and minimize Barca's wing-play. I think that was with Dani Alves in mind, but given that Enzo Perez was marking Abidal I'm sure that on the right side Clemente did his fair share of defending against Henry, so that probably holds true for the LB as well.

Ok, now I get it. Rewatched the vid too, makes sense

[The Franchise]

SMH are some of conversations happening here.

There is no "formation x beats formation y"...football never works like this. Players make the formation happen, not the other way around.

MT your nonesense has already been dispelled...you cant leave one defender to deal with one striker, or 2 defenders on 2...and the ball out to the leftback and then leftwing is not a hard one...I dont understand why you cant just see this and move on.

[Onyx]

Both won't go up at the same time. Like I said I put them both up there to show that they can be spare men in attack if they want to be. They are completely free and if they are dangerous enough the wingers in the 4-3-3 will be forced to track back or risk losing which in turn relieves pressure off the back three.

3-5-2 (or 3-4-3 with two wingbacks and two wingers) is a tactically flexible and fluid formation. It works best if you have players who can play more than one role (ball playing CB, wingers who can play wingback, midfield with stamina) such players exist however. The only problem would be getting your team to apply the tactics correctly because it isn't an easy formation to get used to.

The fullbacks would be marking the wingbacks, so they wouldn't really be spare men. The wingers wouldn't just stand and mark the 3 CB's all game, they would track back accordingly. Even if a team is pressing, the players have to still track back imo.

Fair but how far would the fullbacks follow the wingbacks? You risk leaving yourself open if you get too stretched out.

Like I've said more than once if the two wingers mark the wingbacks then on of the CBs can come out and help gain the advantage in midfield.

The 5-3-2 doesn't really have any wingers, so there's not really much to worry about in terms of the fullbacks going up. If one of the CB's goes into midfield, then one of the 3 attackers can follow him.

[Onyx]

SMH are some of conversations happening here.

There is no "formation x beats formation y"...football never works like this. Players make the formation happen, not the other way around.

MT your nonesense has already been dispelled...you cant leave one defender to deal with one striker, or 2 defenders on 2...and the ball out to the leftback and then leftwing is not a hard one...I dont understand why you cant just see this and move on.

The RB/LB can help the 2 CB's. It's not possible for the diagonal ball to 100% succeed. By the time the ball shifts to the other side, it's possible for the defending team to deal with the situation.

Also since the team with the ball will find it hard to find the LCB, the RW can roam around the LCB and LWB area, instead of strictly marking the LCB. In terms of the GK, well considering there's a lot of people pressing, it'd be risky for him to try and pass the ball out. If he does pass it out, then the team will most likely have to play a long ball anyway due to the pressure.

[Zealous]

SMH are some of conversations happening here.

There is no "formation x beats formation y"...football never works like this. Players make the formation happen, not the other way around.

Of course, like Sabella said tactics can only ever take you so far before it's just about the players.

There is a natural assumption when discussing formation match ups that the two hypothetical teams are exactly the same. Of course a team playing 4-3-3 can beat a teams playing 3-5-2. I was arguing for a 3-5-2 because worms seemed convinced that a 4-3-3 would always win regardless.

@ MT

When I say wingbacks I'm thinking players who can pose a danger when going forward. Think Marcelo and Dani Alves not just regular fullback you can afford to ignore.

[The Franchise]

SMH are some of conversations happening here.

There is no "formation x beats formation y"...football never works like this. Players make the formation happen, not the other way around.

Of course, like Sabella said tactics can only ever take you so far before it's just about the players.

There is a natural assumption when discussing formation match ups that the two hypothetical teams are exactly the same. Of course a team playing 4-3-3 can beat a teams playing 3-5-2. I was arguing for a 3-5-2 because worms seemed convinced that a 4-3-3 would always win regardless.

@ MT

When I say wingbacks I'm thinking players who can pose a danger when going forward. Think Marcelo and Dani Alves not just regular fullback you can afford to ignore.

I know, I see that. Im with you on that one.

[The Franchise]

SMH are some of conversations happening here.

There is no "formation x beats formation y"...football never works like this. Players make the formation happen, not the other way around.

MT your nonesense has already been dispelled...you cant leave one defender to deal with one striker, or 2 defenders on 2...and the ball out to the leftback and then leftwing is not a hard one...I dont understand why you cant just see this and move on.

The RB/LB can help the 2 CB's. It's not possible for the diagonal ball to 100% succeed. By the time the ball shifts to the other side, it's possible for the defending team to deal with the situation.

Also since the team with the ball will find it hard to find the LCB, the RW can roam around the LCB and LWB area, instead of strictly marking the LCB. In terms of the GK, well considering there's a lot of people pressing, it'd be risky for him to try and pass the ball out. If he does pass it out, then the team will most likely have to play a long ball anyway due to the pressure.

