juventus101 wrote:Alonso is better than Arteta, but neither are Top 5. Schweinsteiger, Marchisio, Vidal, Pirli, and Xavi are Top 5. De Rossi gives Vidal a fight for that spot, and either way at least is 6th. Then Alonso and Yaya and then Montolivo, Aquilani, Arteta, Cabaye, Khedira, and Gundogan fight for the last two spots.

Iniesta, Kroos, Wilshere, and Fabregas are attacking mids, and Martinez and Busquets are defensive mids so these guys dont qualify. They wouldnt all necessarily make the list anyways, but it should be noted that they dont qualify.

As usual bias in those rankings If you think Vidal is a centre mid as well as Arteta, Yaya, Gundogan and half that list and Iniesta and Wilshere are not then you have a problem...

because Alonso played for Liverpool and Arteta played for Everton , Alonso is better?

Youre trying to tell a Juve fan what position a Juve player plays. Vidal was a pure DM at Lecerkusen. Hes a B2B at Juve. And yes i consider Wilshere and Iniesta to be AMs. They clwarly are.

Give me reasons why Wilshere and Iniesta are not CM's...

Epoto wrote: because Alonso played for Liverpool and Arteta played for Everton , Alonso is better?

Way to quote a tiny bit of my post to make the above out of context with the points I was making.

You are like the geniuses who quote Bible phrases out of context to try and disprove the Bibles credibility.

Well done.Hope you're proud of yourself.

worms wrote:

Epoto wrote: because Alonso played for Liverpool and Arteta played for Everton , Alonso is better?

Way to quote a tiny bit of my post to make the above out of context with the points I was making.

You are like the geniuses who quote Bible phrases out of context to try and disprove the Bibles credibility.

Well done.Hope you're proud of yourself.

in a context or out of it still funny Mr bible guy

Let me put it this way. Iniesta and Wilshere are of the same type of player as Kroos. An AM capable of playing CM, but better as a 10. For example in a 4-2-3-1, Wilshere and Iniesta could both play in the '2', but w ould be at their best in the center of the '3' as the #10. I mean, everyone likes to do the Ozil or Iniesta comparison. Its because theyre similar players position-wise. Heres a comparison. Iniesta and Wilshere are far closer to Kroos and Ozil, than they are to Schweinsteiger and Alonso. I think everyone would agree with that.

Iniesta has never played 10 in his life and never will, even for Spain

4231 is just one formation it doesnt make them what they are. England, Arsenal and Spain have used that formation and neither have ever played in that role.

A number 10 operates in between the lines, trying to find the space usually by moving lateral. Giving the centerbacks and deepest midfield confusion as to who should pick them up, who should cover them. Neither do that.

juventus101 wrote:Let me put it this way. Iniesta and Wilshere are of the same type of player as Kroos. An AM capable of playing CM, but better as a 10. For example in a 4-2-3-1, Wilshere and Iniesta could both play in the '2', but w ould be at their best in the center of the '3' as the #10. I mean, everyone likes to do the Ozil or Iniesta comparison. Its because theyre similar players position-wise. Heres a comparison. Iniesta and Wilshere are far closer to Kroos and Ozil, than they are to Schweinsteiger and Alonso. I think everyone would agree with that.

Why are you using 4 - 2 - 3 - 1 as an example when Iniesta plays in a 4 - 3 - 3 for Barca? And when he plays in midfield it is in a CM position,slightly further forward than Xavi but it's still clearly Center Midfield.

For Spain Iniesta plays on the wing,but he obviously wouldn't suit the double pivot role for Spain because in Spains system that's the job for a Deep Lying Playmaker(Alonso) and a Defensive Midfielder(Busquets) not a center midfielder.

I don't see how you can call him a attacking midfielder when he doesn't play that position for club or country.For Spain he sometimes drifts inwards but his position is LAM in a 4 - 2 - 3 -1.And no that's not the same position as a normal AM like Ozil.

Could he play AM? Of course he could,but he doesn't so....

