Has the EPL been found out?

When people say the EPL is the best what do they mean? That it's the best in quality? Best in competitiveness? Best in entertainment? If we go for quality, then no, historicaly and even now, the EPL has neer been and will probably never be the best league in terms of actually quality, by quality I mean the basics of football, technique, ball control etc.

In terms of competitiveness and entertainment I will say yes, and I will give my reasons why. The EPL, historically, has been a very physical league. The reason that it is as competitive is because it is basically all about physicality and stamina, if you have technique, you will win, but technique isn't the main thing, as Arsenal have shown on multiple occasions. When People say the prem is better than La liga, The bundesliga or La liga, I always ask what makes them say that. Their response? La lIga is a two horse race, Series A is finished and the Bundesliga is crap. I then tell them that in the last decade, only 3 teams have won the premiership, Arsenal, Manchester United and Chelsea. La Liga has been won by 4 different teams, Valencia, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Deporivo. The Bundesliga has been won by 5 different teams, Bayern, Dortmund, Bremen, Stuttgart and Wolsfberg. Serie A has been won 4 different teams, Roma, Juventus, Inter and Milan. On informing them on this, their response? Well The EPL has dominated the champions league. ANd that again is another myth.

Lets just look at the CL winners in terms of leagues since the format was changed in 92. It has been won by an EPL 3 times, La liga has won it 6 times, a Serie A team has won it 5 times, German team has won it 2 times. Now for me dominance ia about dominating the champions league. In the last 7 CL finals, There has been at least one English team in 6 of them. And only two winners? What kind of dominance is that? Serie A is supposedly going through some sort of crisis, yet they've had the same amount of CL winners as the almighty EPL. Why is this so? The truth is, the ENglish game holds the premiership teams back in the CL and the EPL, for all it's pace and physicality, is some way of the other leagues. The problem with English football is that it has refused to adapt and change. Maybe it is the innate snubbery that is found in the English society, where they feel that they are above everyone else and it's their way or the highway, and this is just not in football, you can see it in politics, with the UK refusing to adopt the Euros (I'm not saying it was the wrong decision), and English being capable of only speaking English (and they barely speak it correctly!), while other big nations can speak multiple languages. It's this stubborness that has seen English football keep falling behind. The media used to say, wow we have the best league, it has taken two humbling byy Barcelona and Spain dominating the international stage to open their eyes. Now the media are calling for more technical players. Where was this shout out 20 years ago? English people are generally against foreign influence, and ironically, the reason that te EPL 'strong' as it is is due to investing in Foreign talent, and not homegrown, but other leagues have mostly their own nationalities within their league. So is it not ironic that a league that culturally refused to change has been betetred by foreign investment through cash injections and talent? SAF is probably the greatest manager in ENglish football. and he has been in charge of Manchester United for 25 years, why has it taken him the later stages of his Managerial career for Manchester United to be consistent in Europe? The probelm is the culture agin of British football. It took two foreign managers, Arsene Wenger and Jose Mourinho for him to finally getthe formula right. When Unityed won the Champions League in 99, it was a great achievement, not only becasue of the other trophies United won, but becaue of the way they did it, they won in typical British style, with heart and throwing everything forward. With that Philosophy, United conceded a lot of goals but scored more than the opponents. Would we ever see that again. Probably not, which is why that team should be cherished.

Jose Mourinho came and introduced his tactical influence on the league and was consistently doing well in Europe. Rafa Benitez, even though he did nothing domestically always did well in Europe and even won a cl with Liverpool. Only with the introduction of foreign coach Carlos Quieroz, were United able to finally take their place amongst Europes elite. People are always looking at the Spanish players in envy, saying why can't we be like that? Well, maybe if you concentrated on teaching kids how to control the ball instead of making them glorified athletes, we would be on their level. Kids aren't born with technical abilityies of Xavi. Obviously some will be more talented than others but they have to be trained the basics from day 1. Owen Hargreaves is probably the most technically gifted English footballer, probably besides Paul Scholes since Gazar, and he wasn't schooled in ENgland. He is a Bayern youth product. The irony!