For the what, 5th time...who said diagonal ball? Please read man.

A simple ball back to goalie and then across, you escape. Its not a difficult ball at all.

I mean, I have literally organised this thing before with teams, been on the field with amatuer, let alone pros, who are more than capable of such a thing.


I ask you this, have you ever seen anyone press in the way your saying? with 3 forwards on 3 centerback or 2 centerbacks and a dropping holding midfielder? No, for a reason. You might want to think why you never seen that.

[Onyx]

It was just the situation you were talking about a few pages ago. Where 2 CB's can't mark 2 strikers. So I said one of the fullbacks would tuck in, but that would allow the RWB/LWB to be free.

It would be easy to pass it to the GK, however the GK would find it hard to find anyone and it'd be risky under the high pressing.

In terms of teams not pressing like this, well a 4-4-2 doesn't play a team with a 5-3-2 every week. It would be interesting to see how the pressing would work though.

[The Franchise]

No...the goalkeeper would have no problem because he would have plenty of time....he would have 20-30m of space to make a simple pass to an open player. Its not risky at all.

[Onyx]

Which player would be open? I doubt many GK's would try a pass like that. Most GK's would simply hoof it due to the pressure.

[Arquitecto]

"I don't have the time to reply to all of you and give a comprehensive view of my own at the moment, but I am very Proud to see that my thread has turned into one of the deepest & in-depth tactical threads in GL's history. I am Proud."

[The Franchise]

Which player would be open? I doubt many GK's would try a pass like that. Most GK's would simply hoof it due to the pressure.

A. There is no pressure, he would have 30m of space

B. The sidedefender, depending on what side you play to will be on.



Thats your diagram. Ignore the long pass you did, I aint doing that.

The leftback centerback will go wider, to the out and out leftback position. The ball will go from rightcenterback, to goalie, to this player.

All the while the leftwingback would free you have played out of the left side easily.

Also, my midfielders wouldnt be in that position you have them in. The RCM you have is useless there, only confusing the issue. He needs to be on the half way, giving his teammates more space.

Further more my rightwingback is in the wrong position, he is useless there, he would be 30 yards up the pitch taking aplayer with him giving even more space.

The DM then could use all that space to move laterally left, he can recieve the ball and play it one or two touch out to the leftcenterback who would be in the leftback zone in oceans of space.

So thats 2 ways out, the goalie making the easy pass, or the DM who would have more space than you have given him here playing a pass out to him.

[worms]

You gave your reasons................... and then I countered them.

Seriously lol

You didn't counter them at all.

Read my posts. It's fairly obvious what the points I'm bringing forward are.

At least watch the video BC posted. It also does a decent job of how a 3-5-2 can nullify a 4-3-3.

EDIT: I'll draw it out for you if you find reading too tedious

--------------------X---------------------
---X-----------X---------X----------X----
--------O----------------------O--------
-O----------------X-----------------O-----
-----------X------O------X----------------
------------O-----------O-----------------
-----X---------------------------X--------
--------------------X--------------------
---------O------------------O------------
------------------O----------------------
-------------------O---------------------


Look where the winbacks are in red. They're doubling up on your fullbacks with on of the front 2. It's still only 3v3 at the back and 2v1 on your flanks. They can even track back when needed (more likely only one will have to)

In the real world if the wingbacks of are of really good quality the wingers in a 4-3-3 will have to track back. Then it'll be 3v1 at the back, if this happens the ball playing CB can push up and help create an advantage in midfield which up until now is a stalemate at 3v3.

Except what you have shown in your diagram there is not a 3- 5 - 2 but rather some type of 3 - 3 - 4 formation which would get raped down the wings.Just look how much space my wingers would get playing against a system like that.My wingers would be able to receive the ball uncontested every time and be able to turn and run into acres of space.In fact the only difference between those two formations is that your team would have an extra forward and my team would have a extra defender.The 4 - 3 - 3 is a more balanced formation and would be much better defensively while still having solid attacking options,in fact my team would rape your team on the counter attack with all that space down the wings.

[Onyx]

Which player would be open? I doubt many GK's would try a pass like that. Most GK's would simply hoof it due to the pressure.

A. There is no pressure, he would have 30m of space

B. The sidedefender, depending on what side you play to will be on.



Thats your diagram. Ignore the long pass you did, I aint doing that.

The leftback centerback will go wider, to the out and out leftback position. The ball will go from rightcenterback, to goalie, to this player.

All the while the leftwingback would free you have played out of the left side easily.

The LCB will be pressed by the RW, while the LWB will be pressed by the RB. The LB from the 4-3-3 can come inside and help the CB's, since the 5-3-2 team is playing out from the left. The LWB won't be free.

