Coppa Italia and teaching lessons

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Post by nikac Wed May 23, 2012 11:35 am

First to tell, I am one of the greatest Juve fans and following a team for about many years, and really passionate people about Old Lady. And I'm very satisfied with our season how it was, it was great. But last game, against Napoli showed us beside great things and joys, some obvious problems, I want to share my opinion with Yours in this topic and would love to hear you, but from some other point of view,not from fan but objective. Below, I 'll be very objective and realistic about our weaknesses :

1. Bonucci or Bon Bon is not a 5 star player like Chiellini,he could be a solid bench player, simple he is not class,even Barzagli is nearer Chiellini in that. We must buy world class or hot prospect centre back.
2. Caceres too, he shouldn't play if he doesn't have to, he is so predictable with ball,unsafe in defence and obviously not a rock in our defence unfortunately
3. In big games, we lack a midfield domination against great teams, and a solution is to buy another great centre midfielder, Marchisio showed us that beside his goals, he is not new Marco Tardelli really, Pirlo and Vidal are that engines of our success this season.
4. Conte is great tactician, phenomenon, but we don't have a playing philosophy,our playing identity,we play match by match with many oscillations as you see.
5. Buying too many fringe players, my tears go since the arrival of Marotta, and have to fight with this. We should move on in this mercato and remove some players who played this season : Caceres not to use buy option, Paolo De Ceglie(sell a 50% a ownership), Simone Padoin(sell as soon as we can), Borriello(not to use buy option), and get some 5 star players because they only can be part of this new Juve, because we are not team like Napoli and Sampdoria, we are JUVE.
6. And one appeal for many of us, please don't be unrealistic and overrate our players like Bonucci,Caceres,De Ceglie,Marchisio,Quagliarella,they are simply not that class,accept that. We lack world class players that Napoli,Inter,Milan and others have, not to mention european greatest,they are not crazy and it's not a coincidence that they have this type of players,on this level now we are on Tottenham level approximately maybe little better.
7. Conclusion : With squad we have this season, we were so brilliant and our results are above the sky really, but in Europe again our team need big signings and radical change to prevent some of potential problems in the near future.


Last edited by nikac on Wed May 23, 2012 11:41 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by dronte Wed May 23, 2012 11:38 am

Cáceres has played in 4 roles this year at Juve.. Seriously, no way we can judge him for not playing perfectly all of them.

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Post by davidsNC Wed May 23, 2012 2:42 pm

I can't agree w/ points 1 and 2... bonucci might not be a 5 star player (whatever that is) but he is an emerging defender who has been and will be excellent

agree to a very small extent to point 3 in that another good midfielder is needed...

don't agree w/ point 4, in that our philosophy is to out battle and most of the time out possess the other team. we employ different tactics for different games, but this is italy, and that's how it goes here...

with regard to point 5, we have to buy caceres due to a clause in the contract, and i wouldn't want to send him back anyway, but i would be fine with saying goodbye to borriello and padion...

in response to point 6, fans should be allowed to get excited about their own players... with that said, overrating players is as much as an issue as people who nitpick every little play in order to devalue someone... best thing to do is probably meet somewhere in the middle. btw all of the players listed in point 6 helped us to an undefeated season in seria a and a scudetto

w/ regard to point 7, the best teams aren't necessarily made up of the best players, but the right players for the circumstances

lastly, i think you underestimate how difficult it was to mentally re-group for a the copa final after going undefeated in the seria a... at the end of the season there must have been so much pressure to deliver the scudetto and they did it... no matter how they tried, i bet the atmosphere at the first training session after the celebrations was different that others.

btw, it is also hard to go 2-0-1 against this napoli squad... a rested squad that defeated the european champions... in sum, no shame in losing one game all season
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Post by nikac Wed May 23, 2012 11:12 pm

I am glad to hear your opinions guys,thanks, and i am hoping for another our friends of Juve to have their say about this topic and story and give their opinion and some critic or agreement. And about transfers i would like to say the most realistic scenario for our mercato from my point of view and most economic(in our financial sight) too :
1. DEFENCE - sign Kolarov(in Serie A definitely best left back without doubt) ; Verthongen(great potential)
2. MIDFIELD - sign Hernanes(fantastic playmaker,we lack this type of player for many years) ; keep/recall Felipe Melo(fantastic season abroad,crazy guy but remember that Conte can overfight with his character and get best from him)
3. ATTACK - buy back Giovinco(phenomenon,maybe not the new Del Piero,but team player who will give a great contribution with many assists and goals surely) ; Stevan Jovetic(immense talent,world class potential)

In my opinion, this is less complicated and more realistic scenario of our transfer market. Simply, we don't need Higuain,Persie,Neymar etc.. As our friend DavidsNC said, we have a very good squad and my wish is to keep this squad and not to get disbalance of star players,and just with signings this players for example.

