Calling all Political Buffs...

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Post by JuvenelCuore Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:19 pm

Winston Churchill once remarked: “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” Do you agree or disagree with this statement? Construct an argument by materials from the readings and lectures in your essay.

My essay topic for University. Honestly, I know not a lot about politics, and so I was wondering if the political experts present, from what I have seen in the well-written and well-versed threads of complex analysis, could help me out here.

What exactly is the quote saying ? And how exactly should I approach it ?

Cheers.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:24 pm

yes, I completely agree. I will come back with a larger explanation tomorrow.
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Post by Senor Penguin Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:30 pm

Democracy is built on a fallacy. Argumentum ad populum. It's a dictatorship of the majority. :cyclops:

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Post by zizzle Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:34 pm

well, what cherchil is trying to say is that democracy sucks balls but its still better than the other forms of goverment that were tried before

i have to go in a few mins so ill post my opinion later tonight, but ill leave you with this amazing birnard show qoute to inspire u

“Democracy is the election by the ignorant [majority] for the corrupted few”.
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Post by TalkingReckless Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:37 pm

I see Democracy bit like Communism..... True form of Democracy can never happen..... Just how Communism can't happen.....


btw this is the full line...

"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise," Winston Churchill once noted. "Indeed," he continued, "it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government — except all the others that have been tried."
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Post by JuvenelCuore Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:47 pm

Wow, immediate response and from the looks of it, more to come.

Due to the restriction of only having class readings, I shall give you what I have been reading about:

September 19
The liberal project

Benjamin Constant, “The Liberty of Ancients Compared with that of Moderns”

September 26 – TUTORIAL #1
The radical response

Karl Marx, “The Communist Manifesto”

October 3 – WRITING TUTORIAL – THESIS and SCOPE
Modern democracy

Andre Blais, “Criteria for Assessing Electoral Systems,” Electoral Insight, June 1999

Juan Linz “The Perils of Presidentialism,” Journal of Democracy, Winter 1990, pp. 1-11.

Donald Horowitz, “Comparing Democratic Systems,” Journal of Democracy, Fall 1990, pp.73-79

Seymour Martin Lipset, “The Centrality of Political Culture,” Journal of Democracy, Fall 1990, pp.80-83.

Juan Linz, “The Virtues of Parliamentarism,” The Journal of Democracy, Fall 1990, pp.84-91.

October 10
Thanksgiving

No class

October 17
The fascist and communist challenges

Henry Ashby Turner, “Fascism and Modernization,” World Politics, Vol.24, no.4, 1972, pp.547-564.

Andrew Janos, “What Was Communism? A Retrospective in Comparative Analysis,” Communist and Post-Communist Studies, vol.29, no.1, 1996, pp.1-24.

October 24 – TUTORIAL #2
Problems of modern democracy

Nathan Glazer, “Democracy and Deep Divides,” Journal of Democracy (Vol. 21, No. 2, 2010), pp. 5-19

Ronojoy Sen, “The Problem of Corruption,” Journal of Democracy (Vol. 20, No. 4, 2009), p. 89-92

Mancur Olson, The Logic of Collective Action (Harvard University Press, 1965), pp. 5-22, 33-36

October 31 – WRITING TUTORIAL – SCOPE AND ORIGINALITY
Democracy with Chinese characteristics

Larry Diamond, “Liberation Technology,” Journal of Democracy (Vol. 21, No. 3, 2010), pp. 69-83

Edward Friedman, “Why the Dominant Party in China Won’t Lose,” in E. Friedman and J. Wong, eds., Political Transitions in Dominant Party Systems: Learning to Lose (Routledge, 2009), pp. 252-268

Andrew Nathan, “Authoritarian Impermanence,” Journal of Democracy (Vol. 20, No. 3, 2009), pp. 37-40

November 7
Fall Break

I am in no way expecting all of you to read these, but just keep in mind perhaps the system of government expressed in the title of the article as to build or compare an argument to democracy.

Lastly, should I agree with the quote for the sake of keeping the majority popular view ? Or go against it ?
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Post by TalkingReckless Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:54 pm

it's a bit like saying....

“Our government might be a bit shitty but there are bigger turds in the toilet”,
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Post by JuvenelCuore Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:01 pm

imalegend wrote:it's a bit like saying....

“Our government might be a bit shitty but there are bigger turds in the toilet”,

Haha. But I mean, essentially I have to agree that his statement is true, or do what ? Say democracy is not a shit system ? Or say that, for example, Fascism really is the best ?
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Post by TalkingReckless Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:04 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:
imalegend wrote:it's a bit like saying....

