GoalLegacy Quintessential Tactical Discussion & Analysis Thread

[Arquitecto]

This article is originally in Italiano so I will have to translate it for you. Unfortunate as it read far better in its original language.

Carlo wrote it after the Marseille game in explaining his tactics.

05 - DIFFICULTY 'OFFENSIVE AND SOLUTIONS IN PRESSING

Hello everyone!
The Ligue 1 and the Champions League enter their crucial phase, and this periodic meeting with all of you, I am a professional range really nice: relieves tension and the high concentration accompanying the preparation of objectives that would be historic for the club and of course for me.

Today I want to introduce you to a specific tactical situation:

"The opposition in 4.4.2 to 5.3.2. Difficulties and solutions Pressing offensive "
Let's see ...

OBJECTIVE: Pressing Offensive

DIFFICULTIES ': the presence of three midfielders opponents in midfield and especially the player back dancing behind the two central midfielders of 4.4.2.

If we consider that our two external, have the external adversaries as a reference, we are outnumbered in midfield, with the result that they can not press them effectively, they have control of the game.





FIRST SOLUTION:
Attach it, in turn, with one of our two central midfielders, but this produces a bad result to discover the central area of the field, creating a space in which, during the possession, midfielders opponents can be inserted. (fig .1)


SECOND SOLUTION:
Re-enter with an attacking midfielder down. (Fig. 2)


THIRD SOLUTION:  Combined action based on the position of the ball:

1) With ball into the opposing half = outside backs more open and closer. (fig. 3)


With ball in our half of the field outside = very tight, to play on the opponents midfielders and allow one of the central midfielders to press the midfield opponent down. (Fig. 4)

In this case, the full-backs must be able to climb on the inclusion of the exterior, three against two opponents and remain on the defensive, with opposite narrow back.



COMMENTS:

Against the 5-3-2 (with the 4-4-2 ), in phase of possession, one has the possibility of having space on the backs and then these must receive the ball in a high position, so as to force the exterior (of five defenders) to come up.

In front of this situation is a fundamental movement behind the same and open one of the three central defenders, creating a central space where one of our tips will directly attack the deep.

I have given you a solution that allowed me to solve a difficult situation has arisen in the league against Lyon and I hope will serve you all, of course if you want to make an offensive pressure.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Very interesting stuff here.

http://www.carloancelotti.it/05-difficolta-e-soluzioni-nel-pressing-offensivo/

[The Franchise]

Fantastic information, something with actual substance..no replies.

Pep has Pique followed and some other boring drivel, 5 pages in a 20 minutes.

Shame on you GL.



Anyway, Arq, great find and thanks for posting. Its a little difficult with the wording, but I follow more or less still.

Going 3 at the back is always the way to escape pressing, but here its intresting how you can even press that formation.

The thing with any pressing, your part zone and part man, therefore you will always create a situation where you dont have numerical disadvantage. But to do this and still keep a 2 v 1 defensive construct (something you simply have to do) you must pick your spots.

So, that would be leaving the deepest man on the opponant with the ball, and cutting off every easy pass and forcing a long one. You want the long pass.

Alternatively, you can simply choose the weaker ball player of the 2 or in this case 3 defenders and have him make the decisions. You commonly see this vs Barcelona where Puyol is left with the ball to make the decision (or Mascherano) rather than Pique.

[Onyx]

Would it not be easier to press a 5-3-2 with a 4-3-3?

3 attackers press 3 CB's, FB's close down wingbacks, 3 midfielders vs 3 midfielders and 2 CB's vs 2 strikers.

[The Franchise]

No. You never want 2 CB's vs 2 forwards your asking for disaster. Every long ball will be a huge danger.

Barcelona struggled with long balls vs Madrid and that was usual 2 v 1..imagine if it was 2 v 2....

No, every thing I ever learnt says you want a spare man at all times at the back.

[Onyx]

Depending on whichever side the opposition play the long ball from, one of the fullbacks would be near the 2 CB's. The DM can also slot in if it is a long ball.

[The Franchise]

The DM will not know its a long ball until its too late, if he is up pressing the midfielder, he wont get back in time.