Our team will look like this : Buffon
Lichsteiner , Verthongen, Chiellini, Kolarov
Vidal, Pirlo, Hernanes
Jovetic, Vucinic, Giovinco


Last edited by nikac on Wed May 23, 2012 11:34 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Luca Wed May 23, 2012 11:17 pm

I disagree with points 2 and 3
Caceres has been thrown into a number of different positions and done well in each and every one of them in my mind. He isn't a world beater but he plays well. He is still young and arrived only in January, it's harsh to say he isn't quality.

Juventus' midfield is the only reason that Juventus did win big games. Case closed.

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Post by nikac Wed May 23, 2012 11:29 pm

Luca, yes it's a fact, and in that I see a problem. He is versatile, too. But why? Because our coach doesn't know where to select him because he plays like a fringe player in all of that mentioned positions unfortunately. And, when we talk about our midfield, i think that some kind of strengthening is necessary to keep European dreams alive, and for a team like ours.

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Post by Luca Thu May 24, 2012 12:33 am

He is a fringe player, an incredibly important one

And yes, strengthening needs to be done to sustain CL football and serie a, but the midfield is Juventus through and through.

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Post by davidsNC Thu May 24, 2012 4:46 am

nikac, i have dreamed about how great it would be to bring melo back IF HE HAD A DIFFERENT PERSONALITY. He was my favorite player last year, and I don't judge him for the way he is, but am just concerned about how he would blend w/ conte and the new environment.

i also like giovinco, and agree w/ everything you said about him... in the end i have a feeling it will be conte's call.

so a question for you. in your scenario, who are you getting rid of/ sending out on loan?
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Post by nikac Thu May 24, 2012 8:55 am

Players to be sold or sent on loan/co-ownership : Bonucci(try get money from Zenit), Padoin(immediate sell,disastrous player,I can't believe we bought this garbage) ,Marrone(loan,needs more playing time), Pepe(not good enough,sell), Krasic(get some fresh money,good player but not appropriate for this tactics we play with team hard word), Borriello(send back) , Quagliarella(sell for anything,overrated player and stats tell enough about him and always told in the past,i don't know why we buy him anyway, I'm sorry but he is not new Di Natale or clinical striker)

OUR SUBS next season : Storari, Barzagli, Caceres, De Ceglie, Felipe Melo, Marchisio, Estigarribia, Giaccherini, Matri, Elia(will be great in attack,just give him whole game to play), pretty solid bench with many useful players and not too many old attackers. And the main advantage of this mercato and our tactics because we can combine our wings like Esti, Giacche for attack who can play very well and we just have to get rid of too much fringe attackers, and in that way keeping Matri in good shape(he gets in crisis when he is inconsistent starter).

To add, for our buys, if we change mind and not keep Felipe Melo, we should buy Assamoah for a small fee+large tehnical counterpart, and for cheaper left back solutions we can buy Aly Cissokho instead of Kolarov,but nothing will be changed,same players on same level,great shoppings too.

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Post by The_ItalianFool Thu May 24, 2012 9:35 am

nikac wrote:First to tell, I am one of the greatest Juve fans and following a team for about many years, and really passionate people about Old Lady. And I'm very satisfied with our season how it was, it was great. But last game, against Napoli showed us beside great things and joys, some obvious problems, I want to share my opinion with Yours in this topic and would love to hear you, but from some other point of view,not from fan but objective. Below, I 'll be very objective and realistic about our weaknesses :