The person who I feel sorry for the most is Arsene Wenger. God knows why he doesn't just quit this league, he's too good for it tbh. The man is always abused by the media and his influence on Britsig=h football, in terms of fitness and sports science, and training methods were never recognized. It's sad. Part of me wanted him to take the Real Madrid job so he can show the world what he can really do. The man has a great philosophy, coaches his players in the technical aspects pf the game, and gets his team to play arguably, the most entertainng football in Europe. In any other league, Arsene would have won multiple trophies and would have probably won the champions league, instead he has to stay up all night balancing technique and grace with outright savagery of English football, and because of thte nature of the EPL, Arsenes teams are usually overpowered by the bigger teams or fail in Europe. Technique and Elgance can only get you so far. Arsene Wenger could have been the Premierships own Cruyff, instead he is constantly mocked by the media. When the little playmaking MF were dying out, Arsene was one of the few managers that saw the way that tactics in Europe and were going and decided to start using smaller more tchnical mf. Now it has become in vogue, everyone wants one in the EPL. United had Scholes and now have Cleverley. Chelsea have bought Mata from Spain, City have brought in David Silva. I am a United fan, but I honestly hope that man wins the premiership before his time is over.

I don't think the lack of technical players argument is as strong as it used to be. We have seen a steady increase in the adoption of 'continental' players and tactics over the past 10 years, and if we look at a number of the purchases over the past 5 years we'll see that a lot of top-team newly incorporated players could play for "more technical" competitors. The EPL might not be there yet, and definitely not in terms of youth development bar Arsenal, but there has been a trend that should not be understated.

Also, I find it hard to reconcile the fact that you propose that the EPL does not win enough in Europe because of a lack of technique, whereas at the same time admitting the most talented team in the EPL has yet to win a title since 2004. Seems contradictory and oversimplified to me.

After all, Liverpool got a shed load of criticism by media for being Spanish, and not giving a chance to English players.

Times and times again, Sky commentators said, those soft foreigners are the reason Liverpool can't win @ Britannia. How the team is too continential, and how a biased Spanish coach gives more time to Spanish players.

As you said, they are reluctant to change...


Fantastic point about United becoming part of Europe's elites in CL after arrival of Mou, Benitez and Quiroz. Fergie learnt from those 3 on how to do well in Europe. I've been saying that for some time....

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't think the lack of technical players argument is as strong as it used to be. We have seen a steady increase in the adoption of 'continental' players and tactics over the past 10 years, and if we look at a number of the purchases over the past 5 years we'll see that a lot of top-team newly incorporated players could play for "more technical" competitors. The EPL might not be there yet, and definitely not in terms of youth development bar Arsenal, but there has been a trend that should not be understated.

Also, I find it hard to reconcile the fact that you propose that the EPL does not win enough in Europe because of a lack of technique, whereas at the same time admitting the most talented team in the EPL has yet to win a title since 2004. Seems contradictory and oversimplified to me.

I'm sorry If I was not clear enough, this was just an early morning rant becasue some mronos where annoying me. There are other factors besides technique. Mainly the style of the EPL itself, the laxity of the rules meaning tha the refereeing in the EPL is much much different than those in the CL. Other leagues have similar refereeing standards but they can adapt a lot easier. EPL teams struggle also becasue ofthe pace and physicality, where as in europe, the tempos is much slower and EPL teams generally find it hard to adjust afer playing most of their games at a particluar pace. Which is why I was shocked when people were saying City will win the CL or do well. It took SAF years to get his tactics right and UNited in Europe are not the same UNited they are in the EPL. He has mastered the transition, but I fear he had his last shot against BArcelona.

That's my point about Arsene he is a contradiction. In trying to adopt his philosophical model in a place that is not willing to accept it, he has to make compromises and this leads to his failure on both Domestinc and European fronts as he has found a balance of teh two, but the balance is not enough for him to overcome the overly physical teams is the EPL, or the teams with better technique, in the CL.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarifications, I generally agree.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarifications, I generally agree.

Also the lack of tactical inflexibility contributed to this. The closest tha any team playin the EPL style came to winning it since 99 is United in 2007, but we were embarrassed by kaka and Milan and made to look tactically inept in the San Siro.

Lol, I got negged

jibers wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarifications, I generally agree.

Also the lack of tactical inflexibility contributed to this. The closest tha any team playin the EPL style came to winning it since 99 is United in 2007, but we were embarrassed by kaka and Milan and made to look tactically inept in the San Siro.