The fullback cannot get back that far in time either, again, if he is pressing he is up on the opponants wingback...that gap it 30m at least, no player can make up that ground to provide cover. Starting position is way off.

Also what your suggesting, if one player gets beat, just one...its going to be 3 v 2, 4 v 3...your going to get ripped open completely.

[DeviAngel]

Great read.

I've always seen the 4-4-2 as the most flexible formation next to the 3-5-2.

Great find arq

[Onyx]

I mean a situation like this, the RB here comes inside. He doesn't need to be closing down the LWB.

[The Franchise]

Then the opposing leftwingback will be free and they will never play that long ball, simply shuffle it across the back line (or back to goalie) and then attack down his side.


For that rightback to be there in good time, he has to start in a position away from the leftwingback. A good team and coach will recognise this and play there way out down this side easy.

Also, if the DM is there, it would be very easy for the opposing midfielder to come deep and pick up a shorter pass.

[Onyx]

The LWB will be free, however it's hard for a team to play an accurate ball to him under pressure, with the opposition's line being high, along with an offside trap being used. Even if he does get free, the RW can chase him back, since he won't strictly be marking/pressing the LCB. The LCM here is kinda free too, but it's pretty much impossible to find him due to the narrow pressing. The DM's moved slightly forward here.

A lot of the pressing won't be purely organised. In certain situations the striker for example will hassle the midfielders etc.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Some very cool stuff here. I think that it's interesting that he always switches to a 3 man defense when defending (which makes sense given that there are only 2 forwards) but that the 3 man defense is not always comprised of the same people. Must be hard to train like that.

[The Franchise]

The LWB will be free, however it's hard for a team to play an accurate ball to him under pressure, with the opposition's line being high, along with an offside trap being used. Even if he does get free, the RW can chase him back, since he won't strictly be marking/pressing the LCB. The LCM here is kinda free too, but it's pretty much impossible to find him due to the narrow pressing. The DM's moved slightly forward here.

A lot of the pressing won't be purely organised. In certain situations the striker for example will hassle the midfielders etc.

But why would they play that long ball in that diagram?

No, they would go back to goalie, the left defender will go out to the leftback zone and work the ball to the leftside of the pitch where the leftwingback would be much deeper and the pass is easy. Very easy way out of that pressure.

[Swanhends]

;dfqhwelfqksdhlqj this is so f*cking cool, you never see shit like this

I remember back when Mourinho was at Chelsea he explained in a press-conference (I think it was a post game interview) why his 433 was so successful in the EPL and why it gave him a competitive advantage against sides in the league that were still primarily playing a flat 442 at the time; and he made mention of the 3v2 problem in midfield and how Makalele was able to influence the game as the open man between the lines, and that was awesome.

But that pales in comparison to the detail present in this post; reactions to a number of different situations all depending on the position of the ball - brilliant stuff

Its frustrating, I wish other managers would do this kind of thing, especially in games where there is obviously some tactical intrigue, but at the same time I understand a managers need to keep his gameplan largely a mystery to any opposition.

I wish he had done this analysis of how to press with a 442 against a 433 or 4231 though, for the sole reason that such a piece would have wider implications based on how many teams play those two formations vs how many play 352, but still a great read

This write-up would be made especially interesting if Juve were to meet PSG or ManU etc in the Champions League

[CBarca]

Very interesting Arq, thank you for posting. Wish it was a little easier to understand but I could mostly understand it anyway, very cool. I'd love to see these kinds of things from a lot of coaches.

Seeing Pep or AVB's tactical write ups...what a dream.

[The Franchise]

Bielsa is who I want to here from most.

I think it would be a 6 hour read, but I would be more than willing.