Why do people think that Alonso is a "deep-lying playmaker" but Busquets is a "DM"?

juventus101 wrote:Let me put it this way. Iniesta and Wilshere are of the same type of player as Kroos. An AM capable of playing CM, but better as a 10. For example in a 4-2-3-1, Wilshere and Iniesta could both play in the '2', but w ould be at their best in the center of the '3' as the #10. I mean, everyone likes to do the Ozil or Iniesta comparison. Its because theyre similar players position-wise. Heres a comparison. Iniesta and Wilshere are far closer to Kroos and Ozil, than they are to Schweinsteiger and Alonso. I think everyone would agree with that.

Iniesta and Wilshere are both CM's. Alonso is a deep lying playmaker, not a CM.

futbol wrote:Why do people think that Alonso is a "deep-lying playmaker" but Busquets is a "DM"?

Although Busquets is good at passing, his primary role is to protect the defense.

Alonso's primary role is to playmake from the DM area.

Neither of them are CM's.

Not true. There is no such thing as "primary" role.

With the ball and without it, offensively and defensively, both Alonso and Busquets have roles.

The difference? Alonso cant do the defensive role he has effectively and with the ball he is more adventurous, for good and bad.

worms wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:I can't agree with my friend HB on Wilshere because of the reason that I consider him more an AM then a CM.

Iniesta is NOT a CM.

Arteta for anyone who has watched both him and Xabi will readily admit Arteta has been superior for over two years in defence and attack. If this is bias then you are talking to Xabi' number one fan here. He has been world class pure and simple.

And lets not start the 0 caps argument given how many other examples can be produced of mediocre players starting undeservedly over their clear superiors. That debate is obsolete.

Just no,Alonso was brilliant last year for Madrid and Spain.Arteta hasn' t really done anything in the game,he's good but nowhere near world class.There's a reason why Arteta has 0 caps and Alonso has over 100,there's a reason why Arteta played for Everton for all those years while Alonso played for one of the best teams in the world at the time in Liverool.

Arteta didn't get his move to a big club until he was nearly 29 and even then Arsenal are not a club who competes for trophies anymore while Alonso has been a major cog in a team who the last few years have been considered the 2nd best team in the world.

Alonso has been average so far this season but so have nearly all of Real Madrid players.

Arteta is simply nowhere near as good as Alonso at his best.

Could you imagine Arteta putting in this sort of performance in the Euros?Dictating the tempo of the game(He had over 100 passes) while scoring 2 goals and getting MOTM?:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/9279149/xabi_alonsos_100th_cap_vs_france/

No way can Arteta play to that level bro.

Like I said, please don't bring the Cap's argument here as Del Bosque tends to choose inferior players compared to their more deserving counter parts.

Liverpool and Everton comparison? You realize Everton refused to sell Arteta while the man himself refused to move out of Everton until the club needed to eventually sell him?

-Realize that at Everton, he played a #10 role which gave Xabi time to integrate into VDB's needs a the holding DLP?

-Xabi and Arteta are different players as it was not until Wenger moved Arteta into a Guardiola role that he continued to play within that same role. Xabi is taken over Arteta for reasons over tactical differences which are obvious rather then superiority as that is classic Del Bosque.

-Since Arteta has played into that role he has been nothing short of World Class. Defensively astute, passing excellent numbers and being the system of their midfield.

-Alonso for two years while being excellent just hasn't been as good as Arteta, nothing wrong with admitting that. Defensively he has declined, he shown poor mobility and just isn't having the incisive passing game that he used to if not better than Arteta for Arsenal.

For any fan who has closely watched both, Arteta simply has been performing better and without even a defensive midfield partner to do the dirty work.

The Franchise wrote:How is Iniesta not a center midfielder? Please someone tell me.

How is Wilshere not one either.

Dani I dislike placing roles like everyone these days with RCM, RM, RLCM,ACM, ALAM or all this crap differentiation.

But here is why I don't classify Iniesta as a CM.

