Greatest magician ever

lol nick you screwed him

Yohan Modric wrote:I don't think being tactically good is just about playing attacking football. Tactics involve the defensive things too.

There's probably other things like substitutions etc etc. The way to attack, movement, defensive positioning etc etc.

We didn't park the bus when we won La Liga last year. Counter-attacking is a tactic too.

But many others have done similar things and dont get "tactical genuis" tag.

I think look at his big games with Madrid and lets talk about his tactics in those.

Kroos outnumbered your midfield time and time again, and he didnt have an answer for it. It was the game breaking tactic of the tie. Yes you went to penalties and it was a close game on the scoreline, but anyone watching realistically should of come to the conclusion that was because of Gomez missing some chances strikers at that level simply must be away. Not because anything Madrid did tactically.

We could literally spend an hour talking about how Pep outmaneuvered him more times than not.

Bigger than that though hisfirst season and now this season, you have looked disjointed tactically, a broken team who rely on individuals. The major theme continues to be about this Madrid who rely on individuals and have periods where they look disjointed.

Even the title winning season was the same, the only difference is those individuals were very highly motivated which everyone gives him credit for I think.

Look at the games Madrid dont win and compare to games Barca dont win for example.

When Barca dont win, the games are the same, we play the same way, create, attack, defend the same way. We just didnt finish our chances today or inidivudals were poor at the back today or Valdes gifted a goal or whatever.

When Madrid dont win, you look horrible. Like Osasuna, the bottom team in the league controlling the game for long periods, having more of the ball, forcing you back into your own half for long periods.

The reason? Because you dont have a real way of playing..you have individuals do magic.

thats not true, last year most of the games madrid wasn't capable of winning were due to those teams we were talking previously parking the bus,
i remember quite well madrid doing a 'barcelona' and being during the entire 2nd half on the opposition's side trying to break their defence

what do you mean real way of playing? yes last year there were games where the team was hoofing the ball and stuff but that could be cause the tactics actually didnt work?

i dont think you can win the league purely with motivation let alone breaking that many records doing it

this year on the other side is another story, there are many factors related to the team's performance from day 1

you know Dani, that's exactly why Mourinho preferred signing Di Maria over Silva, for his ability to the unexpected and to go on solo runs forward. when you look now, it's nuts right?

And that's exactly why he had us scouting the likes of Bale, just another player that can individually turn deep possession into a play in the last 20 meters.

His disdain for organized, patient play only betrays his ineptitude to get his team to create on the ball.

@Idiot, what you dont get is that it's easy to do a barcelona when you play vs zaragoza, how come we didnt do it vs Bayern?

imo we can do a 'barcelona' whenever we want to, or at least we could..
its just that he doesnt want to, he does it his way, cause he thinks the team will have more chances on winning and qualifing that way.

there were many times against barca were we looked superior, and im not talking only about the recent games, even from the 1st year in the 2nd leg of CL we looked sharp and like a team with character at times dominating the game.
This season things are different,the external factors affect the team's performance hence the bad results in the league, but in CL things are different cause the games are unique and individually important, so the motivation factor which is still alive in that competition, in combination with the tactical plans conclude to good performances (imo)

you guys just dont want to accept the fact that mourinho prefers to park the bus and go defensively to achieve glory, you justify it by eliminating his abilities tactical/attacking wise

im off for now

Idiot wrote:imo we can do a 'barcelona' whenever we want to, or at least we could..
its just that he doesnt want to, he does it his way, cause he thinks the team will have more chances on winning and qualifing that way.

Let me get off my bed so i can start laughing standing, and then make few rolls like di maria

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:I don't think being tactically good is just about playing attacking football. Tactics involve the defensive things too.

There's probably other things like substitutions etc etc. The way to attack, movement, defensive positioning etc etc.

We didn't park the bus when we won La Liga last year. Counter-attacking is a tactic too.

But many others have done similar things and dont get "tactical genuis" tag.

I think look at his big games with Madrid and lets talk about his tactics in those.

Kroos outnumbered your midfield time and time again, and he didnt have an answer for it. It was the game breaking tactic of the tie. Yes you went to penalties and it was a close game on the scoreline, but anyone watching realistically should of come to the conclusion that was because of Gomez missing some chances strikers at that level simply must be away. Not because anything Madrid did tactically.

We could literally spend an hour talking about how Pep outmaneuvered him more times than not.