“Our government might be a bit shitty but there are bigger turds in the toilet”,

Haha. But I mean, essentially I have to agree that his statement is true, or do what ? Say democracy is not a shit system ? Or say that, for example, Fascism really is the best ?

all forms of government has problems.....there is no such thing as a perfect system.....if there was it would be like a Utopian one which we all know can't happen...


you could say Meritocracy is the best but even that has problems as you can't really decide what "merit" means
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:15 pm

all government is bad except in dire necessities, the best government is the one that can be checked by the people.
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Post by JuvenelCuore Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:41 pm

Yuri Yukuv wrote:all government is bad except in dire necessities, the best government is the one that can be checked by the people.

What government is that ? Unfortunately, I have to use the aforementioned readings as citation, so nothing outside of it Sad.

@IamLegend: point taken, but I mean, what could I argue is better than Democracy ? Essentially I have to agree with Churchill, no ?

Waiting for LordSpencer to come in and steal the show !
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Post by baresi Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:49 am

JuvenelCuore wrote:Winston Churchill once remarked: “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” Do you agree or disagree with this statement? Construct an argument by materials from the readings and lectures in your essay.

My essay topic for University. Honestly, I know not a lot about politics, and so I was wondering if the political experts present, from what I have seen in the well-written and well-versed threads of complex analysis, could help me out here.

What exactly is the quote saying ? And how exactly should I approach it ?

Cheers.
Basically he is saying:
There is nothing that cant be changed in politics, no fixed opinion for ever, for now democracy is the best, but it doesnt mean it is going to remain the best, but till some thing better pops up it is the best"
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Post by baresi Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:57 am

baresi wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:Winston Churchill once remarked: “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” Do you agree or disagree with this statement? Construct an argument by materials from the readings and lectures in your essay.

My essay topic for University. Honestly, I know not a lot about politics, and so I was wondering if the political experts present, from what I have seen in the well-written and well-versed threads of complex analysis, could help me out here.

What exactly is the quote saying ? And how exactly should I approach it ?

Cheers.
Basically he is saying:
There is nothing that cant be changed in politics, no fixed opinion for ever, for now democracy is the best, but it doesnt mean it is going to remain the best, but till some thing better pops up it is the best"

another quote from him that I see it explaining the first one is:
"To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often"
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Post by JuvenelCuore Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:59 am

Thank you Baresi for the explanation and the additional quote, I will for sure be using that. That is important.

So now I wonder if I am to argue that a new system, one that has not been made yet, should be formulated and adopted based on the time period and social changes, etc.

Hmm...completely lost. I have to hand in my theses by the 27 of October, but luckily the final copy is not due until the 14 of November.
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Post by kiranr Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:49 am

There are two things he is saying in the quote.

1) He is saying democracy is not good.
2) He is saying democracy is better than all other forms of government.

You can agree or disagree with each of them and then proceed to give arguments to support your view.
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Post by JuvenelCuore Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:16 am

kiranr wrote:There are two things he is saying in the quote.

1) He is saying democracy is not good.
2) He is saying democracy is better than all other forms of government.

You can agree or disagree with each of them and then proceed to give arguments to support your view.

I see. Any thoughts for arguments guys ?
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Post by JuvenelCuore Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:33 pm

Was thinking of saying democracy is the best but needs to have some changes like:

--> Be more open.
--> Be more direct. USA and Canada have democracies, but it is more like electing someone who elects someone else.

Any other suggestions ?
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Post by Lord Spencer Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:41 pm

Just so you would know, I am stealing the show via pm's.
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Post by JuvenelCuore Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:47 pm

Lord Spencer wrote:Just so you would know, I am stealing the show via pm's.

It is true. :coffee:

Someone challenge him so I can get double the insight...Laughing
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Post by Grande_Milano Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:03 am

If I am correct ''Fathers'' of Us that wrote constitution (cant write remember which in particular) said democracy is not a good way of governing. In the end it comes to majority over minority, which is not fair
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Post by RedOranje Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:04 am

The US do not use a democracy.
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Post by Senor Penguin Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:12 pm

RedOranje wrote:The US do not use a democracy.
It's a constitutional republic, right? But that type of governance is somewhat based on the idea of having a representative democracy, isn't it?

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Post by Grande_Milano Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:24 pm

RedOranje wrote:The US do not use a democracy.

Yeah, thats why it is a republic, which so far is the most perfect form. But watch out for Obama-socialists, your country is already turning...
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Post by Zealous Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:06 am

Meritocracy 4 lyfe banana
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Post by JuvenelCuore Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:21 pm

Anyone up to Skype/MSN and discuss politics ? I have literally no clue what I want to talk about and/or argue.

Have to hand in my thesis tomorrow...

Cheers.
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