Thierry Henry Among The GOATS?

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Post by The 14th Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:51 am

I sometimes ponder as to why i have literally never heard or read anyone imply or simply put thierry henry into a phrase that invoked what i consider a proper judgement of the player..

" Thierry Henry arguably among the top 5 players of the last 30 years."

And bare in mind by players for the majority i mean forwards or advanced midfielders which in reality are always the ones that get the most spotlight. Looking back, argentina is given a whole lot of credit for being the country which saw the birth of both Diego Maradona and Lionel Messi which as we all know, along with players like pele and di stefano ( which is also argentinian) are always given the major spotlight concerning the greatest players discussion...But why are the frenchmen left out a bit?

I mean they get their recognition specially zidane, but there is also platini and henry to look at...When we decide to pick forwards/ advanced midfielders of the type that always get the main recognition in the modern age, maradona and messi are given the knod, but can't france go into the argument as well, for arguably creating an even bigger handful of out of this world giants?

Maybe what i consider the lack of spotlight on henry comes from the fact that he is has a french passport and that he didnt play for a big club like real madrid. Look at platini and henry and you will always see that they are recognized as greats but nothing more, while zidane is elevated into god status which i can arguably say that wouldnt be the case had he not played for madrid..Obviously the three are of the best players the planet has seen but i feel the french dont get enough recognition overall. Platini, zidane, and henry are all arguably the best of their type in their time, yet we never hear or read much about atleast two of them..

On to the main point, isnt Thierry Henry arguably criminally underrated? look at his stats on wikipedia as to what he really did at arsenal.

He had/has an incredible combination of speed, talent, strength, shot making, consistency, and flair to be able to compete with any giant of the game, and in modern times no one can touch him in an overall level as a goal scorer and forward of the type other than lionel messi which has produced results and has the talent that many consider out of this world..Who as a goal scorer has had a better record, excluding messi than thierry henry?

Not since the age of Gerd Muller have people seen such things..Ronaldo? He's not even close to being the physical marvel and overall player than henry was. Ronaldo is a goal scorer and he and Messi have teams that have been built to maximize the player's potential as a goal scorer.

We see players like falcao, gomez, benzema, i mean do you really fail to agree that if they had the systems of integration for maximization of results that messi and ronaldo had, that they wouldnt score very similar results? ( of course a counter argument could come out of this but henry actually proved his worth for a long time in not such of a maximized area.)

Thierry Henry arrived at arsenal as a failed winger, and wenger decided to attempt to turn him into a goal scoring machine which in turn resulted in an amazing 26 goals in his debut season...

The stats are clear, Thierry Henry as a complete package has showed a longevity that many can't even compare too, not even messi which still needs years to complete his resume which will destroy henry's even more so that it already has in comparison.

Is there really a more complete forward with more talent, and results to back it up than thierry henry in the last 30 years? ( other than messi)? Henry was and has never even be called upon to be recognized as a goat contender..

And imagine what he could have arguably scored under a system which maximized potential as much as real madrid and barcelona offer to their two gems?

Lets look at maradona, in the world cup he gave the performance of a life time, but does the legend of that 1 month saga in which he won with a very capable argentina, really make a great argument when it comes to incapsulating maradona as a head and shoulders goat contender? Look at michel platini who played at a very similar position..he had much longer and great longetivity, great effect and legend in his NT and scored plentiful more goals than maradona did around the same era, yet he never gets talked about anywhere nearly as in a goat context as maradona..

Excluding messi considering his main career is only at midpoint i go as far to say that theirry henry has been the greatest forward in terms of numbers since gerd muller, and while combining his amazing skill and longetivity, the best overall forward in the last 30 years.

A freak of nature that delivered for a long time, and arguably could have done more in a better system.

Is there an argument that suggest that there was a better forward? As a package in terms of numbers , longetivity, and success i think not.

Thierry Henry for me is the greatest forward aside from messi for what he showed, can you show me a better argument?

And a two little subtopics, isnt maradona under certain contexts, criminally overated as a whole, and many frenchmen underated as well..?

Who would take Maradona over Platini and why? What really is the argument to make someone as old as pele is in terms of the generation, and maradona in terms of results as good as a modern footballer with even greater results?