Lol, I got negged

No worries man. I got negged for posting the news of passing of Liverpool reserves' GK 4 year old son

The Arsenal that beat Barca had everything, heart of an English team, but was more modern. For me that is the future of football in the EPL. That is the way English football will be in the next two decades. Once again, Arsene is way ahead of FAILpl

Chievo may win or draw any BPL team on a day. AC Milan will win 7 game of 10 against any BPL team, including ManU. Napoli, oh no they can win Milan, unfortunatley. I am becomibg napoli fan. LOL

well the problem the league has is the same problem the national team has but worse, due to so many foreigners playin in the league which means less english talent coming through.

and as you said compared to other nations english players are technically and tactically inept hence there failure at major tournaments.

but in saying that every nation has there own way of playing and its kinda hard to change for instnce italy will always be a nation that goes for that early goal or 2 and then will be happy to sit back and soak up the pressure.

although prandelli has kinda changed that has gone for a very attacking approach.

i still think in terms of competitiveness its the best league in the world.

but for people who love technical and tactical football well serie a la liga and bl are alll better

leemhuis wrote:Chievo may win or draw any BPL team on a day. AC Milan will win 7 game of 10 against any BPL team, including ManU. Napoli, oh no they can win Milan, unfortunatley. I am becomibg napoli fan. LOL

Same Milan who lost 7-2 to United and couldn't score a single goal past Spurs when Spurs were struggling in the league ?

michael1 wrote: roach.

i still think in terms of competitiveness its the best league in the world.

No, Serie A have more competitive.

leemhuis wrote:

michael1 wrote: roach.

i still think in terms of competitiveness its the best league in the world.

No, Serie A have more competitive.

hmm yea maybe this season you could argue that with like six teams being in the running to win the league in serie a, its gonna be very very intresting.

whoever ends up winning will have to work hard for it.

man city i know its early and espc if they get knocked out of cl they will walk to the premiership this year

michael1 wrote:well the problem the league has is the same problem the national team has but worse, due to so many foreigners playin in the league which means less english talent coming through.

and as you said compared to other nations english players are technically and tactically inept hence there failure at major tournaments.

but in saying that every nation has there own way of playing and its kinda hard to change for instnce italy will always be a nation that goes for that early goal or 2 and then will be happy to sit back and soak up the pressure.

although prandelli has kinda changed that has gone for a very attacking approach.

i still think in terms of competitiveness its the best league in the world.

but for people who love technical and tactical football well serie a la liga and bl are alll better

Of course every nation has a style of play. Italy historically are very insecure hence they adopted defensive tactics. Italians were the frist teams to start using a back four, no surprise there, but again it's tactical evolutions like that that ENgland has. Mourninho had to come in to do it. Wenger has sort of had an effect but he isn't appreciated. Saachi proved that Italy is more than their defence, improving Zonal marking and taking pressing to a new level before this Barcelona side came. SPain has been influenced by Cruyff as a whole and its no surprise that Spain has reaped the benefits of his philosophy. Spain changed the way they played and went form trying to be physical to adopting the Barcelona model. It changed them. Germany were always ssen as typical Germans and now their NT has eveolved and they are playing te most entertaining football. Germany...the most entertaining NT. Say that to anyone 20+ years ago and you would have gotten a slap or be put in prison. These NT are reaping the rewatds of a particular philosophy, both in tactics, training and coaching. Serie A is going back up. Watch Enriqure succeed at ROma and get praised. If Arsene had gone to Italy he would have won the CL by now. Only the EPL will refuse to change becaseu for it to change, the it would e no different to any other league and the reason it is marketed as the best is because of those things i mentioned before. Strip ithe EPL of that and what have you got left? People would realsie how primitive the league actually is and tune off to watch better leagues.

leemhuis wrote:Chievo may win or draw any BPL team on a day. AC Milan will win 7 game of 10 against any BPL team, including ManU. Napoli, oh no they can win Milan, unfortunatley. I am becomibg napoli fan. LOL

Comparing teams from different leagues is stupid. The EPl teams are influenced by the rules there. If Milan were exported to EPL they would struggle just as much as if United were exported to La liga. United havent played EPL football in Europe since 2007. So you saying that just shows how naive you are. The only team in the EPL that I think would survive La liga is Arsenal and the most Universal, team for me in Europe atm is MAdrid, they seem to have adopted every style. My point being that Teams play football based on their leagues, so if Milan were to go to the EPl they woluld not survive simply for the fact that they aren't used to playing at such a pace, as United would struggle playing 38 games in la liga playing at such slow tempos and consistently playing against teams with much better technique and with stricter refereeing rules. The comparison is moot.