When I think of CM's I think of De Rossi, Essien, Keane, Galasek, Baraja.

These are player relatively horizontal to the midfield line who act essentially as the pivot (variances apply obviously) and need a more all round approach since they are the quintessential link to the attack and defence. Depending on the attacking value that can be initiated, they may also go box to box if there isn't a defensive compromise.

Iniesta acts dominantly as the offensive pivot of Barcelona, along with his frequent drifts wide which is trademark of a standard AM position. He just is too advanced and creating along with plays of the attackers to be justified as a CM for me. Frankly its hard to designate his role given the freedom of his play, as he definitely isn't an SS but doesn't position himself (purposefully obviously) to be classified along with standard lines and roles of a CM.

Yes he was a CM within the nascent Guardiola days and especially within the 2004/05 season where he played within the same lines. Yet given the advance freedom Pep gave him along with increasingly drifting wide out of his own creative purposes, I can't classify him within that role.

Arq, I dont see how he isnt a center midfielder. He comes towards the ball, circulates it, moves not just wide but across and back to form triangles. He averages near 100 touches a game, he is picked up by other midfielders most of the time.

I understand your thoughts towards a midfielder, it makes sense..but by that, is Xavi, Gago and others centermidfielders? Gago especially isnt vertical.

I understand the difficulty in determining his role for Barca, because its different from Xavi's for example.

I think in the most basic terms, he doesnt play in between the lines of the opponant, both lines, not the midfield and defence and obviously not the attack and midfield like a Busquets. Anyone to me who doesnt operate in between those 2 lines, on the flanks, nor in the final and defence third simply must be center midfielders if not nothing else.

A CM can still attack B2B without being an AM.

I don't think Essien and De Rossi are CM's. They're box to box players. Players who are complete.

For me a CM is a playmaker like Xavi, Scholes, Iniesta, Modric, Wilshere, Sahin etc.

Yohan Modric wrote:

futbol wrote:Why do people think that Alonso is a "deep-lying playmaker" but Busquets is a "DM"?

Although Busquets is good at passing, his primary role is to protect the defense.

Alonso's primary role is to playmake from the DM area.

Neither of them are CM's.

I disagree with this. For the sake of a healthy discussion, watch this video from last week. It will only take 5 minutes of your life but it's really worth it.



If this isn't primarily "playmaking", what is? 141 attempted passes. 94 % passing accuracy. 10 accurate out of 10 attempted long balls. 1 throughball assist. He's distributing, spraying passes all over the pitch and creating. The majority of the time he's busy in the opponent's half. He's more Pirlo than Makelele in his play but gets mistaken to be the latter just because he's actually apt at defending and surrounded by 3 other GOAT playmakers. He doesn't mainly sit and protect though.

And by the way. Formations are completely overrated. Players are playing a certain style and executing a certain role but this is how Barcelona's average positioning in practice looked like against Malaga last weekend:

I'm not saying Busquets isn't a good playmaker, I'm just saying his primary role is to be a DM. I don't really think he'd be in the side if he was just a deep lying playmaker. He's in the side because of his defensive abilities.

Ideas for the name of Busquets' position/role:

A false DM
A defensive playmaker

"Like I said, please don't bring the Cap's argument here as Del Bosque tends to choose inferior players compared to their more deserving counter parts.

Liverpool and Everton comparison? You realize Everton refused to sell Arteta while the man himself refused to move out of Everton until the club needed to eventually sell him?

-Realize that at Everton, he played a #10 role which gave Xabi time to integrate into VDB's needs a the holding DLP?

-Xabi and Arteta are different players as it was not until Wenger moved Arteta into a Guardiola role that he continued to play within that same role. Xabi is taken over Arteta for reasons over tactical differences which are obvious rather then superiority as that is classic Del Bosque.

-Since Arteta has played into that role he has been nothing short of World Class. Defensively astute, passing excellent numbers and being the system of their midfield.