1. Bonucci or Bon Bon is not a 5 star player like Chiellini,he could be a solid bench player, simple he is not class,even Barzagli is nearer Chiellini in that. We must buy world class or hot prospect centre back.
2. Caceres too, he shouldn't play if he doesn't have to, he is so predictable with ball,unsafe in defence and obviously not a rock in our defence unfortunately
3. In big games, we lack a midfield domination against great teams, and a solution is to buy another great centre midfielder, Marchisio showed us that beside his goals, he is not new Marco Tardelli really, Pirlo and Vidal are that engines of our success this season.
4. Conte is great tactician, phenomenon, but we don't have a playing philosophy,our playing identity,we play match by match with many oscillations as you see.
5. Buying too many fringe players, my tears go since the arrival of Marotta, and have to fight with this. We should move on in this mercato and remove some players who played this season : Caceres not to use buy option, Paolo De Ceglie(sell a 50% a ownership), Simone Padoin(sell as soon as we can), Borriello(not to use buy option), and get some 5 star players because they only can be part of this new Juve, because we are not team like Napoli and Sampdoria, we are JUVE.
6. And one appeal for many of us, please don't be unrealistic and overrate our players like Bonucci,Caceres,De Ceglie,Marchisio,Quagliarella,they are simply not that class,accept that. We lack world class players that Napoli,Inter,Milan and others have, not to mention european greatest,they are not crazy and it's not a coincidence that they have this type of players,on this level now we are on Tottenham level approximately maybe little better.
7. Conclusion : With squad we have this season, we were so brilliant and our results are above the sky really, but in Europe again our team need big signings and radical change to prevent some of potential problems in the near future.

1) Bonucci has been good enough to start in the 3-5-2 in the second half of the season. He deserves a shot to keep his spot, and if we need defensive reinforcements because he isnt performing we can get that in the January market.

2) Caceres is a great player for our squad. The exact mentality that Conte requires, can fill many positions, and is always solid defensively at the least.

3) I would like another good CM, but Melo is not for this team. He represents something this team doesnt need. Vidal is better than him, and I'd rather Marrone be Vidal's backup anyways.

4) We have a playing philosophy (fight for possession, retain possession at all costs, build up from the back, overload their half), but I would say that our attack does not have a good philosophy as we struggle to break down defenses often.

5) As Marotta has said many times, it's been about quantity, so that's why we have so many 'fringe' players. We built a good squad base, now we add the Quality. I disagree with about everything you said here, maybe save Borriello. I'm still in the middle with him, but would not be opposed to signing him for much cheaper as our 3rd or 4th string striker.

6) Don't really agree with this. I think all the players listed are completely useful players to this team, especially Marchisio

7) We DO NOT need radical changes. We have built something great and we simply need to perfect it. We need 3-4 key signings, with 1-2 of them being big names.
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Post by The_ItalianFool Thu May 24, 2012 9:40 am

And how is Padoin so bad? I really must be blind... I see a decent versatile player...

Disastrous and garbage? He had 3 appearances, 1 goal, and 87% pass completion. What else do you expect from him?
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Post by nikac Thu May 24, 2012 4:40 pm

Yes obviously you are. His performances ratings is max 5.5 for display, i don't want to talk without sense about a player from Atalanta, what other to say. And main problem of mercato politics ours is because of Marotta, he only manage Sampdoria and that's a problem, he doesn't get in his mind that our Juve is not Sampdoria or clubs with that renown. Juve from past 20 years if you sum all of fringe players from that players, you will see that we didn't have too many like last 2-3 years and sometimes when I watch my team, I speak in myself, this is not Juve, it cannot be with that squad. I am telling you guys again, don't forget last disastrous season under the leadership with our dirigente sportivo, don't forget many many wrong buys.

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Post by DeviAngel Thu May 24, 2012 4:48 pm

nikac wrote:Yes obviously you are. His performances ratings is max 5.5 for display, i don't want to talk without sense about a player from Atalanta, what other to say. And main problem of mercato politics ours is because of Marotta, he only manage Sampdoria and that's a problem, he doesn't get in his mind that our Juve is not Sampdoria or clubs with that renown. Juve from past 20 years if you sum all of fringe players from that players, you will see that we didn't have too many like last 2-3 years and sometimes when I watch my team, I speak in myself, this is not Juve, it cannot be with that squad. I am telling you guys again, don't forget last disastrous season under the leadership with our dirigente sportivo, don't forget many many wrong buys.

That's goal.com statiscits 5.5 rate lol .....