As crazy as it my sound, don't men like platini and Thierry Henry deserve to be more into a goat discussion even more so than maradona or pele. Other than that the main contributors to the goat arguments are the world cups they won with their WORLD CUP WINNING TEAMS.

But there are many valid arguments some didnt even think existed.

Maradona is overated to an extreme degree, a world cup apparently did more than entire careers and actual aspects in players..
Thierry henry has a good case for being the best forward of the last 30 aside from messi DUE TO RESULTS AND SKILL, and is underated.
The french men as a whole are underlooked at, while many others are far too overated as a whole...

Would you disagree to those 3 opinions of mine?

Let me just add, henry has one of the most complete resumes ever, and is the top scorer in france's history, and all this in the modern age.

How are guys like pele and maradona but ahead of him? As crazy as it may sound to some.

Bare in mind pele scored goals in the brazilian league in an era of football that is 40 years old, while maradona if anything had an under whelming career in europe compared to dozens...

Shouldnt guys like henry be the real people we are looking at?
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Post by DuringTheWar Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:29 pm

The 14th wrote:I On to the main point, isnt Thierry Henry arguably criminally underrated? look at his stats on wikipedia as to what he really did at arsenal.

Henry does have the credit he deserves, he is often called the best premier league player since the premier league began, that is enough. Is he an all time great up with maradona and messi? no chance, im an arsenal fan, but no chance.

The 14th wrote:
Lets look at maradona, in the world cup he gave the performance of a life time, but does the legend of that 1 month saga in which he won with a very capable argentina, really make a great argument when it comes to incapsulating maradona as a head and shoulders goat contender? Look at michel platini who played at a very similar position..he had much longer and great longetivity, great effect and legend in his NT and scored plentiful more goals than maradona did around the same era, yet he never gets talked about anywhere nearly as in a goat context as maradona..

Your talking like maradona was wc 1986 and thats it, mate his goal record is near identical to platini, he was a record top scorer 5 times in argentina, they both won serie a twice, maradona won the argentinian league, platini won the french league but that was considered a weak league. The only thing that platini has over maradona is the european cup, and boy, if maradona had gone to juventus, and platini to napoli, there is no chance that would be the case.
And to answer your question, yes, that one month does encapsulate him as a goat contender. World cup is the biggest, most prestigous prize in football, and he dazzled the watching world like no one else did or has done in it since, it is legit.

The 14th wrote:
Maradona is overated to an extreme degree, a world cup apparently did more than entire careers and actual aspects in players..

again, your are looking at his world cup and nothing else he did in his career, that is unfair in the extreme! this does happen sometimes, people talk so much about his world cup, they forget everything else he did! here is a very sobering fact for you, if you take away the goals henry has scored in the mls, maradona the attacking midfielder, scored more goals in his career than him
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Post by The 14th Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:30 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
The 14th wrote:I On to the main point, isnt Thierry Henry arguably criminally underrated? look at his stats on wikipedia as to what he really did at arsenal.

Henry does have the credit he deserves, he is often called the best premier league player since the premier league began, that is enough. Is he an all time great up with maradona and messi? no chance, im an arsenal fan, but no chance.

The 14th wrote:
Lets look at maradona, in the world cup he gave the performance of a life time, but does the legend of that 1 month saga in which he won with a very capable argentina, really make a great argument when it comes to incapsulating maradona as a head and shoulders goat contender? Look at michel platini who played at a very similar position..he had much longer and great longetivity, great effect and legend in his NT and scored plentiful more goals than maradona did around the same era, yet he never gets talked about anywhere nearly as in a goat context as maradona..

Your talking like maradona was wc 1986 and thats it, mate his goal record is near identical to platini, he was a record top scorer 5 times in argentina, they both won serie a twice, maradona won the argentinian league, platini won the french league but that was considered a weak league. The only thing that platini has over maradona is the european cup, and boy, if maradona had gone to juventus, and platini to napoli, there is no chance that would be the case.
And to answer your question, yes, that one month does encapsulate him as a goat contender. World cup is the biggest, most prestigous prize in football, and he dazzled the watching world like no one else did or has done in it since, it is legit.