[Kaladin]

Interesting stuff Arq, just skimmed it. Will read more in-depth after my flight

[Swanhends]

Re: MT/Franchise's discussion: I think the answer depends on where the ball is

If the ball is at the edge of the 18 or farther out, then Franchise is definitely right. The right back will play it back to the goalie and after one touch it will be sent out wide to the left back, and there isn't much (short of leaving a CM unmarked) that the defensive team can do to cope with that

However if a team is pressing very high up the pitch, as in - to the point where backpasses to the keeper are taking on more of a lateral path rather than backwards, that puts the team in possession in extreme danger since the ground angle to the open fullback is much more difficult

Also worthy of mention/important to note: As interesting as this is, games are always played on the pitch. The point of any pressing strategy is to cause chaos and panic among the other team, forcing them to either hit hopeful balls long, or (preferably) winning the ball high up the pitch in a dangerous position

So while IMO Dani is totally right in describing how a 3-man back should theoretically pass themselves out of any press situation, in an actual game is the defensive team is applying very strong pressure, they may very well be able to force the team into a bad pass even if on paper there is a clear out for them, especially if they are a team that is not comfortable in possession

[RealGunner]

Excellent thread Arq, thanks for sharing and translating mate

I find it interesting that Carlo used a 4-4-2 to press a 5-3-2 formation because 4-4-2 is not really a formation you would go against a big team unless you have the right players and the right tactics. I don't think many managers would even try and press with 4-4-2. Carlo however explained why he did that and it's pretty remarkable.

I think the reason why he did use a 4-4-2 is because the 2 upfront aren't really out n out strikers. Talking from PSG's perspective, Both Ibra and Lavezzi can easily drop in midfield to form a 4-5-1 with 5 "midfielders" pressing the 3 by going narrow. I have seen similar tactics deployed by Fergie in the past and even Arsene back in the early 2000. It's mostly about having the right type of players and expecting them to do the job in the right manner.

Talking about pressing as a whole, 3 man defence is indeed one of the best ways to escape pressing because there are more options in the midfield and you can counter the pressing by turning it against the opposition and exploit the space since pressing often leads to players being complacent about their natural positions. For example if Gonalons and Fofana are double pressing matuidi, he has 4 players around him to pass to as long as he decides quickly what to do with the ball. If he releases the ball early then the chance for a counter attack will be higher by at least 30%, however if he delays it, even by a second, then the advantage will go to Lyon since they are pressing higher up the pitch and even more so if they have pace.

That is why managers like Pep and Arsene have a strict rule of releasing the ball after a maximum of 2-3 touches unless you are in space or the other team is parking the bus. Intelligence in football is very very underrated. You can easily overcome pressing by outsmarting your opponent marker and turn the tactics against him.

Further more, I mentioned this in the barcelona section but i'll say it here as well. The dutch were marvelous at their pressing game. They took it to a whole new level when they combined man to man marking with zonal pressing. It's surprising and not surprising at the same time that managers don't adapt it to the modern game. Surprising because it's one of the most effective pressing tactics to use and not surprising because it's incredibly hard and frustrating. Allegri used it to perfection against barcelona and Mourinho has been using it against Barca as well ever since the 5-0 defeat. pep used it for 3 years straight and you can all see how incredible Barcelona were during that time.

However to escape that kind of pressing, you have to rely on their individual errors and your individual brilliance. Or you can counter it by deploying a 4-4-2 co-incidentally. It's all in theory though, because 4-4-2 will once again only work if you have the right players for it. To escape the barca-esque pressing, you can win Celtic/Chelsea/Rubin Kazan style. Limit your passing since their pressing is to stop you from passing the ball. If you hoof it to Samaras/Drogba while you have the split second to do so, then you do have a chance to counter attack. But it's hard.

[Great Leader Sprucenuce]

Thing is off the ball 4-4-2 has always been a fantastic system its very solid and leaves very little holes defensively.

I have seen Barca go into a 4-4-2 shape off the ball many many times, its when you have the ball 4-4-2 tends to be a problem.

Reason being usually is because its very rigid and doesn't allow much off the ball movement so its easy to defense against but as far as pressing goes its very effective always has been and always will be.

[Onyx]

A basic 4-4-2 defensively isn't the best imo. AM's can get in behind the midfield and that's where the problems start. Barca usually defend with a 4-1-4-1.

