Forza Rossoneri wrote:Some interesting records...

Last time a Spanish team apart from Barca won the CL: 2001/02 R. Madrid

Last time a Spanish team apart from Barca or R. Madrid won the CL: NEVER

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Last time a German team won the CL: 2000/01 Bayern

Last time a German team apart from Bayern won the CL: 1996/97 Dortmund

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Last time an Italian team won the CL: 2009/10 Inter

Last time an Italian team apart from Inter won the CL: 2006/07 Milan

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CL's won in the last 5 years:

Spain 2 (Barca 2)

Italy 2 (Inter, Milan)

England 1 (Man U)

Germany NONE

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CL's won in the last 10 years:

Spain 4 (Barca 3, R. Madrid)

Italy 3 (Inter, Milan 2)

England 2 (Man U, Liverpool)

Portugal 1 (Porto)

Germany NONE

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It's these records that seriously makes me doubt Germany's relevance in Europe and the relevance of La Liga teams other than Barca and Real Madrid.

Comparing the Bundesliga to the Premier League, Serie A and La Liga is not a debate. Bundesliga are DEFINITELY not superior to any of these leagues, whether we're going back 20 years or 20 minutes for data

Forza Rossoneri wrote: the relevance of La Liga teams other than Barca and Real Madrid.

Laughable.


Italy,La liga and EPL both have 2 winners in past 10 years still you single out la liga?

on what basis


How about "the relevance of Serie a teams other than Milan and Inter" ?
..................

On topic,serie a currently is 4th best league behind Bundesliga,they should earn it throw performances instead of moaning...

Well, in another thread I already stated in detail that's because the BL in the last years got their finances in order, started a professional youth setup and didn't overspend. We are now reaping the benefits of financially stable clubs, excellent youth products etc.

The past is always nice and good, but we live in the present, and the clubs in Spain, England and Italy start to realise that their economical model is questionable, while the BL has no worries whatsoever about sustainability. We build for the long term, not short term here.

Whilst I don't believe that Champions League and Europa League performances should be at all considered equal, I'm also opposed to retrospectively altering the definitions and it's frankly a good lesson to the Italian teams that if they want the league to be respected that they need to take these competitions seriously and build sustainable and deep squads. It's lovely seeing the likes of Fiorentina, Udinese, Sampdoria and Napoli achieving positions in Serie A which allowed them to achieve Champions League routes - though two fell in the qualifying stage - however - along with Napoli - their investments have been completely aimless. The entire league needed a kick in the teeth to realise this, the message wasn't going to be taken seriously until it hurt.

The league needs to earn its way back to the upper echelons of the co-efficient charts, as Germany did, however the other path that needs to be discussed is that it may no longer be possible to justify allowing only three leagues to have four spots. Whether one league, three leagues or five leagues have this privilege, the definition is always going to be arbitrary to an extent and a reshuffle of the Champions and non-Champions route to ensure that these rules are keeping pace with the power shifts of the game.

Adit wrote:

Forza Rossoneri wrote: the relevance of La Liga teams other than Barca and Real Madrid.

Laughable.


Italy,La liga and EPL both have 2 winners in past 10 years still you single out la liga?

on what basis


How about "the relevance of Serie a teams other than Milan and Inter" ?
..................

On topic,serie a currently is 4th best league behind Bundesliga,they should earn it throw performances instead of moaning...

In response to your first point, La Liga is the only league where there have been 2 winners in the last 10 years and where there has also never been a winner other than those two clubs. Not meaning to single out La Liga, the fact that no German Club has won the CL in the time Italy has claimed 3 titles is also significant.

On your second point, you are correct that Italian teams need to lift their performances in Europe because that is the only way to get that fourth spot back at the moment. Nevertheless, as Dost wrote above, there is no reason why the system has to remain as it is, it is arbitrary. Hence, complaining about this is not an entirely futile pursuit.

