Re: xavi vs pirlo

by The Franchise Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:48 pm

Great wall anaolgy, never heard it before lol

Yes, Xavi last season more than ever got in behind the defence and made runs off the ball. Most goals he ever scored in a season.

I think it helps having Busquets, Iniesta and Messi who is dropping deeper and deeper as the years go by. They often take care of possession to a level high enough for Xavi to make those runs. Perhaps a few years ago, if he made those sames runs it would cause us trouble because we didnt have the players with that same comfort level on the ball.

Intresting final point. I do think Pirlo's style is something not everyone likes. But I do indeed recognise the brillince of him, I would be a fool not to.

by MindGames7 Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:07 pm

Pirlo is beautiful to watch, but that might just be because he's a beautiful man and Xavi's.... got a nice personality.

Actually, I really don't like the way Xavi comes across in interviews, from what I've seen. Xavi is an ugly man. Very Happy

But yeah, on topic, I think Xavi is better at football because he can defend and he doesn't need as much time to think about who he's going to pass to. Xavi could play as a deep lying playmaker, a box-to-box midfielder, an attacking midfielder or just a plain old central midfielder.

by The Sanchez Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:38 am

[quote="Kizu"]I'd take Pirlo anyday. Xavi needed a system to become the player he is now. Pirlo is the system.[/quote

Oh please... :coffee:

So Xavi's 100 or so passers is considered as a player this is not built around?

by jibers Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:50 am

Arquitecto wrote:
jibers wrote:Xavi. Pirlo is great, but he has a lot of issues. You see the termdeep lying playmaker, regista if I may, is used for people that sit deep and control games. The whole idea is that the person is able to have a bigger picture of the field. I find comparing these two very strange, because, Pirlo is a deep lying playmaker, while Xavi is...well...pretty much everything.

Carlo Mazzone put Pilro as a regista because he said that Pirlo did not make a good trequartista. His movement wasn't good enough. It's pretty obvious. When Pirlo is man marked, he loses all of his effectiveness. We saw that last year, especially in the AC Milan game where Emanuelson effectively man marked him out of the game. Xavi's movement is just ridiculous. He is almost impossible to man mark. He is far superior in tighter spaces, and his movement is better. His passing is crisper and he gives away the ball far less.

Pirlo is a great player in a sytem that affords you time and space. I feel that compared to Xavi, he is not as flexible. Xavi could operate in the hole and still lose the ball less times than Pirlo would. Xavi covers the most ground in most of the games he plays and distributes the ball better.

Pirlo is still a great player and the best deep lying playmaker there is. Problem is Xavi isn't registar, a media punte, a central midfielder or an attacking mf. He is a a bit of everything which makes this comparison very hard to do in the first place.

You have a great post Jibers but your post also is riddled with many misconceptions.

Mazzone who is a superb tactical legend sadly put Pirlo in a modified 4-4-1-1 in which Pirlo played the TQ there. I'll let you figure out the rest on how a TQ simply could not function in such a formation. This also is further backed up by how Mazzone felt Pirlo didn't possess the necessary "off-the-ball" movement to receive and distribute along with the fact that he played him conservatively being the youngster he was.

Ancelotti further used this role due to his specialized christmas tree formation (4-3-2-1) in which Pirlo was the only man who could play this role.

Yet sadly there is the on going myth that Pirlo has played DLP ever since. Majority of his career with La Nazionale has been as a free range TQ. Watch Pirlo vs Germany 2006. Pirlo vs Ajax 2003. Pirlo vs Man UTD 2004-05 along with Pirlo v Inter and the 5-0 in the same. All examples of him playing in his original TQ position and completely dispelling the myth that "he needs space" to operate.

I also hope you won't bring up how he needs "two DMs" to protect him at all times because this is frankly the most laughable myth out there.

Pirlo vs Emanuelsson happened simply out of the sheer fatigue and lack of form Juve were undergoing within that time period as Pirlo as Juve fans will tell you needed rest and was less effective within a space of 2-4 games in that period where they played Milan. As for Xavi not being marked out this is another myth. Micheal Bradley in the Confed cup. Esteban Cambiasso considerably reduced his effectiveness as well in the first leg of Inter. Many many times pre Luis Aragones for the NT where he just could not operate.

Same with Paul Scholes or any other legend as all three have had their moments where they have been rendered less effective by a marker.