-Alonso for two years while being excellent just hasn't been as good as Arteta, nothing wrong with admitting that. Defensively he has declined, he shown poor mobility and just isn't having the incisive passing game that he used to if not better than Arteta for Arsenal.

For any fan who has closely watched both, Arteta simply has been performing better and without even a defensive midfield partner to do the dirty work. "

Load of rubbish mate,on the Everton point they would have sold him if they could get the kind of money Liverpool got for Alonso but since there isn't as much a demand for a player of Artetas quality as there is with a better player like Alonso nobody would have ever payed anywhere near £30 million for him.

Fact is Arteta has only done it in the Premier League.I am aware that he has played elsewhere for small teams but that was only for short periods of time.

Alonso is better than Arteta in almost every way,I watched Arteta last year against Milan at the San Siro and he was absolutely invisible.It's a lot easier to look good as a midfielder in the PL as the midfield battles and teams pressing as a unit are often non-existent.Arteta has never been anything special,if he played in La Liga he would be nothing special,just your average midfielder,in fact even in the PL he isn't anything special,just a good midfielder.

I laugh at some of the epl fanboys on here who think just because players perform against rubbish teams with rubbish midfields in the PL that it's comparable with international players competing at the highest level in Europe and International level against much better teams.Again it's much easier to shine in the EPL as the pressing and midfields are so poor,there is a quote by Silva saying it is much easier to find space in between the lines in England and that teams are much worse tactically,especially defending as a team unit.

You are the one with the crazy opinion here by the way,you are in the extreme minority.Alonso has proven he is one of the best midfielder in the world in the PL,La LIga,CL,Euros and World Cup.Mikel"Zero Caps"Arteta isn't in his class and has only done it in the PL.Alonso is better tactically,physically a lot more imposing,he is much more combative in midfield while crucially having a winning mentality unlike Arteta,much better long passes as well as much better long range shooting.Alonso is better at controlling the tempo of a game.Alonso is better at Free Kicks,Corner Kicks and Penalty's.Their first touches are about the same but Alonso has more accurate and quicker short range passing skills even though Arteta is good at this too.Alonso is much more dynamic at his best,like when he plays for Spain and he has the freedom to join the attack at times he is much more dangerous and creative than someone like Arteta.

If you haven't already just watch that video of Alonso owning France and answer truthfully whether Mikel"Zero Caps"Arteta could ever dream of playing like that.

Just compare the teams/players/midfields Alonso has performed against compared to Arteta.No comparison.
Just look what each player has achieved in their careers.No comparison.

In fact I feel ashamed to be even comparing the two players,the gulf in class between them is evident to anyone who isn't biased.

Judging a player by his 0 caps

i consider Alonso a dm to begin with , even though he had moments of brilliance in Real Madrid ,he was never consistent in form neither was what RM needed hence to the fact that Pepe was used , and other different combination there he is a quality player in general but not in top 5 by any mean even for Dm's but of coarse when u base ur argument on clubs and caps you will never get the point

Before I begin you accuse me of bias which is completely invalid due to the following:

-I happen to be a Liverpool fan and have repeatedly stated throughout this debate (along with my time on the forum) that I am Alonso's biggest fan here and am a larger fan of Alonso then I am of Arteta. Since he was a Liverpool legend while Arteta was an Everton legend, you know where I am going with this therefore bias is not the best way to accuse everyone who puts up a debate between two players.

Load of rubbish mate,on the Everton point they would have sold him if they could get the kind of money Liverpool got for Alonso but since there isn't as much a demand for a player of Artetas quality as there is with a better player like Alonso nobody would have ever payed anywhere near £30 million for him.

False. If you are in a big club like Liverpool with a higher release clause, you will go for more money. Everton within that time frame weren't anywhere near Liverpool which means the release clause and price for Arteta wasn't as high along with given the stature of the club during that time period.
You also forget the fact that Manchester City had a 20 million bid rejected for Arteta both by Everton and Arteta himself. Eventually when Arteta couldn't resolve his injury crisis, he was sold for a smaller price due to being in the final year of his contract, being injury prone and sold for the price due to him demanding a leave. So the argument to compare prices is invalid as well. I'm surprised you brought that up given it doesn't hold any weight in the argument at all.