Bigger than that though hisfirst season and now this season, you have looked disjointed tactically, a broken team who rely on individuals. The major theme continues to be about this Madrid who rely on individuals and have periods where they look disjointed.

Even the title winning season was the same, the only difference is those individuals were very highly motivated which everyone gives him credit for I think.

Look at the games Madrid dont win and compare to games Barca dont win for example.

When Barca dont win, the games are the same, we play the same way, create, attack, defend the same way. We just didnt finish our chances today or inidivudals were poor at the back today or Valdes gifted a goal or whatever.

When Madrid dont win, you look horrible. Like Osasuna, the bottom team in the league controlling the game for long periods, having more of the ball, forcing you back into your own half for long periods.

The reason? Because you dont have a real way of playing..you have individuals do magic.

He can't get every tactical move right. And maybe other coaches haven't won as many trophies as Mourinho has.

And yeh I agree, we need a style of play. All I'm saying is being tactically good doesn't just mean playing attacking football. I think there's more to tactics than that.

Majority of the games football games are hardly won because of tactical plans anyway. Sure they implement it but rarely they bare fruitful. I would say 1/3.

Idiot wrote:imo we can do a 'barcelona' whenever we want to, or at least we could..

Try averaging 3 or more successful passes in a a row against worst in division teams first please

Yohan Modric wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:I don't think being tactically good is just about playing attacking football. Tactics involve the defensive things too.

There's probably other things like substitutions etc etc. The way to attack, movement, defensive positioning etc etc.

We didn't park the bus when we won La Liga last year. Counter-attacking is a tactic too.

But many others have done similar things and dont get "tactical genuis" tag.

I think look at his big games with Madrid and lets talk about his tactics in those.

Kroos outnumbered your midfield time and time again, and he didnt have an answer for it. It was the game breaking tactic of the tie. Yes you went to penalties and it was a close game on the scoreline, but anyone watching realistically should of come to the conclusion that was because of Gomez missing some chances strikers at that level simply must be away. Not because anything Madrid did tactically.

We could literally spend an hour talking about how Pep outmaneuvered him more times than not.

Bigger than that though hisfirst season and now this season, you have looked disjointed tactically, a broken team who rely on individuals. The major theme continues to be about this Madrid who rely on individuals and have periods where they look disjointed.

Even the title winning season was the same, the only difference is those individuals were very highly motivated which everyone gives him credit for I think.

Look at the games Madrid dont win and compare to games Barca dont win for example.

When Barca dont win, the games are the same, we play the same way, create, attack, defend the same way. We just didnt finish our chances today or inidivudals were poor at the back today or Valdes gifted a goal or whatever.

When Madrid dont win, you look horrible. Like Osasuna, the bottom team in the league controlling the game for long periods, having more of the ball, forcing you back into your own half for long periods.

The reason? Because you dont have a real way of playing..you have individuals do magic.

He can't get every tactical move right. And maybe other coaches haven't won as many trophies as Mourinho has.

And yeh I agree, we need a style of play. All I'm saying is being tactically good doesn't just mean playing attacking football. I think there's more to tactics than that.

I think he should of done a better job in implementing an actual style of play for you. Its been 3 seasons.

Dont you think someone with the supposedly great tactics would be capable of that?

Much lesser coaches do that.

I think that is Nick's biggest problem and its a fair one.

Donuts wrote:

Idiot wrote:imo we can do a 'barcelona' whenever we want to, or at least we could..

Try averaging 3 or more successful passes in a a row against worst in division teams first please

They already did.

And if you are going to compare 2004 Greece, 2010 Inter, and 2012 Chelsea at least attempt to do it somewhat intelligently.

The Franchise, you have no idea what you are talking about, really. Jose Mourinho realized that Bayern München were winning the midfield battle as early as the 20th minute, when he swapped Mesut Özil to the wing and brought Angel Di Maria to the centre of the pitch due to his more refined defensive abilities. This tactical change lasted until the end of the first half, where Jose Mourinho brought Özil back to the centre to instigate attacks which Real Madrid scored from.

When Jupp Heynckes replaced Kroos with Müller, Bayern faced the same issue that Real Madrid did earlier - losing the midfield battle due to playing a support striker [Özil/Müller]. The match was lost due to tactical errors by the team - Jose Mourinho correctly wanted to kill this away match when he brought in Granero. Marcelo failed to support Coentrão, which allowed Lahm to win the duel on the wing and allowed Mario Gomez to capitalize on poor defending coinciding with brilliant positioning to get on the end of the cross. The tactics simply were not implemented successfully by the players.