Sepi wrote:

leemhuis wrote:Chievo may win or draw any BPL team on a day. AC Milan will win 7 game of 10 against any BPL team, including ManU. Napoli, oh no they can win Milan, unfortunatley. I am becomibg napoli fan. LOL

Same Milan who lost 7-2 to United and couldn't score a single goal past Spurs when Spurs were struggling in the league ?

No, the Milan not in a period of decline due to retirements and ageing after beating Liverpool in 2007, without half the squad injured and the one now with a coach who has gained experience from a title-winning campaign.

To compare Milan at their lowest points in European competition over the last few years alongside the current Milan team is irrelevant to what was said, which is quite clearly intended to mean if Milan played any EPL team at the present time or future. While we're at it, why not compare Milan 2006/07 or 2002/03 to EPL teams now?

So to answer the question... is it the same Milan? Clearly not.

At risk of over-simplifying things here, isn't the issue with English clubs at the moment their inability to actually defend competently and not a lack of technical quality?

The reason why United and Chelsea are not doing so well in Europe at the moment is because defensively they've not been good enough. Ironically, the reason Arsenal have done okay is because defensively they have been semi-competent. Not great, but decent enough so as to not concede that many opportunities to the opposition.

The problem for me is not a lack of technical quality, but clubs deploying the wrong tactics for certain situations. I don't recall United winning the Champions League because they were techncially surperior to every side in the competition, but because tactically they were sound. Inter won the Champions League because they were excellent tactically.

This season, we have an uncharastically gung-ho United side conceding too many chances and a Chelsea side playing with unfamiliar defensive tactics and suffering from a transition a styles.

There's an obsession with tehcnical ability at the moment because of the success of Barcelona and Spain, but in my opinion tactics are more important. English sides need to re-adjust, perhaps even catch up a bit, in the tactics used nowadays.

GoonerJay29 wrote:At risk of over-simplifying things here, isn't the issue with English clubs at the moment their inability to actually defend competently and not a lack of technical quality?

The reason why United and Chelsea are not doing so well in Europe at the moment is because defensively they've not been good enough. Ironically, the reason Arsenal have done okay is because defensively they have been semi-competent. Not great, but decent enough so as to not concede that many opportunities to the opposition.

The problem for me is not a lack of technical quality, but clubs deploying the wrong tactics for certain situations. I don't recall United winning the Champions League because they were techncially surperior to every side in the competition, but because tactically they were sound. Inter won the Champions League because they were excellent tactically.

This season, we have an uncharastically gung-ho United side conceding too many chances and a Chelsea side playing with unfamiliar defensive tactics and suffering from a transition a styles.

There's an obsession with tehcnical ability at the moment because of the success of Barcelona and Spain, but in my opinion tactics are more important. English sides need to re-adjust, perhaps even catch up a bit, in the tactics used nowadays.

I agree, as I said, the reason for uniteds consistency is fervid finally getting his tactics right. But I'm talking generally here, even before the last 7 years, hw well had English teams don? England lacl everything, tactic, technique and individuals.

Meh, when I opened the EPL in decline threads I didn't care about technical midfielders or league vs. league comparisons. The quality in top teams is detoriating in general, less to do with style or tactics
Why? At the moment they can't afford to spend like they did in the previous years
Why are Arsenal doing well relativly to others? They were never heavily reliant on spending sprees

babun1024 wrote:Meh, when I opened the EPL in decline threads I didn't care about technical midfielders or league vs. league comparisons. The quality in top teams is detoriating in general, less to do with style or tactics
Why? At the moment they can't afford to spend like they did in the previous years
Why are Arsenal doing well relativly to others? They were never heavily reliant on spending sprees

United haven't been able o spend massively for a long time. Not sure if serious. Last season? No? Unite are doing badly because of bad defending, Chelsea are adapting to completely foreign tactics and City are just too knew to the pace of the Cl. The problems I listed are the deeper rooted problems.

jibers wrote:

babun1024 wrote:Meh, when I opened the EPL in decline threads I didn't care about technical midfielders or league vs. league comparisons. The quality in top teams is detoriating in general, less to do with style or tactics
Why? At the moment they can't afford to spend like they did in the previous years
Why are Arsenal doing well relativly to others? They were never heavily reliant on spending sprees

United haven't been able o spend massively for a long time. Not sure if serious. Last season? No? Unite are doing badly because of bad defending, Chelsea are adapting to completely foreign tactics and City are just too knew to the pace of the Cl. The problems I listed are the deeper rooted problems.