Ffs Marotta borught u title with Conte and u still guys spit on him ...what I won't see
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Post by The_ItalianFool Thu May 24, 2012 5:12 pm

nikac wrote:Yes obviously you are. His performances ratings is max 5.5 for display, i don't want to talk without sense about a player from Atalanta, what other to say. And main problem of mercato politics ours is because of Marotta, he only manage Sampdoria and that's a problem, he doesn't get in his mind that our Juve is not Sampdoria or clubs with that renown. Juve from past 20 years if you sum all of fringe players from that players, you will see that we didn't have too many like last 2-3 years and sometimes when I watch my team, I speak in myself, this is not Juve, it cannot be with that squad. I am telling you guys again, don't forget last disastrous season under the leadership with our dirigente sportivo, don't forget many many wrong buys.

You do know that Juve got demoted a few years ago, right?

You do know that we havent been in the champions league for a couple seasons, right?

You do know that the top class players want European football, so we havent been able to get the big names you speak of, right?

Marotta got Delneri the types of players he wanted, and it did not work. Our management (Angelli only came back last season, you know this, right?) got rid of Delneri and replaced him with Conte.

Marotta got the types of players Conte requested, and we won Serie A.

We rebuilt the squad's base with quantity, and now the goal (since we are back in Champion's league) is to add the quality....
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Post by nikac Thu May 24, 2012 6:12 pm

Lol Dejan, I really didn't see goal.com ratings, I just give my rating as a basic judge,lol! Smile Pozdrav iz Srbije za Makedoniju!

All the facts I know, but I better know the past Juve from this present Juve. And as we all know,for success formula we need the type of players from past Juve, and as you see Conte is from past times,and that's why we succeed this season,because of him non Marrota my man. We lack creativity and flair in our squad except extraordinary Pirlo and talented Vucinic. In past times, we mostly have two or three players who are world phenomenons - Baggio, than Zidane, than Nedved and Del Piero and for about few years we don't have this ranking of player who can pull the team to success alone. All of best clubs around have exactly that player,one or more and even smaller clubs with their best player is usually better than us best. Think about it a little before you spit on me without the real arguments.

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Post by DeviAngel Thu May 24, 2012 6:42 pm

nikac wrote:Lol Dejan, I really didn't see goal.com ratings, I just give my rating as a basic judge,lol! Smile Pozdrav iz Srbije za Makedoniju!

All the facts I know, but I better know the past Juve from this present Juve. And as we all know,for success formula we need the type of players from past Juve, and as you see Conte is from past times,and that's why we succeed this season,because of him non Marrota my man. We lack creativity and flair in our squad except extraordinary Pirlo and talented Vucinic. In past times, we mostly have two or three players who are world phenomenons - Baggio, than Zidane, than Nedved and Del Piero and for about few years we don't have this ranking of player who can pull the team to success alone. All of best clubs around have exactly that player,one or more and even smaller clubs with their best player is usually better than us best. Think about it a little before you spit on me without the real arguments.

Marotta has done wonderful job sorry bro :)0

hvala na pozdravu Very Happy
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Post by juve_gigi Thu May 24, 2012 8:02 pm

nikac wrote:Lol Dejan, I really didn't see goal.com ratings, I just give my rating as a basic judge,lol! Smile Pozdrav iz Srbije za Makedoniju!

All the facts I know, but I better know the past Juve from this present Juve. And as we all know,for success formula we need the type of players from past Juve, and as you see Conte is from past times,and that's why we succeed this season,because of him non Marrota my man. We lack creativity and flair in our squad except extraordinary Pirlo and talented Vucinic. In past times, we mostly have two or three players who are world phenomenons - Baggio, than Zidane, than Nedved and Del Piero and for about few years we don't have this ranking of player who can pull the team to success alone. All of best clubs around have exactly that player,one or more and even smaller clubs with their best player is usually better than us best. Think about it a little before you spit on me without the real arguments.

Actually you are correct in that at this time Marotta has not delivered us a future Baggio, Zidane, Nedved or Del Piero. Obviously because of Calciopoli Juve have struggled to get world class players to come here because of no European football. So I will give Marotta a pass on the last couple of years.

But this summer there is NO excuse. We won the scudetto, we are back in Champions League, the Juve name is now restored, and we now have milllions of dollars in new funds because of our success and our new stadium. So Marotta has NO excuses this summer.