Haven't you noticed how Nazionale fans always call for Pirlo to be played as TQ? Its simply because he is better in that role as same went for Milanisti when Carlo left. And the few games Pirlo played as TQ for Milan with Allegri he was wonderful. Sadly this decision wasn't carried out.

Cruyff once said sometimes its harder to operate in open space than tight space since the multiple options and room for creation can have a near devastating effect of consequence.

Not saying anything about Xavi, but this misconception on Pirlo not being able to operate without space and time needs to be put to rest. Not blaming you since myths like these catch on sadly.

Cheers Arq. No you misunderstood me. I meant that Xavi is better, not that pirlo isn't good. I still feel Pirlo would probably make a better Trequartista as we have seen Xavi play in the hole for Spain and as Ross said niceley he worked back words.

by Arquitecto Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:42 pm

jibers wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:
jibers wrote:Xavi. Pirlo is great, but he has a lot of issues. You see the termdeep lying playmaker, regista if I may, is used for people that sit deep and control games. The whole idea is that the person is able to have a bigger picture of the field. I find comparing these two very strange, because, Pirlo is a deep lying playmaker, while Xavi is...well...pretty much everything.

Carlo Mazzone put Pilro as a regista because he said that Pirlo did not make a good trequartista. His movement wasn't good enough. It's pretty obvious. When Pirlo is man marked, he loses all of his effectiveness. We saw that last year, especially in the AC Milan game where Emanuelson effectively man marked him out of the game. Xavi's movement is just ridiculous. He is almost impossible to man mark. He is far superior in tighter spaces, and his movement is better. His passing is crisper and he gives away the ball far less.

Pirlo is a great player in a sytem that affords you time and space. I feel that compared to Xavi, he is not as flexible. Xavi could operate in the hole and still lose the ball less times than Pirlo would. Xavi covers the most ground in most of the games he plays and distributes the ball better.

Pirlo is still a great player and the best deep lying playmaker there is. Problem is Xavi isn't registar, a media punte, a central midfielder or an attacking mf. He is a a bit of everything which makes this comparison very hard to do in the first place.

You have a great post Jibers but your post also is riddled with many misconceptions.

Mazzone who is a superb tactical legend sadly put Pirlo in a modified 4-4-1-1 in which Pirlo played the TQ there. I'll let you figure out the rest on how a TQ simply could not function in such a formation. This also is further backed up by how Mazzone felt Pirlo didn't possess the necessary "off-the-ball" movement to receive and distribute along with the fact that he played him conservatively being the youngster he was.

Ancelotti further used this role due to his specialized christmas tree formation (4-3-2-1) in which Pirlo was the only man who could play this role.

Yet sadly there is the on going myth that Pirlo has played DLP ever since. Majority of his career with La Nazionale has been as a free range TQ. Watch Pirlo vs Germany 2006. Pirlo vs Ajax 2003. Pirlo vs Man UTD 2004-05 along with Pirlo v Inter and the 5-0 in the same. All examples of him playing in his original TQ position and completely dispelling the myth that "he needs space" to operate.

I also hope you won't bring up how he needs "two DMs" to protect him at all times because this is frankly the most laughable myth out there.

Pirlo vs Emanuelsson happened simply out of the sheer fatigue and lack of form Juve were undergoing within that time period as Pirlo as Juve fans will tell you needed rest and was less effective within a space of 2-4 games in that period where they played Milan. As for Xavi not being marked out this is another myth. Micheal Bradley in the Confed cup. Esteban Cambiasso considerably reduced his effectiveness as well in the first leg of Inter. Many many times pre Luis Aragones for the NT where he just could not operate.

Same with Paul Scholes or any other legend as all three have had their moments where they have been rendered less effective by a marker.

Haven't you noticed how Nazionale fans always call for Pirlo to be played as TQ? Its simply because he is better in that role as same went for Milanisti when Carlo left. And the few games Pirlo played as TQ for Milan with Allegri he was wonderful. Sadly this decision wasn't carried out.

Cruyff once said sometimes its harder to operate in open space than tight space since the multiple options and room for creation can have a near devastating effect of consequence.

Not saying anything about Xavi, but this misconception on Pirlo not being able to operate without space and time needs to be put to rest. Not blaming you since myths like these catch on sadly.

Cheers Arq. No you misunderstood me. I meant that Xavi is better, not that pirlo isn't good. I still feel Pirlo would probably make a better Trequartista as we have seen Xavi play in the hole for Spain and as Ross said niceley he worked back words.