Fact is Arteta has only done it in the Premier League.I am aware that he has played elsewhere for small teams but that was only for short periods of time.

Alonso is better than Arteta in almost every way,I watched Arteta last year against Milan at the San Siro and he was absolutely invisible.It's a lot easier to look good as a midfielder in the PL as the midfield battles and teams pressing as a unit are often non-existent.Arteta has never been anything special,if he played in La Liga he would be nothing special,just your average midfielder,in fact even in the PL he isn't anything special,just a good midfielder.

Cherry picking again there I see. Funny you mention the Arsenal game considering every single one of Arsenal's team along with Wenger's tactics failed within that day. You forgot to mention the return leg where Arteta completely dominated Milan with a 3-0 scoreline. This is not convincing since I myself can bring many many examples of Xabi being outplayed and dominated himself.

I laugh at some of the epl fanboys on here who think just because players perform against rubbish teams with rubbish midfields in the PL that it's comparable with international players competing at the highest level in Europe and International level against much better teams.Again it's much easier to shine in the EPL as the pressing and midfields are so poor,there is a quote by Silva saying it is much easier to find space in between the lines in England and that teams are much worse tactically,especially defending as a team unit.

A little harsh but I don't disagree here as despite being a Liverpool fan I don't hold Premiership tactics and midfields in high regard. While you greatly exaggerate the gap between La Liga and PL midfield's I don't disagree with the basic premise.

You are the one with the crazy opinion here by the way,you are in the extreme minority.Alonso has proven he is one of the best midfielder in the world in the PL,La LIga,CL,Euros and World Cup.Mikel"Zero Caps"Arteta isn't in his class and has only done it in the PL.Alonso is better tactically,physically a lot more imposing,he is much more combative in midfield while crucially having a winning mentality unlike Arteta,much better long passes as well as much better long range shooting.Alonso is better at controlling the tempo of a game.Alonso is better at Free Kicks,Corner Kicks and Penalty's.Their first touches are about the same but Alonso has more accurate and quicker short range passing skills even though Arteta is good at this too.Alonso is much more dynamic at his best,like when he plays for Spain and he has the freedom to join the attack at times he is much more dangerous and creative than someone like Arteta.

Nah the zero caps argument just isn't working.

Arbeloa won the Euro 2012 (with some shoddy performances) as a starting RB while there were several better alternatives to him:
-Cesar Azpilicueta
-Andoni Iraola
Both who are without a doubt better then Arbeloa in every single way.


Joan Capdevilla won the Euro and WC double with Espana (with some average performances) while their were several better alternatives within those specified time frames then the aging, slow and average leftback:

-Jose Enrique
-Naxto Monreal

Both during his years were performing at superior playing levels then Capdevilla during that time was decidedly average for Villarreal.

Then there is Jordi Alba (who despite some of his attacking performances almost cost us several times in Ukraine/Poland) who is exposed for the defensively horrendous player that he is while several LBs on the Euro 2012 win were better then him that same year:

Natxo Monreal
Jon Aurtunexte
Inigo Martinez (Who played LB most of last season)
Didac Vila (Best Spanish LB within the La Liga last season by a mile)

The there are others like David Silva who continued to be ostracised for Juan Mata despite Mata and Cazorla easily trumping him within the same year and in ability. Cesc Fabregas who was panned continually in his first season with Barcelona yet started as a CF despite having far better alternatives in his position. Then there was Chelsea Fernando Torres who is a flop for Espana starting over Fernando Llorente (who had a far better year and is better for Espana) and then guys like Pedro who start over equally better alternatives.

Now predictably you will say: "But VDB won the Euros, World Cup with this squad so STFU"

If you take those alternatives who arguably thrive better within the VDB system and have shown it within their appearances, its not hard to predict that Espana would have equalled if not performed better with the superior alternatives given.