Also, my midfielders wouldnt be in that position you have them in. The RCM you have is useless there, only confusing the issue. He needs to be on the half way, giving his teammates more space.

Further more my rightwingback is in the wrong position, he is useless there, he would be 30 yards up the pitch taking aplayer with him giving even more space.

The DM then could use all that space to move laterally left, he can recieve the ball and play it one or two touch out to the leftcenterback who would be in the leftback zone in oceans of space.

So thats 2 ways out, the goalie making the easy pass, or the DM who would have more space than you have given him here playing a pass out to him.

It doesn't really matter where the midfielders are placed, since it'll be hard to find an accurate pass to them with the narrow, tight and high pressing. If the DM moves left, then the 4-3-3 DM will press higher and the striker will press from behind.

Anyway I think this is turning into a chess type thing. I think the 4-3-3 is fully capable of pressing the 5-3-2 successfully. There could be some tactical changes from the 5-3-2 team to counter the pressing, however the 4-3-3 team would alter their pressing accordingly.

[The Franchise]

Which player would be open? I doubt many GK's would try a pass like that. Most GK's would simply hoof it due to the pressure.

A. There is no pressure, he would have 30m of space

B. The sidedefender, depending on what side you play to will be on.



Thats your diagram. Ignore the long pass you did, I aint doing that.

The leftback centerback will go wider, to the out and out leftback position. The ball will go from rightcenterback, to goalie, to this player.

All the while the leftwingback would free you have played out of the left side easily.

The LCB will be pressed by the RW, while the LWB will be pressed by the RB. The LB from the 4-3-3 can come inside and help the CB's, since the 5-3-2 team is playing out from the left. The LWB won't be free.

Also, my midfielders wouldnt be in that position you have them in. The RCM you have is useless there, only confusing the issue. He needs to be on the half way, giving his teammates more space.

Further more my rightwingback is in the wrong position, he is useless there, he would be 30 yards up the pitch taking aplayer with him giving even more space.

The DM then could use all that space to move laterally left, he can recieve the ball and play it one or two touch out to the leftcenterback who would be in the leftback zone in oceans of space.

So thats 2 ways out, the goalie making the easy pass, or the DM who would have more space than you have given him here playing a pass out to him.

It doesn't really matter where the midfielders are placed, since it'll be hard to find an accurate pass to them with the narrow, tight and high pressing. If the DM moves left, then the 4-3-3 DM will press higher and the striker will press from behind.

Anyway I think this is turning into a chess type thing. I think the 4-3-3 is fully capable of pressing the 5-3-2 successfully. There could be some tactical changes from the 5-3-2 team to counter the pressing, however the 4-3-3 team would alter their pressing accordingly.

A. So then a midfielder is free...even better, a midfielder will have more quality than a fullback so the chances of successfully advancing the ball increases.

B. Of course it matters where the midfielders are lol

If they move away, they take their markers with them or they become unmarked in the midfield zone.

Either they give someone else space or they get space, this is football 101.

If the DM presses and then brings the striker in, then you just opened up a huge channel to play the ball into...

You cannot get around this...its why noone does it.

Common sense, if you match up numerically all over the pitch like your trying to do, then you are leaving the defender in the 1 v 1 with space...he is going to lose that battle.

[BarrileteCosmico]

You should always have a man advantage at the back, always

Not really, if possession is your defense then having an idle player there at expense of a midfielder or a pressing forward is generally a bad idea. For counter attacking teams I suppose it makes sense, but it depends.

[CBarca]

"I don't have the time to reply to all of you and give a comprehensive view of my own at the moment, but I am very Proud to see that my thread has turned into one of the deepest & in-depth tactical threads in GL's history. I am Proud."

It's a lot of MT failing to understand a (relatively) simple concept- no offense to him, and some of worms talking about x formation beating y formation, which in itself is both ridiculous and hilarious. Hilarious in the way that you kinda hate him for saying it, though.

However, there is also a lot of good stuff in here too. Better than most of the drivel that exists in a lot of threads. Good stuff Arq

[The Franchise]

You should always have a man advantage at the back, always

Not really, if possession is your defense then having an idle player there at expense of a midfielder or a pressing forward is generally a bad idea. For counter attacking teams I suppose it makes sense, but it depends.

I disagree, in every team you cannot leave 1 v 1 at the back, or 2 v 2. The space would be too big and easy to exploit.

If your a possession team, you are still going to press with the right amout of numbers without having to go 1 v 1 at the back.

[Swanhends]

Holy balls I was thinking I cba making a diagram but there is no other way to illustrate this point, words are clearly not working

[RealGunner]

future Picasso

[RealGunner]

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[Jack Daniels]

future Picasso

Bhendlo Picasso lol

[RealGunner]

Bhends Van de Gogh

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