Hmm, basically, Milan won against Arsenal at home which never showed up that night and you bring up the talk about coefficients?
Let's see how many Italian teams will make the quarters

Immortal Babun wrote:Hmm, basically, Milan won against Arsenal at home which never showed up that night and you bring up the talk about coefficients?
Let's see how many Italian teams will make the quarters

There are already more Italian teams in the CL this year than any other league. No need to wait until quarters to have this debate.

Forza Rossoneri wrote:

Immortal Babun wrote:Hmm, basically, Milan won against Arsenal at home which never showed up that night and you bring up the talk about coefficients?
Let's see how many Italian teams will make the quarters

There are already more Italian teams in the CL this year than any other league. No need to wait until quarters to have this debate.

The only team that had to sweat was Napoli. I don't buy qulaification for KO stages as something out of this world. If they're as strong as you mention refering to history let's see how far they'll get. My guess, AC Milan will be eliminated in quarters

You got the idea behind coefficients wrong. If a team is strong in CL then they'll arrive most likely in places 1-3 in their league to qualify again. So the coefficient doesn't question how strong the top dogs are.
The real question is, is the league competetive from rock bottom to the first place? To answer this you need a sample from the strongest teams in the league and they're the ones which finish 1-6th place.
Next question, you say your league is superior. How are you going to prove it?
If say the 3 teams in CL perform and the others in EL don't then it means that there's no need for 4th CL place because the rest of the league is weak. The strong teams will get to play CL anyway. There's nothing wrong with the system and it's even better because the placement is evaluated over a long period of time (5years)

Also at opinions which want to warrant more points for CL wins Who is going to profit from an extra CL place? The team that finishes fourth in the league or lower. Why should they qualify on the merits of the first 3? If anything, it should be the other way around ( more points for EL wins). If you want an extra place in Cl, prove in El that you're too strong

Immortal Babun wrote:

Forza Rossoneri wrote:

Immortal Babun wrote:Hmm, basically, Milan won against Arsenal at home which never showed up that night and you bring up the talk about coefficients?
Let's see how many Italian teams will make the quarters

There are already more Italian teams in the CL this year than any other league. No need to wait until quarters to have this debate.

The only that had to sweat was Napoli. I don't buy qulaification for KO stages as something out of this world. If they're as strong as you mention refering to history let's see how far they'll get. My guess, AC Milan will be eliminated in quarters

You got the idea behind coefficients wrong. If a team is strong in CL then they'll arrive most likely in places 1-3 in their league to qualify again. So the coefficient doesn't question how strong the top dogs are.
The real question is, is the league competetive from rock bottom to the first place? To answer this you need a sample from the strongest teams in the league and they're the ones which finish 1-6th place.
Next question, you say your league is superior. How are you going to prove it?
If say the 3 teams in CL perform and the others in EL don't then it means that there's no need for 4th CL place because the rest of the league is weak. The strong teams will get to play CL anyway. There's nothing wrong with the system and it's even better because the placement is evaluated over a long period of time (5years)

What is the point of trying to gauge the quality of a league from top to bottom by judging the performances of the teams that finish 1-7? In reality, the coefficient is a grading of the top teams in each league only.

In theory you are correct about teams not performing in the EL signalling lack of depth in the league (really it's just representative of the teams just below CL standard), however the problem in Italy is not lack of depth, but lack of motivation.

Unlike Spain, for example, Italy usually puts all it's CL teams to the round of 16 at least so they have no impact in the easier EL. The EL teams that come in from finishing below the CL positions in the league don't get enough financial incentives to make it worth their while fielding a strong team. Instead they would prefer to focus on the league... where they can aspire to getting into the much more lucrative CL. The bottom line is that this attitude seriously has to change if the system stays the same.

Fielding an under par team in EL could be considerd cheating. Example, I've got x money to get players. I could get quality people in less numbers with the same money but my squad depth would suffer greatly.
Second version, I buy only some quality players and the rest is mediocore to strengthen my depth.
Now, from what you say Serie A teams work with the first concept (look at Napoli's placing now). Teams that perform well in EL year for year could do the same and be a lot stronger.
You're right that EL should reward the competitors with more money but allowing a team to play CL with a squad which is build to compete in league only is cheating

Immortal Babun wrote:Also at opinions which want to warrant more points for CL wins Who is going to profit from an extra CL place? The team that finishes fourth in the league or lower. Why should they qualify on the merits of the first 3? If anything, it should be the other way around ( more points for EL wins). If you want an extra place in Cl, prove in El that you're too strong

What's the point of dominating EL when it does not grant you an automatic entry to CL?

