Grande_Milano wrote:Hungary le samurai, not Romania.

Ya sorry, deleted the wrong team

would say him and Iker are contenders

Le Samourai wrote:

BhritanniaBhlue wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:Not for Inter...for Spain...he won us the Euros with a weaker team......

Suarez and Amanciano

You're still missing the point though

"He won us the Euros with a 'weaker' team"

Weaker compared to the team Xavi won it with, sure...But Suarez also PLAYED teams that were 'weaker' than the teams Xavi played, so the distinction is moot

Teams that Suarez' Spain had to play to win the Euros:

Romania, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Hungary, USSR


..........................

Countries have peaks and troughs...I don't see why there's any reason Romania and USSR are worse than Russia and 08 Germany.

I'm not an expert though,

Are you saying football is better now therefore he's better just for the record?.....cuz I won't argue on that point.

No I'm saying he's better because he won more and he plays in a more difficult and competitive era


I only used that as an example since you brought up the "weaker" point...Suarez played on weaker teams, but he also played weaker opponents, so that shouldn't be used as an excuse as to why he won less than Xavi has

2/2 and 500/500 both equal one, if you follow what I mean with that

Yes he is comfortably the best spanish player of all time. Best CM in modern football history imo.

Comfortably? No. He is definitely in the running though.

Hierro, Raul, and Puyol are three players I've watched consistently that are comfortable better than Xavi, let alone players that many of us (including myself) were not able to watch consistently such as Buitre, Suarez, Amancio, Gento, etc.

Puyol and Heirro better than Xavi..funny.

Argue Raul if you like, you would be wrong to in my opinion, but the other two.....just no.

Sorry...David Villa is...

jibers wrote:

Raul is not on Xavi's level, Villa has a case but not Raul. Villa has been instrumental to the rebitrh of Spain as a super power on the NT front, scoring crucila goal on the way to both Euros and WC final. Raul, did not. Xavi is the fulcrum for Spain, and the fulcrum for Barcelona. If he is instrumental in the next Euros and they win it, then there will be no arguement. All my Spanish mates agree.

Let's be serious here, Raul was for some time the FACE of Spain. To say he isn't in the running to be Spain's best ever is absolute rubbish

Raul was unfortunate to play for a Spain that was not even a 1/4 as good as present day Spain. Had tiki-taka been introduced to Raul's Spain, and had Spain had a half competent midfield with half as much talent as today's Spain, Raul would be undoubtedly the best player Spain has seen.

Villa is a great player who deserves all the accolades, but I'm certain he would not even be mentioned in this discussion if he was born 5 years earlier and played his prime alongside Raul's Spain.

Spain didnt fail in Raul year because of lack of talent, that wasnt the reason at all.

They were bottlers who had no defensive gameplan.

Talent wasnt the problem, they lost to teams they had way more talent than.

I can't see how anyone else comes close. Yes, Iker, Villa, and Iniesta are all as successful as Xavi, but Xavi's ability to run the midfield is unparalleled. I don't see the argument for Villa at all. Iker and Iniesta are perhaps more decisive, but Spain win because of their style, and Xavi is the center of that style.

There are some comments in this thread that claim that Xavi could easily be replaced at Spain by Silva or Cesc. Cesc has proven at Barcelona that he cannot do what Xavi does, not yet, his passing is too inaccurate. While Pep is trying to groom him into Xavi's heir I don't think any Barcelona supporter currently believes that Cesc will ever be able to dominate the center midfield like Xavi. I have similar doubts about Silva. The fact that he'll never win the Ballon D'Or is a travesty, not that I think he cares.

Let's be very clear here.

We got knocked out of the World Cup because a heroin addicted ref was having a laugh.

The Iker one is an interesting argument IMO.

It's a importance of job vs difficulty of job argument really.I don't expect anyone to call Iker the best Spanish player of all time but he probably has been the most decisive.

The Franchise wrote:Puyol and Heirro better than Xavi..funny.

Argue Raul if you like, you would be wrong to in my opinion, but the other two.....just no.

Can't stress the phrase "in my opinion" enough. You have to look at Spain pre Del Bosque and early Aragones.

Puyol was a much better player than Xavi, much more influential even as a defender. This is why I don't rate Xavi as high. Before 08, he was nothing special for Spain. A regular starter for Spain that would make little to no contribution imo

I dont see why you dont see an argument in Hierro, he was easily one of the greats of our time imo. Probably the most influential player for whatever team he played for during his time.

The Franchise wrote:Spain didnt fail in Raul year because of lack of talent, that wasnt the reason at all.

They were bottlers who had no defensive gameplan.

Talent wasnt the problem, they lost to teams they had way more talent than.

Its foolish to say Spain lacked talent, because if theres one thing Spain have always had, its talent.

I'm arguing that Villa's Spain (if you can even call it that), has infinitely more talent than a Spain seen a decade ago which can be easily explained with their newfound tiki taka philosophy

This philosophy revolutionized Spainish football, and imo Raul was unlucky that he couldn't play with Spain under this new system they have so successfully implemented

Only in your mind Xavi was just a run of the mill player before 08..but I cant argue that, this myth will go on.

Puyol and Heirro cannot touch Xavi, because for the past 4 years he has dominated his position so much more than either of them (and Raul) ever did its untrue.

But what I do want to talk about is Raul and the excuses cooked up for Spains failures in his time. At the time, he was blamed big time for Spain's failure...now has time goes on, because Spain have been a sucess, people seem to have forgetten that.