You say Xabi is better tactically while there is little way to prove that given at Arteta is praised for his footballing IQ. You say Xabi is more physically imposing despite being physically outmuscled and out paced by La Liga midfield's frequently these days while Arteta in the PL (with midfields obviously focused on strength) has shown to be little slouch physically and even dominated Yaya Toure physically and footballing wise earlier this season. You say Xabi has a winning mentality unlike Arteta, which frankly stinks of laziness from you part in conceiving something convincing. Then of course Free Kicks while Arteta has over 2-3 FKs scored in 2 years for Arsenal while Xabi hasn't scored any for Real Madrid in recent times and even when Ronaldo isn't hogging the kicks, he hasn't shown the devastating ability Arteta has which won't make sense to you since it seems you don't watch either these days. Corners? Any way to measure that? Penalties? On what basis? Both are excellent on them and crucial for their teams. Yes Xabi is better at long passes while Arteta scores far more goals and scored more long range in the past 2 years then Alonso Yet you miss the point;
You keep ignoring the fact that Arteta played as an AM within Everton as he was known for his excellent dribbling, close control and searing final ball. Alonso these days isn't known for his dribbles or his final through balls even when he is advanced. Arteta has shown far better understanding and control in tighter spaces with more pressure while Xabi isn't exactly Iniesta there. Since Arteta dropped deep with Arsenal he has had only Alex Song as his partner who bombs forward and continually left him exposed with no one to protect him while this year he has NO defensive partner. For Espana Xabi has Busquets beside him along with a horizontal Khedira to protect him.

We can go on an on about individual skills and nuances which is useless given that Arteta hasn't had the chance to prove himself for Espana along with the fact that he simply has been more influential for his team then Alonso has for Madrid. Alonso in the recent two years has been criticized for his lack of mobility, decline of playmaking ability and just the decline of himself while Arteta has been praised endlessly in England and the Basque/Spanish media for his very influential performances for Arsenal. Some Real Madrid fans (Nick, Sports, Doc) argue themselves how Xabi has declined (or needs rest etc) and that Madrid look more fluid, less static and more dynamic without him. Arsenal without Arteta looks like shit. Yes La Liga vs PL and Arsenal vs Madrid higher levels etc etc yet you forget the base debate is who in the last TWO years has been more influential and has shown more range in his game and that is Mikel Arteta.


If you are tempted to the Zero Cap argument again and who has won more (which is a BS argument for obvious reasons) then comprehend that Del Bosque measures players not out of superiority but who will fit his tactical system to the closest bill (counting out that he doesn't even scout games) and measuring balance of individual capabilities, how they blend with the player and the system. Its not black and white as much more goes beyond to these compare these two players who happen to be quite different.

Frankly I don't even know why I responded considering your exaggeration between the two just killed it for me.

Anyone that argues that Iniesta is not a CM is being pedantic.

City offered 20 million for Arteta? Wow he must be great then,I guess players like Milner must be worth £26 million.Look at some of the shit they have spent fortunes on,can't believe your using that joke of a club as an example.

"Cesar Azpilicueta
-Andoni Iraola
Both who are without a doubt better then Arbeloa in every single way. "



Arbeloa had a good Euros by the way.Just because he's not Dani Alves you think he's average.Same for Capdevilla,he was clearly a good player and didn't put a foot wrong in 2010.

Arteta controlled the 2nd leg against Milan? Just no,Milan were complacent in the 1st Half and there gameplan was to sit back and just defend which was a stupid tactic,in the 2nd Half when Milan were actually trying their best they completely dominated the game,including the midfield and had more oppurtunitys than Arsenal to score.Arteta was the main reason why Arsenal were dominated over the 2 legs,he got outplayed by 34 years old Van Bommel and Nocireno which isn't a surprise as Arteta isn't even used to playing against midfielders of that quality never mind some of the players/midfields Alonso has performed against throughout his illustrours career.I stand by my statement that Arteta would be a average player or just above average player in La Liga,players like Borja Valero are easily better than him(I know he plays in Italy now),so are players like Ever Banega and Benat.Never mind comparing him to Alonso.Arteta wouldn't even be a top 10 midfielder in La Liga.


