Jogi Löw

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Post by McLewis Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:30 pm

Interesting debate erupted about this guy in that Mou thread Sports put up. Some say he's not that good a coach because his tactics are not up to snuff, others say he's been pivotal to every major German success since 2006.

My question for this debate is this: Is Löw's success down to his own personal coaching decisions and tactics or is this simply masked by the brilliance of the players under his management?

Keep it civil, please....much more civil than what I saw in that thread.

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Post by Onyx Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:42 pm

What have Germany even won since 2006?

I don't think a manager can be successful without winning anything. Sure their youth, playing style etc may have improved, but he hasn't won anything.

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Post by justdoit_ Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:04 pm

His reluctance (and inability) to fight fire with fire in terms of team selection against teams of equal or greater quality has forced me to sour on him.

His handling of the match against Italy was hysterically bad, especially when I though he hit it right on the nose a few days earlier against Greece by allowing his most explosive attacking unit (Schurrle, Reus, Ozil, Klose) free reign to go out and take victory.

He also should have benched Schweinsteiger.

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Post by Ganso Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:05 pm

"Success" is pretty debatable,I mean,shouldn't they have won a trophy by now?He has a golden generation but no silverware in 3 competitions,and that's what really matters when we talk about a NT like Germany.I would also like to add that a lot of Germans are growing tired of him and it hit the fan on that 4-4 game vs Sweden.

About him riding on his player's quality, I don't think that's happening.He has changed the starting players a lot during all these years and reached a final and 2 semis.He is a good coach,but something is wrong with his defensive tactics and his team always seem to crumble when they are under pressure.Low changes his team too much and give Khedira and Schwinsteiger too much freedom
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Post by The Franchise Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:47 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:What have Germany even won since 2006?

I don't think a manager can be successful without winning anything. Sure their youth, playing style etc may have improved, but he hasn't won anything.

Bit silly. He has to come up against what people say is the best international team ever...how can you be expected to win when facing that?

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Post by The Franchise Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:50 pm

On topic, I think he is a very good coach. Germany have a very strong squad, which is due to the player development more than him, however he has managed to mold functional teams from front to back and they play good football with good principles.

I am a little disappointing with his selections in some games, more so the big one's.

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Post by rwo power Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:52 pm

I'm confident that he has by now analyzed his mistakes and won't repeat them again. I heard his last interviews and he appeared as if he actually understood his mistakes.
2008 - team really wasn't good enough to win the final against Spain
2010 - here the result could have been different if it hadn't been for Toni Kroos' miss
2012 - for some rather inexplicable reason, here Löw actually chickened out, but I put this down to the usual Germany-Italy trauma
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Post by RealGunner Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:00 pm

Think for 2010, Muller missing the game was more vital than Kroos' miss.

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Post by VanDeezNuts Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:20 pm

rwo power wrote:I'm confident that he has by now analyzed his mistakes and won't repeat them again. I heard his last interviews and he appeared as if he actually understood his mistakes.
2008 - team really wasn't good enough to win the final against Spain
2010 - here the result could have been different if it hadn't been for Toni Kroos' miss
2012 - for some rather inexplicable reason, here Löw actually chickened out, but I put this down to the usual Germany-Italy trauma

i feel the same way and honestly really the biggest fault of his imo was the 2012 match against italy. the tactics were all wrong, no denying that.

its no coincidence that germany have become such a young yet mature football team playing such attractive football under Low. people forget how much of a different team germany used to put together before Low, never such creativity and possession based attacking.

he took the chance and put his faith in these young players and it has payed off with dividends, but like rwo said- 2008 team not good enough, 2010- very unlucky not to reach the final, 2012- this is where Low really screwed it. definitely had a team capable of winning the title but the tactics were wrong against italy.

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Post by rwo power Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:33 pm

RealGunner wrote:Think for 2010, Muller missing the game was more vital than Kroos' miss.
Well, but Müller was out, so Löw had no chance but to field a team without him. And that team wasn't actually bad, they simply missed going up 1:0, which would have turned everything topsy-turvy.
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Post by Onyx Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:52 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Yohan Modric wrote:What have Germany even won since 2006?

I don't think a manager can be successful without winning anything. Sure their youth, playing style etc may have improved, but he hasn't won anything.

Bit silly. He has to come up against what people say is the best international team ever...how can you be expected to win when facing that?


So what makes him so special if he isn't winning anything?

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Post by The Franchise Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:08 pm

So what your saying is, no NT coach has been great the past 4-6 years other than VDB?

Really?
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Post by Onyx Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:10 pm

The Franchise wrote:So what your saying is, no NT coach is great other than VDB?

Really?

How can a coach be considered great if he isn't winning anything?

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Post by The Franchise Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:25 pm

Because only one team can win.

The coach is just a coach, he can only do as much as he players can allow.

To say Bielsa wasnt a great coach during his time, Tabarez hasnt been, Lippi hasnt been, Antic hasnt been, Hitzfeld hasnt been and a few other is just silly.

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Post by Onyx Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:33 pm

What makes a coach successful? Winning trophies. Just because a coach plays an attractive style of football, promotes youth etc, doesn't mean he's successful. He has to win trophies. Otherwise any coach can be considered great.

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Post by The Franchise Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:35 pm

Rubbish, utter rubbish.

There can only be one winner, usually its the team with the best players. If you dont coach this team, you probably wont win...and because you dont coach that team, according to you, your not great.


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Post by Onyx Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:07 am

So what makes a coach great?

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Post by The Franchise Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:12 am

Getting the most out what he has.
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Post by Onyx Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:13 am

I'm sure a lot of coaches do that, doesn't mean they're great.

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Post by The Franchise Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:17 am

According to you there is only 1 great NT coach so yeah...
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Post by Onyx Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:23 am

NT's don't compete in 2 major tournaments every season. Club teams do. So there aren't going to be many great coaches in the NT scene.

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Post by The Franchise Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:24 am

Laughing Yeah sure.
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Post by VanDeezNuts Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:38 am

come on mt, thats like saying spain are the only great NT. there are quite a few great NTs if you watch football, and there are quite a few great NT managers.

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Post by the xcx Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:28 am

Hes a good coach as long as he is driven by the talent of the players and usually nails it when he is picking the starting XI.

However hes a tactically inept therefore unable to turn the ties in favor of him. (Spain, Italy etc.)
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Post by McLewis Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:50 am

Some interesting points brought up.

I personally think Jogi has stagnated a bit. I think other NTs are finding Germany out, as tends to happen when a coach sticks with the same system for too long. The players have changed of course, but many teams know now that Germany just aren't solid defensively. They know how to pressure that backline and due to lack of experience playing together, it often cracks under the pressure.

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