[The Franchise]

Re: MT/Franchise's discussion: I think the answer depends on where the ball is

If the ball is at the edge of the 18 or farther out, then Franchise is definitely right. The right back will play it back to the goalie and after one touch it will be sent out wide to the left back, and there isn't much (short of leaving a CM unmarked) that the defensive team can do to cope with that

However if a team is pressing very high up the pitch, as in - to the point where backpasses to the keeper are taking on more of a lateral path rather than backwards, that puts the team in possession in extreme danger since the ground angle to the open fullback is much more difficult

Also worthy of mention/important to note: As interesting as this is, games are always played on the pitch. The point of any pressing strategy is to cause chaos and panic among the other team, forcing them to either hit hopeful balls long, or (preferably) winning the ball high up the pitch in a dangerous position

So while IMO Dani is totally right in describing how a 3-man back should theoretically pass themselves out of any press situation, in an actual game is the defensive team is applying very strong pressure, they may very well be able to force the team into a bad pass even if on paper there is a clear out for them, especially if they are a team that is not comfortable in possession

I understand. I wasnt really trying to say 3 at the back can escape any pressing situation, rather it gives you the best chance generally speaking because it ruins the shape of the pressing side, or at least tests their shape and their disciple to press.

Dont disagree with what you have there really, pressing is really about that...players are worse the less time they have to make a decisions, so take time away and you will make it that much harder.

Thats why is baffling to me why more teams dont do it.

How many games do I see where a team is losing and still dont press to any degree.

[RealGunner]

Re: MT/Franchise's discussion: I think the answer depends on where the ball is

If the ball is at the edge of the 18 or farther out, then Franchise is definitely right. The right back will play it back to the goalie and after one touch it will be sent out wide to the left back, and there isn't much (short of leaving a CM unmarked) that the defensive team can do to cope with that

However if a team is pressing very high up the pitch, as in - to the point where backpasses to the keeper are taking on more of a lateral path rather than backwards, that puts the team in possession in extreme danger since the ground angle to the open fullback is much more difficult

Also worthy of mention/important to note: As interesting as this is, games are always played on the pitch. The point of any pressing strategy is to cause chaos and panic among the other team, forcing them to either hit hopeful balls long, or (preferably) winning the ball high up the pitch in a dangerous position

So while IMO Dani is totally right in describing how a 3-man back should theoretically pass themselves out of any press situation, in an actual game is the defensive team is applying very strong pressure, they may very well be able to force the team into a bad pass even if on paper there is a clear out for them, especially if they are a team that is not comfortable in possession

I understand. I wasnt really trying to say 3 at the back can escape any pressing situation, rather it gives you the best chance generally speaking because it ruins the shape of the pressing side, or at least tests their shape and their disciple to press.

Dont disagree with what you have there really, pressing is really about that...players are worse the less time they have to make a decisions, so take time away and you will make it that much harder.

Thats why is baffling to me why more teams dont do it.

How many games do I see where a team is losing and still dont press to any degree.

Yep, agreed with that. What i said as well.

[BarrileteCosmico]

So this thread has inspired me to translate Sabella's chat during which he explains how he tackled Barca at the CWC final. It took me a lot longer to do than I'm willing to admit lol.

Anyways:


Make sure to hit CC to see the subtitles

[Forza]

Bit difficult to read, but eventually I got it after reading the Italian version. Very cool last diagram.

[Swanhends]

Thing is off the ball 4-4-2 has always been a fantastic system its very solid and leaves very little holes defensively.

I have seen Barca go into a 4-4-2 shape off the ball many many times, its when you have the ball 4-4-2 tends to be a problem.

Reason being usually is because its very rigid and doesn't allow much off the ball movement so its easy to defense against but as far as pressing goes its very effective always has been and always will be.

Partially agree: When defending deep 442 is a good shape without the ball, especially if you stay compact. Two banks of four with little space between the lines is very difficult to break down

However, for teams that actually want to come out and play (and especially those who want to press) 442 is very difficult...With the landscape of todays game in Europe, where 4231 is the dominant formation, 442 struggles to cope with that...If they try to go blow for blow they will always be at a disadvantage against a well drilled side. If they try to press forward they leave a man free between the lines (unless they let a CB charge forward to mark him, which leaves space in behind), or alternatively they could leave one of the deeper midfielders free, but that would sort of defeat the purpose of the pressing system to begin with, as even a DM who is not a prolific passer will be able to find his way when not under pressure

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