Didn't even bother reading the rest of it because I couldn't be bothered wasting my time after you said Azpilicueta is better than Arbeloa,not only that but you implied he's better defensvily than Arbeloa which is just laughable.After making deranged statements like this reading the part were you compare Arteta to Alonso in terms of attributes would have just been a exercise in futility.I covered it perfectly in my last post.

Alonso has been brilliant overall for Madrid,to say he hasn't is delusional,he is essentially a deep lying play maker and Defensive midfielder at the same time because of Jose's rubbish tactics and he regularly has to help out on the left flank because Ronaldo doesn't defend.He has been run into the ground by Jose over the last few years and now because he hasn't been great this season while the rest of the team has been shite you choose to ignore how good he was for Madrid before this season.

Can't be bothered arguing with someone so deluded on this issue any more so I will just compare both their achievements in the game.And it's a fact that Arbeloa has only performed in the EPl and shitty SPL where as Alonso has excelled at the highest levels for both Club and Country winning every type of trophy you can win.No body will remember Arteta when he retires,Alonso is a legend.

Mikel"Zero Caps" Arteta at nearly the age of 31:

Intertoto Cup
SPL league title



Xabi Alonso who is not even a full year older than him :

Liverpool

FA Cup (1): 2005–06
FA Community Shield (1): 2006
UEFA Champions League (1): 2004–05
UEFA Super Cup (1): 2005
Real Madrid

La Liga (1): 2011–12
Copa del Rey (1): 2010–11
Supercopa de España (1): 2012

Spain

FIFA World Cup (1): 2010
UEFA European Championship (2): 2008, 2012
[edit]Individual
Don Balón Award (1): 2003
La Liga Best Midfielder (1): 2012
FIFA/FIFPro World XI (2): 2011, 2012
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament (1): 2012



And by the way winning mentality can be the difference between a talented player and a great player.

Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Cesc and Thiago.

"Cesar Azpilicueta
-Andoni Iraola
Both who are without a doubt better then Arbeloa in every single way. "

You laughing at this shows how its clear you haven't seen Iraola and Azpilicueta over the years. Ask this whole forum and not a single one will take Arbeloa over these two. Its ridiculous how you rate Arbeloa over players you haven't seen. Azpilicueta and Iraola are superior without a doubt.

Arbeloa had a good Euros by the way.Just because he's not Dani Alves you think he's average.Same for Capdevilla,he was clearly a good player and didn't put a foot wrong in 2010.

Arbeloa had a very average Euros. Was troubled largely vs Croatia, italia in the group stage and by Ribery of France. Doesn't mean the alternatives wouldn't have performed better.

Capdevilla was solid if not spectacular but vs Paraguay, Switzerland and an average showing in the final didn't convince anyone. Although I would praise him far more then Arbeloa who is god awful.

Aside from the point.

You bring the awards argument which is obsolete and doesn't ad anything to the debate as otherwise Guivarch or Sulley Muntari would be legends.

Similar to the Athletic Club thread you jump to conclusions without actually comprehending my point. You will see nowhere within my debate that Xabi has been poor yet I've said he hasn't been at his usual level for over 6-8 months now while Arteta since his move to Arsenal has been more influential in the same role than Xabi in the PAST TWO YEARS.

I won't even discuss Everton given their different roles and how you clearly did not watch Arteta in Everton.

Conclusive point is Xabi has been excellent yet Arteta in the past 2 years has shown superior range to his game along with being more influential.

And then the winning mentality argument again which you haven't quantified by any measure except that "Xabi has a better winning mentality" Hilarious stuff right there considering Arteta's carried Everton on his back along with Arsenal's midfield last season without a defensive partner.

Thats it.