Noted Jibsy.

Your opinion is perfectly sound and I agree with you that Pirlo is/would make a better TQ given his ability to work in tight spaces and the wondrous final pass of his.

Someone like Xabi Alonso while full of great vision and passing technique would struggle in more tight spaces and surprisingly so does the agile and dextrous Luca Modric.

Great thing about Xavi & Pirlo is both are relatively slow yet edge out in tight spaces with their sheer timing and guile of working the ball.

by Vlad the Impaler Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:30 am

Pirlo > Xavi.I don't want to give my arguments here.I just gave you my opinion.

by Clockwork Orange Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:56 pm

Very interesting debate. I really don't feel like they are comparable. Alhough I do feel that Xavi is the better player. Pirlo is too vertival sometimes for my taste

by AllDogsGoToHeaven Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:09 pm

Xavi. Better vision, better passing, better game control...

by billy_gr Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:42 pm

xavi but only by some centimeters... both my midfield heroes

by CrazyBoy Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:02 pm

Both are great players but Xavi for me.

by Ion Creanga Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:01 pm

for me it's pirlo... He is great for a longer period than xavi, and he confirmed in different systems at milan and juve, xavi couldn't (Rijkard period)..
Both are fabulous, but if i would have to take one of them at my team, that would be pirlo.. He has more influence in the team
Pirlo's yesterday assists were pure class...

by harhar11 Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:03 pm

tuddor wrote:for me it's pirlo... He is great for a longer period than xavi, and he confirmed in different systems at milan and juve, xavi couldn't (Rijkard period)..
Both are fabulous, but if i would have to take one of them at my team, that would be pirlo.. He has more influence in the team
Pirlo's yesterday assists were pure class...

Was was more than good during the Rijkaard period.

by CrazyBoy Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:37 pm

harhar11 wrote:
tuddor wrote:for me it's pirlo... He is great for a longer period than xavi, and he confirmed in different systems at milan and juve, xavi couldn't (Rijkard period)..
Both are fabulous, but if i would have to take one of them at my team, that would be pirlo.. He has more influence in the team
Pirlo's yesterday assists were pure class...

Was was more than good during the Rijkaard period.

bro why even bother with a kid.
Xavi was great for Rijkaard's early years until that horrible injury he suffered. He was basically there reset button, most of the attack started with him and he wonderfully held the midfield. That period of him is so underrated that it is ridiculous as we hear silly comments like pre-Pep Xavi was average and many such stupid opinions.

Although I have to credit David's spell which was as vital as any for Barca.

by pewpew Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:32 pm

xavi.

Pirlo is great but he is not even on the same level as Xavi as we clearly saw in the 2012 Euro final.

One does not simply mark Xavi out of the game. But Pirlo gets easily cut off.

Xavi has better passing, better movement and is much better in tight spaces. He is the engine of Barca and the most successful spain of all time.

by RealGunner Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:01 pm

Xavi is the best CM of all time, on par with Paulo Falcao in my opinion. saying that, Pirlo is majestic himself and it's not a far away comparison.

by Potential Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:17 pm

RealGunner wrote:Xavi is the best CM of all time, on par with Paulo Falcao in my opinion. saying that, Pirlo is majestic himself and it's not a far away comparison.

How do you even assert that! Have you seen all midfielders play? The fact is Xavi is probably not the best of this generation!

Xavi had played with the best players in the world around him at all of his glory times and even at those times, he was still dominated a lot of times! Against a Pirlo and Gattuso less Italy in 2008, in 2010 opening game as Del Bosque tried to play fast paced move the ball like Chelsea where Xavi was too slow to cope, against Madrid recently and Wilshere inspired Arsenal again in 2010, against Portugal in Euros and also just a few days ago Spain midfield was dominated by France rookie young midfield!

The fact is, Xavi is probably one of the best ball keepers as a midfielder, you can't dispossess them, but he requires a particular type of players around him or he'll be deemed useless, Pirlo doesn't have that disadvantage, I'd have really would loved watching Xavi play with Gattuso!

And I can bet my life if you switched Xavi and Pirlo clubs right now, you'll see a far better Pirlo and a far worst Xavi!

by Potential Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:32 pm

BTW, that post doesn't mean I think Xavi is shit, it means I think and know he is just as dominatable as Pirlo or any other midfielder in the world unlike some's beliefs!

by billy_gr Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:25 pm

Potential wrote:
RealGunner wrote:Xavi is the best CM of all time, on par with Paulo Falcao in my opinion. saying that, Pirlo is majestic himself and it's not a far away comparison.

