Zealous wrote:
However I can blame Suarez for being naive and for failing to clear the matter up quickly by simply apologising and explaining the misunderstanding to Evra.

Zealous wrote:While you make a very good point, you can't really tell someone to not feel offended if they feel something is offending.

It's a muddy line but if someone genuinely feels wronged then it wouldn't be right to just ignore it. At least that's how I feel on the subject.

(Mind you I don't even like Evra, in fact I think he's a twat lol)

RedOranje wrote:
The FA have again taking the easy way out; charging Suarez with misconduct but not outright racism. So they can charge him without actually saying/proving he used a racist term or providing evidence.

Spineless as usual.

Lord Spencer wrote:There is NO racial connection between using the descriptive word "black" in directing an insult at a black player. If he feels offended because he is black, he has serious identity issues.

bhends wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:There is NO racial connection between using the descriptive word "black" in directing an insult at a black player. If he feels offended because he is black, he has serious identity issues.

Of course there is...Don't be naive

If Terry wanted to call Ferdinand a c*** then he should have called him a c***.
If Suarez wanted to call Evra a little bitch then he should've called him a little bitch.

In both cases, they added a "description" (as you would call it) to their language to SPECIFICALLY include the players race, when there was no need for it.

Remember when Luis Aragones called Henry a black piece of shit....Was black just a description?

No racial connection? Come on, you're smarter than that. If there was no racial connection the "description" would never have been added.

bhends wrote:So just to be clear, Luis Aragones calling Henry a black piece of shit...just a description? Not racially connected?

Someone had better go tell Henry that..

Lord Spencer wrote:The race cards being played all around are fraking ridiculous.

The extent of both Suarez and Terry's "crimes" is calling Evra and Anton "black" (Suarez in Spanish). Should they call them white, blue, or orange not to be racist.

Seriously, they did not use a racially discriminatory remark but rather a fraking description. If you are fraking, white, brown, black, blue, orange, red, yellow, or green expect people to call you such. Just as Terry and other white players were called "white trash" several times before.

There is NO racial connection between using the descriptive word "black" in directing an insult at a black player. If he feels offended because he is black, he has serious identity issues.

Here is a an example of a racially loaded insults: (Forgive me mods)
You *bleep* cheap Jew.
You *bleep* terrorist Arab.
You sister fraking inbred White trash.

Here is an example of insults using descriptive language:
You Jew bastard.
You Arab asshole.
You black c*nt.

The difference between the two is that the first uses stereotypes to insult, while the second just uses a description and insults for the sake of insulting.

The Franchise wrote:

For me, its about intent as much as the words.

If someone says you black _____, they are using the word "black" as a negative connotation. It doesnt matter if it is factually correct that I am black, its the context or intent that it is being said.

.

(CNN) -- A racially-charged word with many meanings may be at the root of a dispute between two sports rivals that reaches far beyond the soccer field, analysts say.

Manchester United's Patrice Evra, who is black, says the word Uruguayan Luis Suarez shouted repeatedly during a match last month was a racial slur. Evra demanded that Suarez be held accountable for the controversial exchange, which erupted as authorities investigate other accusations of racism in soccer.

Suarez, a striker for Liverpool, hasn't specified what he said, but he argues that it wasn't offensive.

"I didn't insult him. It was only a form of expressing myself. I called him something his own teammates from Manchester call him," Suarez said, according to the Uruguayan newspaper El Pais.


British media reports have suggested Suarez used the Spanish word "negrito."

If that's the case, whether Suarez's remark was racist is a complicated question that doesn't have a black-and-white answer, according to scholars who've studied race issues in Latin America.

Leading figures call on soccer chief to step down

"It's about questions of translation or context," said Mark Sawyer, director of the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics at the University of California Los Angeles.

The word's literal translation is "little black man." But generally, negrito is not considered a racial slur in Latin America, Sawyer said. In fact, it frequently has a positive meaning.

"It's often a term of endearment," he said.

But what the word means also depends on where -- and how -- it's said.

"In Puerto Rico, it has one meaning. In Cuba it has a slightly different connotation and in the Dominican Republic it has a slightly different connotation," said Jorge Chinea, director of the Center for Chicano-Boricua Studies at Wayne State University in Detroit.

Blatter a controversial figure

Chinea said his mother and stepfather, both of whom were light-skinned, frequently used the word.

"When they talked as a couple, my mother would say, 'negrito, I love you.' ... I grew up listening to those expressions commonly being used by a lot of people in my community in Puerto Rico. And it was never associated with any color," he said.

After he moved to the United States in the 1960s, Chinea said, the word took on a different meaning. Many of his acquaintances used racial nicknames, he said, but there was no harm intended.

"It was always more like a quick way of acknowledging the distinctiveness of that person in a very friendly way," he said.

But Chinea said one of his Cuban colleagues in graduate school who employed the word drew criticism.

"When he used it and other people heard it, people came to me to complain. ... In the United States, it sounds offensive to some people," Chinea said.