Out of the group stages vs Nigeria, Paraguay and Bulgaria in 98. I dont get how people can say Spain lacked talent when these are the teams they go out to....this was them being crap, not lacking talent..

In 1998, they had Raul, Heirro, Nadal, Ivan Campo, Luis Enrique, Morientes....what excuse is there to going out to the teams they did?

In 00 they went out to winners, France, which there is no shame in. But dig deeper and you will find Raul missing a penalty in that game, costing them. Look at his teammates, a prime Mendieta, Alfonso a goalscoring machine in his time, Hierro, Guardiola, a excellent young Gerard, Munintes, Morientes, Valeron...no lack of talent there at all.

02, out on pens to Korea after struggling to beat Ireland the game before (winning on pens, 0-0 in normal time)....great squad again, Baraja, aging but still great Heirro, Baraja, Tristian, Puyol, Mendieta..on and on..

04, Rauls end....out in the group stages to Portugal, Greece and Russia...Raul started all 3 games and gave them squat, not one goal. Lack of talent? Puyol, Valencia trio Vince, Baraja and Albelda, Helguera, Morientes, Valeron, Torres, Luque says no...


Raul had chances to do something in his time, even if not win it, but at least bring the team to much better results than they did...some of those exsists are laughable. All the blame shouldnt be on him, thats unfair, but the star always get the most blame and so should he in these caes. Its not like he lacked talent around him at any stage either.

In the end its a knock on him.

I think you go too far when you say infinitely more talent, thats not true. They have perhaps a bit more talent, but again talent wasnt the problem, it wasnt the reason for their failures.

Yes, Raul didnt get to play with the current teams organsation and philosophy in place..thats true.

I think Xavi's the best ever Spaniard IMO. The Tiki Taka philosophy was a system perfect for him and I think would also be perfect for Raul. And even with that style Spain struggled until Germany and Netherlands where they just dominated when they needed to. Spain has had talent indeed but never had a signature style until 07-08. Raul comes second in the end. Xavi's the best.

umm, if this is about the greatest spanish player of all time, shouldnt you guys evaluate both nt and club careers ?

Xavi's been the heartbeat and maestro in the most successful Spanish national team of all time and probably the best Barcelona team of all time (and one of the best club football teams of all time), both of which have the strength of amazing midfields- and a possession game that probably no others in history can match. Xavi is the mastermind behind both of those midfields that were and still are essential to both teams.

Hell yeah he's the best Spaniard

Lemme say this...

Comfortably? - No.

Casillas, Iniesta, Suarez, Amancio all have as much claim as Xavi imo

Sometimes, one or two pivotal moments just overcome everything else. Don't underestimate the significance of Iker's saves in the penalty shootout against Italy in EURO 2008 and THAT save against Robben in WC2010. Had it not been for San Iker's presence in the most crucial games, Spain would have no star on the jersey or the 2008 EUROs to its name. Xavi's 1023829 completed passes and 2389232kms covered would have been done in vain.

Xavi probably deserves the Most Consistent Award in the Spanish NT jersey though. He's never let the team down, but he doesn't often get the MOTM awards either. Hes the bread and butter of this legendary Spanish team, but Casillas is the white truffle on top. Plus, the fact that Iker was el Capitan and the most capped player in the most successful Spanish team ever should not be disregarded when analyzing this topic.

IMO, they are of equal importance to the Spanish NT.

Raul was just unlucky to miss out on being part of this group. Kudos to Villa for making the most of his precious opportunity though.

Iniesta isn't nowhere close.
For me it's Xavi, Iker Raul and Villa with Xavi edging it

Cruyff says Xavi is the best player in the world

People consider Messi as the GOAT, but if Xavi>Messi

Then Xavi is the best player in history AKA GOAT?

Se7en wrote:Cruyff says Xavi is the best player in the world

People consider Messi as the GOAT, but if Xavi>Messi

Then Xavi is the best player in history AKA GOAT?

Saying that either of them is the best player of all time (in the world) is just stupid.

Ok, some of the things are getting out of hand here.

1. Raul whether anyone likes it or not was a large flop for Espana and our whole country considers it that way. DO NOT let his 44 goals out of 102 fool you. 92% of them were in very unimportant matches like friendlies, qualifiers and a few GS goals yet it never extended beyond that. He could NEVER replicate his club form onto for the NT. Service? In the damn Euro 2000 we had Valeron, Mendieta (the part where he is a flop is a joke), Fran, and Pep freaking Guardiola. In 2002 we had an extra edition in Baraja who did well. 2004? We had the injury prone but skilled Vicente, Xavi, and the same performers as mentioned. 2006? Squad was younger but the midfield play was superb, sadly, Raul flopped hard again.


See, it wasn't that he didn't receive service even in the time when our midfield was not working, it was that he missed a 1000 chances and was no where to be seen when we needed him. He disappeared, flopped you name it.

So the argument that he did not receive service is invalid. Speaking of all of you saying he would have thrived in the tiki taka, HELLO! Raul played many times in Aragones' system and even flopped harder! Which is why David Villa was chosen and he was 3 times the player was than Raul was for Espana NT in every possible way. Why isn't Telmo Zarra or Hierro mentioned instead of this guy?

Also, Raul's partner in crime Fernando Morientes was even better than him when given the chance.

As for the best player of Espana, Casillas as much as i love him, is not. Iniesta did not have nearly the amount of influence that Xavi did for us, while Villa is only our best striker of all time while Luis Suarez can only challenge Xavito for the title but for me and much of Espana, he is our jewel and best of all time.