And I can bet my life if you switched Xavi and Pirlo clubs right now, you'll see a far better Pirlo and a far worst Xavi!

I take the bet

by CrazyBoy Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:46 am

tuddor wrote:
judging them on one game seems legit.. And what did xavi except the final? Pirlo was the main piece in almost all italy games at euro...
Where was xavi when pirlo was winning World Cup 06 and UCL in 2003?

while Pirlo was great at Euros but lets not make it like he was all about Italy. DDR was equally great tournament but he dint got noticed because he did not scored a paneka penalty or owned a shit English midfield or opened his T-shirt.
Xavi was still there in Barcelona carrying the team during a horrible situation during the 2002/03 when Pirlo won UCL in the worst CL final of all time.
Xavi was one of the only few bright spots in that dark era of Barcelona. He even scored a screamer vs Juve in UCL QF, but Barcelona fell short in extratime
due to a Zalayeta goal.
And 2006 World Cup, he had a below par tournament but the fact he was injured for a great part of the year played a part. He was not fit enough.

And CrazyBoy, you're name is too idiotic to be taken serious

yes my username is childish(not idiotic:D) but not my opinion about Xavi. You seems to have built a false opinion about Xavi of early days. He was no slouch, from the very first season he showed he was special but than Barcelona went downhill with problems off the field and no player can lift a team if the problems are beyond the field.
And you say Xavi dint fit Rijkaard's system? Do you know what is Rijkaard system? It is basically the same idea that Pep's or Tito's Barca followed ofcourse the approach varies. Control the ball, and it was Xavi who allowed Rijkaard to play the idea, without the idea suffered. And anyone who saw Rijkaard's Barca, knows how they were with Xavi and without him. After his injury in 06, Barca's general play went downhill, yes they won titles but having a certain Eto and Ronaldinho helps. He was still the man who kept the ball, glued the midfield and connected the defense and offense and without him Barcelona suffered to control the games, just see the final off 2006 without a fit Xavi, they didnot dominated the game the way they do but won since Gunners are eternal chokers and were one man less. He was quite underrated player by the media but vital as any. He was certainly not a failure or average as you seem to think and he was definitely not a misfit in Rijkaard's Barca rather it was him whose inclusion made it easy for Rijkaard to implement his idea on field.

by Clockwork Orange Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:56 am

For me they are as good as each other. People seem to be forgetting that players abilitys are influnced massively by the sytesm they are set up in. Xavi has the luxury of playing with players that offer far more passing options. In a recenyt interveiw, he even stated that without his team mates he would be very ineffective. Pirlo is a far better pivote from what I have seen, I watched Xavi's early game as the pivote of Barcelona to the complete controller of Barcelona and Spain's midfield. I think they are very close, and it is annoying me that people here are making it out that Xavi is a head above him.

Pilro is used in the same light as Luis Suarez from Heleneo Herrera's inter, playing balls in behind the defense. Xavi is the better mf, but not by much at all. As we saw in the Euros, Xavi wasn't anyhwere near as influencial as he has been but Spain were fine, Italy where totally dependent on Pirlo to be composed.

Like Ronaldo and Messi, I believe we are blessed to be in the same era as these two.

by CrazyBoy Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:12 am

Potential wrote:

How do you even assert that! Have you seen all midfielders play? The fact is Xavi is probably not the best of this generation!

Xavi had played with the best players in the world around him at all of his glory times and even at those times, he was still dominated a lot of times! Against a Pirlo and Gattuso less Italy in 2008, in 2010 opening game as Del Bosque tried to play fast paced move the ball like Chelsea where Xavi was too slow to cope, against Madrid recently and Wilshere inspired Arsenal again in 2010, against Portugal in Euros and also just a few days ago Spain midfield was dominated by France rookie young midfield!

The fact is, Xavi is probably one of the best ball keepers as a midfielder, you can't dispossess them, but he requires a particular type of players around him or he'll be deemed useless, Pirlo doesn't have that disadvantage, I'd have really would loved watching Xavi play with Gattuso!