The main issue is that there was no real solution to Toni Kroos, a classic playmaker who differs greatly from the modern playmaker in Mesut Özil. The second leg was planned correctly, where as the poacher he is, caused immense difficulties for Sergio Ramos and Pepe, two notoriously average defenders in a positional sense. But Real Madrid were lucky because he could not finish.

The penalty shootout is obviously just a coin toss, made worse of the fact that Real Madrid's best takers failed to score. If you are going to call him an average tactician just based on his managing career at Real Madrid, that is pretty idiotic.

how many gosh darn TMO accounts are there?!!

bring back tmo.

Don't know why that is relevant...

peerIess wrote:And if you are going to compare 2004 Greece, 2010 Inter, and 2012 Chelsea at least attempt to do it somewhat intelligently.

The Franchise, you have no idea what you are talking about, really. Jose Mourinho realized that Bayern München were winning the midfield battle as early as the 20th minute, when he swapped Mesut Özil to the wing and brought Angel Di Maria to the centre of the pitch due to his more refined defensive abilities. This tactical change lasted until the end of the first half, where Jose Mourinho brought Özil back to the centre to instigate attacks which Real Madrid scored from.

When Jupp Heynckes replaced Kroos with Müller, Bayern faced the same issue that Real Madrid did earlier - losing the midfield battle due to playing a support striker [Özil/Müller]. The match was lost due to tactical errors by the team - Jose Mourinho correctly wanted to kill this away match when he brought in Granero. Marcelo failed to support Coentrão, which allowed Lahm to win the duel on the wing and allowed Mario Gomez to capitalize on poor defending coinciding with brilliant positioning to get on the end of the cross. The tactics simply were not implemented successfully by the players.

The main issue is that there was no real solution to Toni Kroos, a classic playmaker who differs greatly from the modern playmaker in Mesut Özil. The second leg was planned correctly, where as the poacher he is, caused immense difficulties for Sergio Ramos and Pepe, two notoriously average defenders in a positional sense. But Real Madrid were lucky because he could not finish.

The penalty shootout is obviously just a coin toss, made worse of the fact that Real Madrid's best takers failed to score. If you are going to call him an average tactician just based on his managing career at Real Madrid, that is pretty idiotic.

He did that and guess what, it didnt work. We have had this discussion before. You dont get credit for trying something and it failing

Madrid scored from it? Great, but they didnt stop Kroos which was the entire problem.

No solution to Kroos? Any fool could of seen the amount of space he was getting, obviously he (Mourinho) needed to get a shield in there, a holding player to deny the space in between the lines.

His tactics at Madrid have been bad vs Bayern and generally against Barca. Add on the fact Madrid dont have a style of play 3 years on....what more do you want?

TBH, we lost in a PK shoutout against Bayern. It's not like that was a massive failure or anything... we actually played well but ran out of steam since we were playing Barca in the classico in between the two games. We started off extremely fast in the return game at Madrid and then just got tired. Bayern, on the other hand, had already lost Bundi and had rested all their starters in the game prior to the return leg.

Just one of those things. I don't blame Mou for that one.

I have 3 beefs about him:
- He's an awful public representative of Madrid
- He's deceitful and manipulative
- For someone of his reputation, this tactical adjustments this year have been a joke

On the pitch, i can't complain about him during his first 2 years.

sportsczy wrote:TBH, we lost in a PK shoutout against Bayern. It's not like that was a massive failure or anything... we actually played well but ran out of steam since we were playing Barca in the classico in between the two games. We started off extremely fast in the return game at Madrid and then just got tired. Bayern, on the other hand, had already lost Bundi and had rested all their starters in the game prior to the return leg.

Just one of those things. I don't blame Mou for that one.

I have 3 beefs about him:
- He's an awful public representative of Madrid
- He's deceitful and manipulative
- For someone of his reputation, this tactical adjustments this year have been a joke

On the pitch, i can't complain about him during his first 2 years.

The only reason why it wasnt a "failure" was all thanks to Gomez, who was missing chances after chances. It had nothing to do with Mou..

Sorry.... but we missed a ton of chances too. Neuer was in god mode or we could have scored many more goals...