The 14th wrote:
Maradona is overated to an extreme degree, a world cup apparently did more than entire careers and actual aspects in players..

again, your are looking at his world cup and nothing else he did in his career, that is unfair in the extreme! this does happen sometimes, people talk so much about his world cup, they forget everything else he did! here is a very sobering fact for you, if you take away the goals henry has scored in the mls, maradona the attacking midfielder, scored more goals in his career than him
Well the majority of people imo look at things the wrong way. Compared to Ronaldo the brazilian for example henry had a much better career on his side and showed longetivity as well, while everyone would just opt to give ronaldo the vote for being better because of 1 great season at barca and a world cup where he won with a great team.

People like to go for the fairytell win that for a big analyzing of a whole career.

You didn't answer my question as to who has had a better overall showing of talent and goals than henry in the last years.

Instead you opt to go and defend maradona..Please..maradona had a great tournament and that makes him the greatest of all time contender? Thierry Henry actually showed his worth at arsenal by producing at a great quantity, do you think those goals he made in the argentinian league make a difference? Its like me saying neymar is one of the best in the world for being scoring tons in brazil, its just not right...

Then you decided to talk about possible results had he gone to another place..Ok valid, but he didnt, i said the same about henry but still my point has a bit more of a meaning considering that maradona was a drug user, not as proffesional in football, and arguably didnt have the overall qualities to make him a grand proffesional.

Its like me saying what would have happened had ronaldo not gotten injured in inter, its so irrelevant to a point, while henry did show it all.

I mean look at how flawed your argument is, you are saying that a basic tournament overall helps surmount the career of a emotionally and proffesionally disturbed player which had a pretty meh career in europe overall in which he never scored more than 21 goals and then try to defend him by talking about irrelevant possibilities comparable to people saying what had ronaldo not been injured...It didnt happen so you dont know...we can only judge from what we saw, and what i saw is a player who apart from the world cup has hardly an argument compared to guys like thierry henry and platini who showed it in almost every way possible while being a proffesional.

I mean even the mental stability of maradona is a factor in the rating of him as a player. And you try defending him bringing in goals from argentina? LOL Imagine how many a guy like ronaldo or henry or messi would score there...

He scores alot in his home country which doesnt even have the best league in south america and fails to do anything of great worth in europe.

Its an insult for me for people to name maradona over a guy like platini when considering a career and other aspects such as longetivity and intelligence. And for people to name ronaldo the greatest ever for 1 season and a good world cup..

Henry had 8 great seasons in arsenal and even in his 30's still had a great time at barca. And his speed and power barely left him while maradona was nothing but a shadow in comparison.

THen someone might say oh but henry didnt have a good career in france...he was the man of the match for france more than any other player in two euros and the confederation cup, while being the top scorer for france in all as well.

Look at platini as a case study as a player, and results and he massacres maradona..the world cup? Not enough to be valid enough to post 1 month time of work over more than a decade of brilliance of men like platini and henry.

Maradona is overated.
Henry and Platini deserve more credit.
People often look at things from an arguably illogical way.

I still stand by my point.

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Post by DuringTheWar Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:46 pm

Neymar scoring a lot in brazil has nothing to do with maradona in the argentinian league. Argentina and south american domestic football in general were much stronger than they currently are. You are coming from an extremely eurocentric point of view.
I pointed out apart from the european cup maradona won all the same european domestic titles platini did (serie a, coppa italia), dont know why you ignored it, you have nothing to say about it? please stop ACTING as if maradona was nothing without the world cup, until you get rid of that nonsense idea this discussion is pointless

fyi, people dont give a damn about the throphies R9 won, they think he was better than henry because he was far more talented than henry, as was maradona
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Post by DuringTheWar Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:48 pm

in fact maradonas goal/game ratio in argentina was pretty much the same in the european la liga
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Post by The 14th Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:01 pm

Winning trophies doesnt equivilate to perofrming the same. In europe platini owns maradona in career. And the argentinian league is irrelevant, in a comparison of quality its a step down if not several from europe, hence maradona never scored more than 23.