Top league placement = CL, EL winner = only guaranteed entry to EL.

One would logically to try to dominate the league, before considering to dominate EL

Seth wrote:

Immortal Babun wrote:Also at opinions which want to warrant more points for CL wins Who is going to profit from an extra CL place? The team that finishes fourth in the league or lower. Why should they qualify on the merits of the first 3? If anything, it should be the other way around ( more points for EL wins). If you want an extra place in Cl, prove in El that you're too strong

What's the point of dominating EL when it does not grant you an automatic entry to CL?

I agree on this one! The finalists should be granted the permission to compete in CL. It would be the best system

Immortal Babun wrote:
I agree on this one! The finalists should be granted the permission to compete in CL. It would be the best system

Will never happen unless Babun replaced Platini :lol!:

Immortal Babun wrote:Fielding an under par team in EL could be considerd cheating. Example, I've got x money to get players. I could get quality people in less numbers with the same money but my squad depth would suffer greatly.
Second version, I buy only some quality players and the rest is mediocore to strengthen my depth.
Now, from what you say Serie A teams work with the first concept (look at Napoli's placing now). Teams that perform well in EL year for year could do the same and be a lot stronger.
You're right that EL should reward the competitors with more money but allowing a team to play CL with a squad which is build to compete in league only is cheating

It's not really cheating, it's reality. Italian teams have been prioritising Serie A over EL. Teams buy the players that win the games that make them the most money. Economically speaking, winning a league game is more important than winning a EL game. You can't completely blame the teams for not showing commitment to the EL when they need to focus on balancing their books as well.

Seth wrote:

Immortal Babun wrote:
I agree on this one! The finalists should be granted the permission to compete in CL. It would be the best system

Will never happen unless Babun replaced Platini :lol!:

Even better would be to have more than just EL winners promoted to CL, maybe all the EL semi-finalists should be promoted...

Seth wrote:

Immortal Babun wrote:
I agree on this one! The finalists should be granted the permission to compete in CL. It would be the best system

Will never happen unless Babun replaced Platini :lol!:

Don't hate on Platini, the man ruined donkey league (FFP)
Finally, I'll be able to watch quality football in CL again The rebuilding teams just need to gear up

Forza Rossoneri wrote:

Immortal Babun wrote:Fielding an under par team in EL could be considerd cheating. Example, I've got x money to get players. I could get quality people in less numbers with the same money but my squad depth would suffer greatly.
Second version, I buy only some quality players and the rest is mediocore to strengthen my depth.
Now, from what you say Serie A teams work with the first concept (look at Napoli's placing now). Teams that perform well in EL year for year could do the same and be a lot stronger.
You're right that EL should reward the competitors with more money but allowing a team to play CL with a squad which is build to compete in league only is cheating

It's not really cheating, it's reality. Italian teams have been prioritising Serie A over EL. Teams buy the players that win the games that make them the most money. Economically speaking, winning a league game is more important than winning a EL game. You can't completely blame the teams for not showing commitment to the EL when they need to focus on balancing their books as well.

I'll just continue your thought process.
A team gears up for Serie A only. They'll reach the CL places. Next year, they play in both competitions. Due to lack of depth they'll end outside of CL places
Next year, another team repeats their feat and so on...

Did you notice something?

In my opinion the 4th spot should be given back to Serie A and Donkey League loses it's 4th spot instead.

Donkey League should be grateful if that happens, so they can avoid getting humiliated. Becouse they will. They suck that much.

Immortal Babun wrote:Hmm, basically, Milan won against Arsenal at home which never showed up that night and you bring up the talk about coefficients?
Let's see how many Italian teams will make the quarters

Sorry, but how many Spanish team made the best 16?
On a side note, let's take a loot at Valencia, they are third in La Liga but still they badly crashed out of CL. I do support Valencia because they usually play nice football, but their CL performance was below par. So I don't think you should take notes on Italian teams..