And I can bet my life if you switched Xavi and Pirlo clubs right now, you'll see a far better Pirlo and a far worst Xavi!

you make it sound like Pirlo played with a team consiting of your and my grandmoms during his elite times in early to mid 2000s. And even today in Juve he has a strong team with solid midfield and fullbacks who are great going forward to back him up for. Like every great midfielders Pirlo too need a functional side or else he will suffer. And unlike Xavi he gets easily bullied by a marker.
And tell me of a single player who didnot fell short in his career for once, and Xavi was not exactly bad vs Arsenal of Whilshere, kudos to Whilshere but Barcelona controlled the game for long and dint seem much troubled. Switzerland game, well he was played too high upfront to operate smoothly, it is like playing Maldini in winger position and saying look how shit he is. Madrid game? Yes they were great for 30mins but after that? It was all Xavi's ball(pun not intended).

And Pirlo at Barcelona would be a success but not in the Xavi role. He isnt mobile enough. And Xavi with this Juve? Having partners like Vidal and Marchisio and functional wingbacks like Lichtsteiner, Asmoah, Isla, he wont be bad. He would not be the Xavi of Barca as Juve is no Barca but he would still be great.

by Guest Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:11 am

Would have loved to watch these two together. I think overall Xavi is a greater player, he only gets credit for Euro08 onwards but he's been amazing from way back. I remember the Juve-Barca CL ties in 2003, Xavi was immense the way he run the midfield and I think he's the one who scored for them or the match against Liverpool at Anfield (with Overmars goal after a zillion passes).
In terms of technique I'd give it to Pirlo, he handles the ball more naturally/smoothly but the difference isn't much. Pirlo shoots better, executes long-range passes better (with either foot), and is slightly a better dribbler than Xavi IMO. Xavi's constant movement though allows him to dictate games in a way Pirlo perhaps can't, and I dont know how much of this is to do with the team because Xavi was doing this since before Rijkaard and Pep.
Anyone who says one is MUCH better than the other is seriously under-appreciating one of the modern greats.

by Muzza Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:41 am

Potential wrote:BTW, that post doesn't mean I think Xavi is shit, it means I think and know he is just as dominatable as Pirlo or any other midfielder in the world unlike some's beliefs!

so you make a thread about why people compare these two because theyre different types of players and now here you go comparing them...

anyway that pirlo forever will be in xavis shadow

by Motogp69 Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:24 pm

Kizu wrote:I'd take Pirlo anyday. Xavi needed a system to become the player he is now. Pirlo is the system.

+1 for me. I don't understand how this is even an argument. Xavi works in certain systems, Pirlo would work in any system.

by Gemini Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:04 pm

I think Pirlo tries and is capable of more adventurous balls and I like that. Xavi works harder and plays it more simple and I like that also lol.

Hard to pick 1 but I do think if you replaced Italy's Pirlo with Spain's Xavi Spain would still have the talent to win the wc while Italy would get worse.

Having said that just because Italy needs Pirlo more then spain need Xavi I still think they are quite equal but Xavi is definitely surrounded by better talent for club and country.

by alexjanosik Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:36 am

Gemini wrote:I think Pirlo tries and is capable of more adventurous balls and I like that. Xavi works harder and plays it more simple and I like that also lol.

Hard to pick 1 but I do think if you replaced Italy's Pirlo with Spain's Xavi Spain would still have the talent to win the wc while Italy would get worse.

Having said that just because Italy needs Pirlo more then spain need Xavi I still think they are quite equal but Xavi is definitely surrounded by better talent for club and country.

Dont agree at all with both statements.I dont think Spain would have won any of the 3 tournaments that they did without Xavi.
They won their latter 2 tournaments by playing a slightly defensive possession style of game and Xavi is crucial for it.Take him out and the possession style is not the same,especially against the best sides.
Spain wouldnt have beaten Germany at WC 2010 without Xavi nor would they have thrashed Italy in EC 2012 final without Xavi.Both were vintage Xavi performances.It is easy to say that all he does is pass sideways.There is a lot more to it than that.He is their MVP and I am willing to bet that the day Xavi retires is the day Spain stop winning.
Also dont see how Italy would get worse with Xavi instead of Pirlo.Could you elaborate on the reasons?
Maybe a slight shift in system to accommodate Xavi as a more box to box playmaker instead of the DLP role that Pirlo plays.Italy would be just as good.
On the adventurous balls thing,the lack of final balls from Xavi these days is a direct result of Messi's enhanced role and importance in the team.If anything it makes Xavi a greater player,not lesser.
For Spain,its because they play with no runners.So how is he supposed to play final balls?

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