In Uruguay, the meaning is clear, said U.S. radio talk show host Fernando Espuelas, who originally hails from the South American country.

"It's not a slur whatsoever," said Espuelas, whose show often addresses racism in the Latino community. "It's a term of endearment. You definitely would not use that if you were angry. It would sound ridiculous."

Blatter comments spark Twitter storm

Several scholars said the word's meaning could be connected with complicated racial politics in different Latin American countries, which each had unique historical experiences with colonization and the slave trade.

Uruguay, Chinea noted, has a smaller population of African descendants than some other Latin American nations. In 2006, about 9% of the population declared "Afro or black" roots, according to Uruguay's National Statistics Institute.

"If I were of African descent and someone from that part of the world was to use the word toward me, I would probably think twice about what the intentions are, whereas if the person who was saying it was from Cuba you'd probably take it as a joke. And if you said it to a Puerto Rican, they'd just love it," Chinea said.
You can see him say a certain word to me at least 10 times. There is no place for that in 2011.
Patrice Evra

Using the word negrito to describe U.S. President Barack Obama got a Honduran government official into hot water in 2009.

Then-Foreign Minister Enrique Ortez was forced to resign after he called Obama a "negrito who does not know where (the Honduran capital of) Tegucigalpa is."

But analysts said without hearing exactly what Suarez shouted in the October football match, or how he said it, it's impossible to know what he meant.

"It's a very interesting case. It will be interesting to see if the English Football Association actually consults experts on this," Sawyer said. "If you want to charge someone with racism or making a racial slur, the person should at least have the intent of making a slur. It's not necessarily clear that Luis Suarez had that intent."

The association said Wednesday that it was charging Suarez, but did not provide details about what transpired.

"It is alleged that Suarez used abusive and/or insulting words and/or behavior towards Manchester United's Patrice Evra contrary to FA rules," the association said in a statement.

"It is further alleged that this included a reference to the ethnic origin and/or color and/or race of Patrice Evra," the statement said.

Liverpool said in a statement that the club expects Suarez to request a personal hearing on the issue and "remains determined to clear his name of the allegation made against him by Patrice Evra."

In a post on his Facebook page shortly after the October match, Suarez said the accusations of racism upset him.

"I can only say that I have always respected and respect everybody," he said. "We are all the same. I go to the field with the maximum (enthusiasm) of a little child who enjoys what he does, not to create conflicts."

Evra, in an interview with France's Canal Plus, said evidence would support his claim.

"There are cameras. You can see him say a certain word to me at least 10 times. There is no place for that in 2011," he said.

Issues of racism have repeatedly surged on the soccer field in recent years, despite efforts to combat it.

Chelsea and England captain John Terry is at the center of a investigation by London's Metropolitan Police and the English Football Association after allegedly making racist remarks to Queens Park Rangers defender Anton Ferdinand during an October game.

Former Brazil defender Robert Carlos walked off the field during a Russian league match in June after a banana was thrown at him from the stands, while the Malaysian Football Association was forced to apologize to Chelsea in July when their Israeli midfielder Yossi Benayoun was subject to racial slurs during a pre-season encounter.

But FIFA president Sepp Blatter told CNN this week that he believes there is no on-field racism in the sport.

"Maybe one of the players towards the other, he has a word or a gesture which is not the correct one. But also, the one who is affected by that, he should say, 'It's a game.' We are in a game. At the end of the game, we shake hands, this can happen, because we have worked so hard against racism and discrimination," he said.

Blatter's comments provoked an immediate response from some players, including Manchester United's Rio Ferdinand, Anton's brother.

"Your comments on racism are so condescending (it's) almost laughable. If fans shout racist chants but shake our hands is that ok?" he wrote in a Twitter post.

Blatter later took to Twitter to explain his comments, posting: "Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, things are said and done on the field of play which are wrong. This does not mean that, in general, there is racism on the field of play. Football unites people more than it divides them."

Devil-Is-Red wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:The race cards being played all around are fraking ridiculous.

The extent of both Suarez and Terry's "crimes" is calling Evra and Anton "black" (Suarez in Spanish). Should they call them white, blue, or orange not to be racist.

Seriously, they did not use a racially discriminatory remark but rather a fraking description. If you are fraking, white, brown, black, blue, orange, red, yellow, or green expect people to call you such. Just as Terry and other white players were called "white trash" several times before.

There is NO racial connection between using the descriptive word "black" in directing an insult at a black player. If he feels offended because he is black, he has serious identity issues.

Here is a an example of a racially loaded insults: (Forgive me mods)
You *bleep* cheap Jew.
You *bleep* terrorist Arab.
You sister fraking inbred White trash.

Here is an example of insults using descriptive language:
You Jew bastard.
You Arab asshole.
You black c*nt.

The difference between the two is that the first uses stereotypes to insult, while the second just uses a description and insults for the sake of insulting.

U for real? They can so all those things without having to use "black" "arab" and "jew". It is racism to bring up someone's ethnicity as a means to insult.