Face it maradona's career as a whole compared to others is just not as good, specially considering that he scored the majority of the goals in a league several steps down even from the french league, or italian league when compared to platini.

If it wasnt for the world cup maradona wouldnt be as over glorfied, please who had a convincingly better squad than argentina then?

And putting career aside, how did he prove in a consistent basis that he had the entire package?

You sound like you are getting a bit angry yet still bring no logical argument that can beat my conclusion...

Who's been better than henry and why?

Ronaldo and maradona more talented? At several aspects in a game where much more is needed, including a proffesional and inteligent brain?

Compared to the career resumes and the football players in them selves ronaldo and maradona shouldnt be automatically proclaimed higher that platini and henry which overall did much more and were better footballers in so many ways...

EUROCENTRIC..PLEASE..lol

Youre not gonna beat me in the maradona part mate, no offense.
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Post by DuringTheWar Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:27 pm

The 14th wrote:And the argentinian league is irrelevant, in a comparison of quality its a step down if not several from europe, hence maradona never scored more than 23..

Back it up then. Ignoring my comments again, i already wrote maradonas goal/game ratio was almost identical in the EUROPEAN la liga as it was in argentina.

The 14th wrote:
specially considering that he scored the majority of the goals in a league several steps down even from the french league,


i want to take you seriously, but that is a joke

The 14th wrote:please who had a convincingly better squad than argentina then?


first you say argentina had a rubbish league to demean maradona, now your implying the national teams squad which was comprised mostly of players playing in argentina was the worlds strongest, to demean maradona? do i have to point out the flaws in this?

The 14th wrote:And putting career aside, how did he prove in a consistent basis that he had the entire package?

wat are you actually talking about?
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Post by The 14th Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:42 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:
The 14th wrote:And the argentinian league is irrelevant, in a comparison of quality its a step down if not several from europe, hence maradona never scored more than 23..

Back it up then. Ignoring my comments again, i already wrote maradonas goal/game ratio was almost identical in the EUROPEAN la liga as it was in argentina.

The 14th wrote:
specially considering that he scored the majority of the goals in a league several steps down even from the french league,


i want to take you seriously, but that is a joke

The 14th wrote:please who had a convincingly better squad than argentina then?


first you say argentina had a rubbish league to demean maradona, now your implying the national teams squad which was comprised mostly of players playing in argentina was the worlds strongest, to demean maradona? do i have to point out the flaws in this?

The 14th wrote:And putting career aside, how did he prove in a consistent basis that he had the entire package?

wat are you actually talking about?
Stop hanging onto the goal ratio, you love maradona and will die protecting him but i beat all your arguments already and i refuse to go further after the following because this is a waste of time since you are too blind to look at the big picture.

He goes from scoring 43 goals in argentina to a max of 23 in all of his european career..Compared to platini he did not have a even close to such a great career as platini on all levels, and to even doubt that the argentian level is not below europe's means you are either delusioned or uneducated, no offense. Dont have to prove anything lol.

The entire package in a consistent basis replies to being a total proffesional that could handle himself without being a diva, or a drug user, compared to a guy like messi or henry maradona was no proffesional in many factors.

Argentina had a whole lot of good players that were good enough to be able to win the world cup, just because they had good players in argentina doesnt mean that the whole league is automatically as hard or harder of a place than europe.

Why did maradona never do the same in europe then? We never saw him score more than 23?

This argument about maradona is over, he is overated compared to a guy like platini on club side, and as a whole career and as a player other than the world cup i dont see any case for putting maradona so high up the pedestal over someone like platini.

Maradona is overated, i mean look at your frame of logic...platini had a way better club career yet you put maradona over because 1 month of work in the world cup, and then you bring goals from the argentinian league to protect him?

Why didnt he do the same in europe then? U implying argentina had an even better league than serie a for example?

Please all you hang on to goal ratio in la liga, while an educated person would automatically see that as a flawed argument as soon as they see it. Its like you dont even know what maradona actually did, if you did this wouldnt be an argument.

You are the type of people that take ronaldo's 1 season and his world cup with brazil over 10 seasons of amazing play by henry.

You knew the european argument existed and yet opted to go to the excuse that he didnt play in juve, or in a better team, well then he has no argument in that case since we can only base on reality.