He needs to deliver at least two top players this summer and also some quality bench players to re-inforce us for European competition. This is what Marotta has to do and I am going to wait patiently for him to do this. I'll let him do his job and see what happens come August. If Marotta doesn't deliver us any quality signings, world class signings, this summer than he has NO excuses and should take ALL the blame if we suck next year.
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Post by The_ItalianFool Thu May 24, 2012 10:26 pm

juve_gigi wrote:
nikac wrote:Lol Dejan, I really didn't see goal.com ratings, I just give my rating as a basic judge,lol! Smile Pozdrav iz Srbije za Makedoniju!

All the facts I know, but I better know the past Juve from this present Juve. And as we all know,for success formula we need the type of players from past Juve, and as you see Conte is from past times,and that's why we succeed this season,because of him non Marrota my man. We lack creativity and flair in our squad except extraordinary Pirlo and talented Vucinic. In past times, we mostly have two or three players who are world phenomenons - Baggio, than Zidane, than Nedved and Del Piero and for about few years we don't have this ranking of player who can pull the team to success alone. All of best clubs around have exactly that player,one or more and even smaller clubs with their best player is usually better than us best. Think about it a little before you spit on me without the real arguments.

Actually you are correct in that at this time Marotta has not delivered us a future Baggio, Zidane, Nedved or Del Piero. Obviously because of Calciopoli Juve have struggled to get world class players to come here because of no European football. So I will give Marotta a pass on the last couple of years.

But this summer there is NO excuse. We won the scudetto, we are back in Champions League, the Juve name is now restored, and we now have milllions of dollars in new funds because of our success and our new stadium. So Marotta has NO excuses this summer.

He needs to deliver at least two top players this summer and also some quality bench players to re-inforce us for European competition. This is what Marotta has to do and I am going to wait patiently for him to do this. I'll let him do his job and see what happens come August. If Marotta doesn't deliver us any quality signings, world class signings, this summer than he has NO excuses and should take ALL the blame if we suck next year.

Bingo! +1
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Post by The_ItalianFool Thu May 24, 2012 10:49 pm

nikac wrote:Think about it a little before you spit on me without the real arguments.

My logic is undeniable.

You can't expect Marotta to get the next best player in the world to come to a 7th place team without Europe... that's simply unreasonable and unrealistic. Marotta's work thus far has been fantastic, with the exception of a couple signings that didnt work out. We won Serie A ffs...
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Post by Luca Thu May 24, 2012 10:57 pm

The_ItalianFool wrote:
nikac wrote:Think about it a little before you spit on me without the real arguments.

My logic is undeniable.

You can't expect Marotta to get the next best player in the world to come to a 7th place team without Europe... that's simply unreasonable and unrealistic. Marotta's work thus far has been fantastic, with the exception of a couple signings that didnt work out. We won Serie A ffs...

Unfortunately his job is evaluated after each season, he pretty much has to restart now and see how the squad can be improved for next season.

It's silly that he still has his critics, some people are just born to be unhappy

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Post by DeviAngel Thu May 24, 2012 11:01 pm

The thing that all forget is how much money Agnelli and Elkann will give to Marotta
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Post by Luca Thu May 24, 2012 11:02 pm

DeviAngel wrote:The thing that all forget is how much money Agnelli and Elkann will give to Marotta

And how much other clubs (City, Chelsea, PSG) will still have to spend. Obviously they will outbid Juventus for a player

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Post by nikac Thu May 24, 2012 11:21 pm

Great post juve_gigi, i totally agree with your opinion,you are right. Maybe because i'm a sceptic about our buys I have to say that, but mostly that is a point. And for others, ofcourse that his job is evaluated after each year, for him that should be a bussiness year like some job in economics, he must give greatest results and allways should be under pressure and critics,we need for constant progress,there is no time to build and build for years,this is Juve not some youth team. Excuse me, but I always have a picture of Juventus fighting tightly with Real,Barcelona,Bayern and Man Utd.

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Post by davidsNC Fri May 25, 2012 2:35 am

new left backs were brought up in this thread, and maybe it's just a pipe dream ( i mean i know it's a dream) but, anyone think that diego contento would be a nice pick up for LB?
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Post by DeviAngel Fri May 25, 2012 2:56 am

davidsNC wrote:new left backs were brought up in this thread, and maybe it's just a pipe dream ( i mean i know it's a dream) but, anyone think that diego contento would be a nice pick up for LB?

Balzaretti > Very Happy
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Coppa Italia and teaching lessons Empty Re: Coppa Italia and teaching lessons

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