Btw, sadly the EL trend doesn't seem to change as both Italian teams performed sooo badly yesterday (Udinese and Lazio).

dronte wrote:

Immortal Babun wrote:Hmm, basically, Milan won against Arsenal at home which never showed up that night and you bring up the talk about coefficients?
Let's see how many Italian teams will make the quarters

Sorry, but how many Spanish team made the best 16?
On a side note, let's take a loot at Valencia, they are third in La Liga but still they badly crashed out of CL. I do support Valencia because they usually play nice football, but their CL performance was below par. So I don't think you should take notes on Italian teams..

Btw, sadly the EL trend doesn't seem to change as both Italian teams performed sooo badly yesterday (Udinese and Lazio).

I wanted to make my point clear to Forzarossoneri. Financial stability plays a very big part to show whether a league is healthy or not. Valencia have the same problem like Serie A teams. They don't have the depth to compete in many competitions. They buy a small number of quality people instead of a balanced squad

Se7en wrote:In my opinion the 4th spot should be given back to Serie A and Donkey League loses it's 4th spot instead.

Donkey League should be grateful if that happens, so they can avoid getting humiliated. Becouse they will. They suck that much.

No, they have 6 strong teams each year I just pointed out that they won't be able to strangle all other leagues with their extraordinary spending power (Chelski, Man Sh!tty etc.)

Immortal Babun wrote:

Forza Rossoneri wrote:

Immortal Babun wrote:Fielding an under par team in EL could be considerd cheating. Example, I've got x money to get players. I could get quality people in less numbers with the same money but my squad depth would suffer greatly.
Second version, I buy only some quality players and the rest is mediocore to strengthen my depth.
Now, from what you say Serie A teams work with the first concept (look at Napoli's placing now). Teams that perform well in EL year for year could do the same and be a lot stronger.
You're right that EL should reward the competitors with more money but allowing a team to play CL with a squad which is build to compete in league only is cheating

It's not really cheating, it's reality. Italian teams have been prioritising Serie A over EL. Teams buy the players that win the games that make them the most money. Economically speaking, winning a league game is more important than winning a EL game. You can't completely blame the teams for not showing commitment to the EL when they need to focus on balancing their books as well.

I'll just continue your thought process.
A team gears up for Serie A only. They'll reach the CL places. Next year, they play in both competitions. Due to lack of depth they'll end outside of CL places
Next year, another team repeats their feat and so on...

Did you notice something?

On the contrary, you get money for your good season and getting into CL --> you invest it in depth --> you try to handle both competitions as best you can - which I have to add is very hard for even the top teams.

Anyway, it's not a question of depth versus quality players, it is a question of money. Playing your best team in the league and resting your key players in the EL is sensible from that standpoint- although evidently not good for Italy's coefficient score.

@Forza, did you change your name or you were always Forza Rossoneri?
I like you no homo

Forza Rossoneri wrote:It's not really cheating, it's reality. Italian teams have been prioritising Serie A over EL. Teams buy the players that win the games that make them the most money. Economically speaking, winning a league game is more important than winning a EL game. You can't completely blame the teams for not showing commitment to the EL when they need to focus on balancing their books as well.

Strangely enough the Bundesliga teams managed to balance their books and still be competitive in the EL. So that argument doesn't sound 100% valid to me.

rwo power wrote:

Forza Rossoneri wrote:It's not really cheating, it's reality. Italian teams have been prioritising Serie A over EL. Teams buy the players that win the games that make them the most money. Economically speaking, winning a league game is more important than winning a EL game. You can't completely blame the teams for not showing commitment to the EL when they need to focus on balancing their books as well.

Strangely enough the Bundesliga teams managed to balance their books and still be competitive in the EL. So that argument doesn't sound 100% valid to me.

Simple. Far better infrastructure, organisation and economic situation in Germany. It's miraculous that there are so many quality teams in Serie A with all those problems in Italy.