If i were to choose between taking henry and platini or maradona and ronaldo i take the french, as both showed their worth in much more many ways and were real proffesionals without mental or physical issues as the ones maradona and ronaldo had.

Please..youre arguing with me a la liga ratio..youre hanging on o very little now.

Ronaldo was more talented that henry? Ahahah henry had a decade of brilliance, and one of the most complete resumes of all time.

Go ahead and take your maradona and ronaldo and place them above messi which you probably do to.

This is over mate as it would be a waste of time answering your questions based off what i consider faulty logic no offense btw buddy. Very Happy
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Post by BeautifulGame Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:10 pm

Maradona virtually carried Napoli to Seria A titles.So not sure how Platini or anyone for that matter can own Maradona on performances based on Europe.

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Post by Don Carlo Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:47 pm

Henry was a great player & at his peak was the best striker in the world, he was also the best player in the premiership at his best.

He ranks up there with any modern striker & has a decent claim to be better than any of them outside of Marco van Basten & R9 Ronaldo, who I regard as the 2 best in the past 30 years.
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Post by Valkyrja Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:39 pm

Ronaldo pre-injury was on a whole different level really. Ronaldo would have hit 100/season if he would play in this times in Real or Barca instead of Cristiano or Messi IMO.
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Post by Don Carlo Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:31 pm

I think R9 Ronaldo gets a bit overrated tbh, I mean I rate the guy highly, he is a top 15 all time player probably & 1 of the best strikers of all time but Zidane was the better & more consistent performer in Ronaldo`s own era, there can be little doubt Zidane was the best of his era, R9 I would say was 2nd best.

I rank Van Basten as better & more complete than Ronaldo as well, they were both equal as goalscorers at their best but Marco was the more complete player with the better footballing brain.

I`m not on here having a go at R9 because as I said, I rank him & MVB as the top 2 strikers in the past 30 years but I hear people rank him over Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc & to me that is just wrong, great player but definitely not the greatest, cheers.
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Post by Valkyrja Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:40 pm

Don Carlo wrote:I think R9 Ronaldo gets a bit overrated tbh, I mean I rate the guy highly, he is a top 15 all time player probably & 1 of the best strikers of all time but Zidane was the better & more consistent performer in Ronaldo`s own era, there can be little doubt Zidane was the best of his era, R9 I would say was 2nd best.

I rank Van Basten as better & more complete than Ronaldo as well, they were both equal as goalscorers at their best but Marco was the more complete player with the better footballing brain.

I`m not on here having a go at R9 because as I said, I rank him & MVB as the top 2 strikers in the past 30 years but I hear people rank him over Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc & to me that is just wrong, great player but definitely not the greatest, cheers.

Zidane hit his prime after R9 ... infact R9 between 95-99 showed a great level of consistency.
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Post by Don Carlo Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:21 pm

Kizu wrote:
Don Carlo wrote:I think R9 Ronaldo gets a bit overrated tbh, I mean I rate the guy highly, he is a top 15 all time player probably & 1 of the best strikers of all time but Zidane was the better & more consistent performer in Ronaldo`s own era, there can be little doubt Zidane was the best of his era, R9 I would say was 2nd best.

I rank Van Basten as better & more complete than Ronaldo as well, they were both equal as goalscorers at their best but Marco was the more complete player with the better footballing brain.

I`m not on here having a go at R9 because as I said, I rank him & MVB as the top 2 strikers in the past 30 years but I hear people rank him over Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc & to me that is just wrong, great player but definitely not the greatest, cheers.

Zidane hit his prime after R9 ... infact R9 between 95-99 showed a great level of consistency.
Kizu wrote:
Don Carlo wrote:I think R9 Ronaldo gets a bit overrated tbh, I mean I rate the guy highly, he is a top 15 all time player probably & 1 of the best strikers of all time but Zidane was the better & more consistent performer in Ronaldo`s own era, there can be little doubt Zidane was the best of his era, R9 I would say was 2nd best.

I rank Van Basten as better & more complete than Ronaldo as well, they were both equal as goalscorers at their best but Marco was the more complete player with the better footballing brain.