Maybe where your from that is not deemed as racist or not offensive, but if someone was to call me an Arab ____ best believe they are gonna get a smack in their mouth.

The Franchise wrote:Maybe in different places, racism is seen slightly different to different people. I really dont know.

For me, its about intent as much as the words.

If someone says you black _____, they are using the word "black" as a negative connotation. It doesnt matter if it is factually correct that I am black, its the context or intent that it is being said.

And as Zeal said, you cant really tell someone if they should be offended or not. It depends on the intent of the words, the context in which its said and how the personal percieves it.

My 2 cents on it.

In terms of relation to football, its always going to be difficult when you can hear what is being said and then on top of that the different intentions due to different cultures.

Lord Spencer wrote:

Devil-Is-Red wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:The race cards being played all around are fraking ridiculous.

The extent of both Suarez and Terry's "crimes" is calling Evra and Anton "black" (Suarez in Spanish). Should they call them white, blue, or orange not to be racist.

Seriously, they did not use a racially discriminatory remark but rather a fraking description. If you are fraking, white, brown, black, blue, orange, red, yellow, or green expect people to call you such. Just as Terry and other white players were called "white trash" several times before.

There is NO racial connection between using the descriptive word "black" in directing an insult at a black player. If he feels offended because he is black, he has serious identity issues.

Here is a an example of a racially loaded insults: (Forgive me mods)
You *bleep* cheap Jew.
You *bleep* terrorist Arab.
You sister fraking inbred White trash.

Here is an example of insults using descriptive language:
You Jew bastard.
You Arab asshole.
You black c*nt.

The difference between the two is that the first uses stereotypes to insult, while the second just uses a description and insults for the sake of insulting.

U for real? They can so all those things without having to use "black" "arab" and "jew". It is racism to bring up someone's ethnicity as a means to insult.

Maybe where your from that is not deemed as racist or not offensive, but if someone was to call me an Arab ____ best believe they are gonna get a smack in their mouth.

So you are ashamed of being Arab that you feel insulted when someone calls you an Arab. Excuse me, but that is pathetic, because I believe you are not ashamed of being an Arab (and you should not be).

Devil-Is-Red wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:

Devil-Is-Red wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:The race cards being played all around are fraking ridiculous.

The extent of both Suarez and Terry's "crimes" is calling Evra and Anton "black" (Suarez in Spanish). Should they call them white, blue, or orange not to be racist.

Seriously, they did not use a racially discriminatory remark but rather a fraking description. If you are fraking, white, brown, black, blue, orange, red, yellow, or green expect people to call you such. Just as Terry and other white players were called "white trash" several times before.

There is NO racial connection between using the descriptive word "black" in directing an insult at a black player. If he feels offended because he is black, he has serious identity issues.

Here is a an example of a racially loaded insults: (Forgive me mods)
You *bleep* cheap Jew.
You *bleep* terrorist Arab.
You sister fraking inbred White trash.

Here is an example of insults using descriptive language:
You Jew bastard.
You Arab asshole.
You black c*nt.

The difference between the two is that the first uses stereotypes to insult, while the second just uses a description and insults for the sake of insulting.

U for real? They can so all those things without having to use "black" "arab" and "jew". It is racism to bring up someone's ethnicity as a means to insult.

Maybe where your from that is not deemed as racist or not offensive, but if someone was to call me an Arab ____ best believe they are gonna get a smack in their mouth.

So you are ashamed of being Arab that you feel insulted when someone calls you an Arab. Excuse me, but that is pathetic, because I believe you are not ashamed of being an Arab (and you should not be).

I am proud of who I am, but if someone uses my ethnicity or colour as an insult towards me I would be deeply offended.

Lord Spencer wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Maybe in different places, racism is seen slightly different to different people. I really dont know.

For me, its about intent as much as the words.

If someone says you black _____, they are using the word "black" as a negative connotation. It doesnt matter if it is factually correct that I am black, its the context or intent that it is being said.

And as Zeal said, you cant really tell someone if they should be offended or not. It depends on the intent of the words, the context in which its said and how the personal percieves it.

My 2 cents on it.

In terms of relation to football, its always going to be difficult when you can hear what is being said and then on top of that the different intentions due to different cultures.

I agree about the context and your general idea,, however I don't agree with your definition of racism.

Racism is not about being offended by insults or monkey chants, it is a deeper problem. Racism is the degradation of a race by the mainstream media/education/culture. It is the reason behind the monkey chants and not the chants themselves, by focusing on the surface, people just really cut away time and effort that should be focused on the cause.

Terry is not the fraking cause, and his insult was only labeld "racist" because it contained the word "black". Any study of language would show that in the undereducated classes most English footballers hail from, using words like "black", "Irish", "Scot","Scouse" is normal and second nature to all of them. No one will will go an say Terry is Racist because he said to someone you "Welsh" C*unt. Which is frankly just double stranded and the FA crusading against the face of racism without actually fighting the actual cause.