I hold Real Madrid in the highest regard. Ever since I was a child my grand father would tell me stories of how golden Ajax dominat Real Madrid and how our players were doing kip ups in front of the Madrid fans. They are the biggest club and most prestigous.

To see them play this way breaks my heart because they are fully capable of playing with the same philosophy as Grande Espana, which is what they should be doing, instead they are playing primitive football that makes me fear for the future of Real Madrid. He should be sacked with immediate effect before he brings the whole institution into more disrepute!

First, let us not get ahead of ourselves. Mou is certainly not a terrible manager, he is certainly not a tactical imbecile, and most certainly he is not a failure as a coach. Mou is in fact a good manager, with decent tactical knowledge, and great skill at manipulation and motivation. That is where it stops. Indeed, Mou is not the self-proclaimed special one he claims to be, and is not the magician and "Barca stomper" he marketed himself to the world.

The fact that Mou has such a cult like fan base is telling of the way the world works; a world that ignores facts and sensationalizes half-truths. Mou is not a magician, and his stint at Madrid is not a success. Anyone claiming that Mou is the best coach should read below and see how far wrong they are.

Porto:

First of all, Porto winning the league is no big achievement. Porto and Benfica have the league title locked—especially Porto—that it does not require a genius to do so, and that whoever does so should have no claims of genius thrust into him.

So we can focus on the 2004 Cl. Porto qualified the second in their group after RM, they then face Manchester United, beating them by a one goal margin, then they comprehensively beaten Lyon, after which they faced Deportivo and beat them by a one goal margin. Finally, they won the CL by comprehensively beating Monaco. Many cite this campaign as proof of Mou's genius. Anyone doing so evidently did not watch the 2004 CL.

1- Man United were far from a strong team in 2004, they were a team barely racing with Arsenal in the BPL, and Deportivo were arguably a stronger side.
2- More importantly, that porto side were no scrubs: a team with the best Portuguese talent since Figo (Deco) and the strong defense of Paulo Farrera, Ricardo Carvalho, Jorge Costan, and Nuno Valente is not a scrub teams. They also had Maniche, Costinha, and Pedro Mendes at their prim as well. Deco was especially influential throughout the campaign.
3- This was a strange CL, where the arguably the strongest teams in the CL both has shocking performances against them (RM losing 3-1 to Monaco and the more shocking Milan 4-0 defeat to Deportivo). In fact both Monaco and Depor faced stronger opposition than Porto.

This victory was indeed an important one for Mou, and he is dully credited for, but why the frak no mention of the players is ever given by any Mou fan. I asked several about the name of Porto players to such fans, and many could not name a single one, and the few who could named only Deco or Carvalho.

I am not discrediting Mou for the victory, just know where the coach's influence ends when a victory is achieved. Also, while the Porto won the Cl, Mou did not show any particular tactical skill or knowledge. All matches were straightforward affair. So what we have is a strong team and a good coach and favorable circumstances. Porto winning the CL was not a miracle. Deportivo or Monaco winning the CL was more of a miracle given they had weaker sides.

Chelsea

Imagine you have the strongest most expensive team in the league, your closest rival just sold their best players to accommodate building their new stadium, and the second closest rival is facing their biggest slump since the 1990s. Would any manager not win the league? FFS, Avram grant managed to get 2nd with that team. Fact is, Chelsea were second before Mou came, and with Mou came several star players as well. Even though, the core of that team was made and molded by Ranieri. So Mou comes in to the strongest richest team in the league, sitting into another person's work, and he is suddenly heralded as a genius coach. What logic is that.

Simply put, Mou's arena to prove himself was the CL. Where he got twice outsmarted by an arguably weaker team (Liverpool), and according to Mou fans a much inferior tactician (Rapha Benitez). It was his failure in the CL (which was predicted in the 3rd year as well) and his wavering results in the league that prompted trigger ginger to sack him. How Mou turned his sacking into a case of martyrdom is a lesson in marketing that should be taught in business schools. The fact that Nobody manager Avram Grant did better with Chelsea in the CL than Mou accentuates Mou's failure in that regard.

What genius if any did we see from Mou in Chelsea? Was it the titles that had little to no competition with Arsenal selling their players and Man United just recovering from their slump? Or was it the CL failure?

What we saw in Chelsea was a competent coach using the superior team to win a title, then failing to tactically use that superiority to win in Europe. That is exactly what it was, and yet Mou is being heralded as a tactical messiah by the English press. And we got him telling the whole world how Special he is.