I`m not on here having a go at R9 because as I said, I rank him & MVB as the top 2 strikers in the past 30 years but I hear people rank him over Pele, Maradona, Cruyff etc & to me that is just wrong, great player but definitely not the greatest, cheers.

Zidane hit his prime after R9 ... infact R9 between 95-99 showed a great level of consistency.

And Zidane was in his prime from about 1997-2002... there was that cross-over period of 97-99 were both were classed as the best 2 players in the world & Zidane outshone him.

I`m not knocking Ronaldo, he was a fabulous player & an ATG striker but Zidane was the best of that era & proved it more often than not when up against all of his rivals for top spot - Ronaldo, Figo & Rivaldo... he even outshone a 26 year old Ronaldinho at age 34 on the biggest stage (WC 06) when well past his best. Ronaldo did make a tremendous comeback in WC 02 & that has helped his legendary status as it should... but he`s still below Zizou, no doubt Cool
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Post by Sushi Master Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:38 pm

Definitely a France GOAT and a PL GOAT. Worldwide, he never really made it big due to Arsenal's lack of CL, as in reputation.

Player wise, I rank him near Ronaldo status, no kidding. At peak he was untouchable.
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Post by Don Carlo Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:40 pm

The 14th wrote:" Thierry Henry arguably among the top 5 players of the last 30 years."

Staying on topic, no, Henry was a great player but no way he was top 5 since 1982.

Maradona, Platini, Zico, Van Basten, Zidane, R9 Ronaldo, Messi are all definitely ahead of him & then you get the guys that have a good argument to be ahead of him like Matthaus, Gullit, Rijkaard, Klinsmann, Romario, C. Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Bergkamp, Raul, Figo, Rivaldo, Baggio, Batistuta, the list goes on..... & that`s me not even going into the defenders like Baresi, Maldini etc.
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Post by The 14th Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:27 am

Read my post again carlo, if you would have understood me, you would have realized i said when i mean "players" im referring to forwards which are basically the only ones that are considered as overall goats in football.

Van Basten did not have the athletic qualities that henry had, and ronaldo only had 1 great year in barcelona along with several good years at madrid that still dont touch henry's legacy imo.

When talking about henry you are talking about someone who in 8 years at arsenal had a better goal scoring record than anyone, basically what people base ronaldo off is his talent which was never fulfilled like henry's, that is why i take henry over both van basten and ronaldo, because he proved more, for a longer time, he fullfilled his potential, and id rather have that in my team, than players that serve as doubts and injury precausions like ronaldo and van basten.

Aside from him, the only goal scorer comparable is cr7 but i doubt anyone in his right mind would take that overall package over henry, henry was far deeper and smarter than cr7.

And i made an argument as to why i consider what henry did in his career as way more impressive than perhaps maradona, who never scored more than 23 in europe, and if it wasnt for 1 month worth's of time in the world cup 86, would never be as remembered considering his club time, and that doesnt cut it for me.

A guy like henry who was the player of the tournament for france in euro 2000, 2004, an confederations cup 2003, and did the max he could for more than a decade and still going, proves to me much more than drug abuser maradona, an injury prone fat ronaldo.

With all due respect to them, its like me looking at 3 super cars, 2 of them ( van basten and ronaldo) look better and even arguably run better for sometime, but the 3rd one ( henry) looks amazing and runs faster and for longer periods of time than the other two. There has to be more substance to the argument...because of 1 season at barca and a world cup win, he should be placed higher than a decade + of consistent brilliance from henry?

Potential and forseen "talent" is not enough for me.

I take henry over both van basten and ronaldo.

Only forward goal scorer infront of him is messi imo.
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Post by LeSwagg James Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:06 am

He is outshone by Ronaldo.. 90% of people would put Ronaldo (R9) above Henry

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Post by sportsczy Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:54 pm

As a club player, absolutely for Arsenal... not Monaco or Juventus. As a NT player, absolutely not lol.

I think he found himself the perfect system with Wenger. You take him out of that and he was not great, as proven with Monaco, Juve and NT.

He is not at all popular in France.
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Post by billy_gr Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:11 am

one of the best modern forwards for me. one of the best i saw consistently
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