Rio is crap now and no Scholes anymore. Were they foreign technical midfielders by chance? United don't have the money to find adequate replacements. Why is their defence so shakey? The midfield protection consists of Fletcher only... To score goals with less creativity, United commits more people forward. Rooney has to play the binding link I mean he is only one man
Chelski have an aging squad no matter who coaches them. Abramovitch would need to revamp half of their starting 11 to win something again
Man City are the only true idiots in EPL. They have bought every attacker in the world but havy a Barry or Milner in midfield for creativity. Also, Mancini is a coward tactically :lol!:

babun1024 wrote:

jibers wrote:

babun1024 wrote:Meh, when I opened the EPL in decline threads I didn't care about technical midfielders or league vs. league comparisons. The quality in top teams is detoriating in general, less to do with style or tactics
Why? At the moment they can't afford to spend like they did in the previous years
Why are Arsenal doing well relativly to others? They were never heavily reliant on spending sprees

United haven't been able o spend massively for a long time. Not sure if serious. Last season? No? Unite are doing badly because of bad defending, Chelsea are adapting to completely foreign tactics and City are just too knew to the pace of the Cl. The problems I listed are the deeper rooted problems.

Rio is crap now and no Scholes anymore. Were they foreign technical midfielders by chance? United don't have the money to find adequate replacements. Why is their defence so shakey? The midfield protection consists of Fletcher only... To score goals with less creativity, United commits more people forward. Rooney has to play the binding link I mean he is only one man
Chelski have an aging squad no matter who coaches them. Abramovitch would need to revamp half of their starting 11 to win something again
Man City are the only true idiots in EPL. They have bought every attacker in the world but havy a Barry or Milner in midfield for creativity. Also, Mancini is a coward tactically :lol!:

rio didn't play that many games and neither did scholes . We lack a decent cm apart from Cleverley tbh.

jibers wrote:

babun1024 wrote:

jibers wrote:

babun1024 wrote:Meh, when I opened the EPL in decline threads I didn't care about technical midfielders or league vs. league comparisons. The quality in top teams is detoriating in general, less to do with style or tactics
Why? At the moment they can't afford to spend like they did in the previous years
Why are Arsenal doing well relativly to others? They were never heavily reliant on spending sprees

United haven't been able o spend massively for a long time. Not sure if serious. Last season? No? Unite are doing badly because of bad defending, Chelsea are adapting to completely foreign tactics and City are just too knew to the pace of the Cl. The problems I listed are the deeper rooted problems.

Rio is crap now and no Scholes anymore. Were they foreign technical midfielders by chance? United don't have the money to find adequate replacements. Why is their defence so shakey? The midfield protection consists of Fletcher only... To score goals with less creativity, United commits more people forward. Rooney has to play the binding link I mean he is only one man
Chelski have an aging squad no matter who coaches them. Abramovitch would need to revamp half of their starting 11 to win something again
Man City are the only true idiots in EPL. They have bought every attacker in the world but havy a Barry or Milner in midfield for creativity. Also, Mancini is a coward tactically :lol!:

rio didn't play that many games and neither did scholes . We lack a decent cm apart from Cleverley tbh.

I didn't say anything else, that was my point. United suffer because those two are past it
Anderson, Carrick or whoever, they aren't good enough at top level Your defence without Vidic is...

To answer Jibers' question directly. I think the EPL has definitely been found out and that was only a matter of time. They stuck with what was tried and true and now their competitors know exactly how to play against them. The lack of ambition to stay ahead of everyone else when they had the chance to is borderline criminal, especially for a league that self-styles itself "The best in the world". The best stay ahead of the game, the EPL fell behind and are now suffering the consequences of that.

McLewis wrote:To answer Jibers' question directly. I think the EPL has definitely been found out and that was only a matter of time. They stuck with what was tried and true and now their competitors know exactly how to play against them. The lack of ambition to stay ahead of everyone else when they had the chance to is borderline criminal, especially for a league that self-styles itself "The best in the world". The best stay ahead of the game, the EPL fell behind and are now suffering the consequences of that.

Looool. Can yo be more specific how they fel behind? Tactics, investment in youth? Technique?