Inter:

You go to the strongest and richest team in a league struggling from the corruption scandal of two years ago. Your successor has managed to win the league two times already. You closest opponents just came in from Serie B, or are shadows of their former selves. What the frak can you do except win the league, that Mou was so close to botching that one in the season Roma were so close to get it is insane. That Mou managed to get only 2nd in a group containing Werder Bremen, Panthinaikos, and Anthoresis by one point just to get dumped my Manchester is also insane. Given the talent Inter has, Mou was sure in to compete for the CL.

Which he did with inter in 2010, and they won. This is the most recent Mou victory, and is the showcase which Mou fans point to show Mou's genius. They don't mention: Julio Ceasar, Lucio, Walter the wall Samuel, Cambiasso, Maicon, Sneijder, Eto, Milito, and the immortal Zannetti. The fact that all those players hit their prime at the same time means nothing to them. The fact that Mou showed no sign of tactical use other than defending deap and then counter attacking means nothing to them as well. That Inter beat Barca with the most basic tools of football is of no consequence.

Inter's CL is not a show of master class tactics, it is a show of how grit, determination, and team effort wins trophies. How Mou gets away with all the credit for such a victory is beyond me, especially when coaches like Pep are ridiculed for "succeeding because of their players". Inter's win against Barca in the San Siro was the only show of real tactical skill by Mou in all his years, and instead of carrying away with it he reverted to the tortoise formation (partially due to peak-a-boo though) in the camp nou.

Why do you Mou fans never credit the players, why do you believe Mou to be the sole reason for their victory?

Note: On the similarities between Inter 2010 and Greece 2004, there are very few. Greece were far an inferior side to everyone else in they played against. Their approach to games was highly physical and their hoof ball and dead ball skill were highly practiced. Otto Rehagel recognized his side for what it is, and caught everyone by surprise. It was designed to win in mind, but could not be sustained. Otto should be lauded for using "limited" players and winning with them instead of ridiculed. Greece players were armatures in comparison to the nations they played against; that they won is a great testament to their will and courage in spite of what all football purists say.

Real Madrid:

And so we arrive to the crux of the argument. The Real Madrid job. For one thing, this the first time Mou does not coach the strongest team in the league, he is coaching the most expensive, but Barca must be defeated. His successor could not do so despite playing thrilling football. Here is what Mou accomplished in his time at Madrid:

1- One Copa in his first year, and suddenly the micky mouse trophy was declared to be a holy grail.
2- One La Liga, showing that Madrid are indeed equal as a team to Barca even if being beaten by them when playing together.
3- Being dominated by Barca, that Madrid won a couple of times is a statistical certainty given the amount of times they met.
4- A general lack of success in the CL.
5- A woeful 2012-2013 campaign so far, a campaign so woeful it put his entire career under severs questioning.

So in effect, Mou did not accomplish more or less than any Madrid manager for the last 10 years. He still has time in his side, and only the CL will tell.

Conclusion:

Mou is really a solid coach with a list of accomplishments behind them. He is however by any stretch a tactical genius or the best coach ever. The fact is that Mou always found success because he always went to the teams with the potential for most success. His only challenge in his career league wise is his stint at RM, and so far he is failing. His CL success obscures his usual CL failures, most noticeably with Chelsea and Inter his first year. If he fails in the Cl again at this stage, he would be the coach who managed to fail with the most expensive teams ever. He already probably holds that title.

Again, Mou is not a failure. He is not the worst manager. But he is not the best, and those who proclaim RM, Inter, and Chelsea were irrelevant before he came are as ignorant as they come. And those who think RM would sink into mediocrity after he goes are ignorant of the club's history and wealth. Frankly, given the wealth of evidence, anyone who thinks the man is genius lacks any credibility, and I doubt they watched any of Mou's several seasons' worth of football.
Note that all through my analysis, I did not once refer to Mou's personal behavior, which is an entirely different story.

Great post LS Don't agree with all of it... but so what lol. You made good arguments.

sportsczy wrote:Great post LS Don't agree with all of it... but so what lol. You made good arguments.

It was a heavy post to write now my back hurts

Lord Spencer wrote:

sportsczy wrote:Great post LS Don't agree with all of it... but so what lol. You made good arguments.

It was a heavy post to write now my back hurts

you should feel lucky, mourinho usually pokes eyes for stuff like that, kudos tho

Great read LS, agree with you on Mourinho