How to integrate Kaka into the lineup?

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Post by Babun on Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:44 pm

While the hatred towards Di Maria increases day by day the way his effectiveness decreases game by game, Kaka seems to have regained some of his key attributes.I'm not knee jerking because he played well third game in the row. People might say he didn't do anything of notice in the last two games previous to yesterdays one but he is expected to be a playmaker he isn't. He is a goal scoring SS who runs at defenders to create havoc, he'll never be a creative force like Ozil. Yesterday, we played a soft midfield, against tougher teams we wouldn't be able to field the 4-3-3, with Alonso-Kaka-Ozil in the mid.

----------Alonso--------

------Ozil----------------
---------------Kaka------


I wouldn't play Kaka on the wing like many suggest. He doesn't have the workrate of a winger to backtrack like Di Maria. As low as Ozil's stamina may seem, he runs more than Kaka per game. Kaka isn't a ueber creative force from all over the field like Ozil. It's better to play Kaka in attack and let Ozil orchestrate the happenings with Alonso and co. The formation for it to not let us get exposed and conserve Ozil's stamina would be diamond in this shape until Sahin is fit:

-----------Ramos-----Pepe-------------
Arbeloa----------------------------------
-----------------Xabi---------Marcelo---
-----------------------Khedira-----------
---------Ozil-----------------------------
-------------------Kaka------------------
-------Benz-------------------CR7-------

Ozil and Benz will attack from the right. They don't need an overlapping fullback to be effective together thus leaving Arbeloa in defence which would make the right side very solid. Also, not playing Ozil as pure right winger would shorten his running distance up and down= more stamina. CR7, Marcelo and Khedira will attack from the left side. Marcelo is needed to carry the ball, Khedira needed to cover for both CR7 and Marcelo. We need one attacker more from the left to allow CR7 to crash the box (Khedira). Kaka should be the one to attack throw the middle.
The formation solves a lot of other problems as well. First, all 4 guys in the middle have high passing accuracy. Second, Khedira and Xabi could find Ozil a lot easier in diamond than in 4-2-3-1 where he is surrounded by 2 markers all the time. Furthermore, they'll have the option of passing to Kaka at the same time. The other superb thing about the diamond is that Kaka and Benz could drop into midfield alltogether when not attacking ensuring total dominance. Another positive aspect, we struggle to bring out the ball out of defence to upper midfield, having Xabi, Khedira and Ozil as pickups would ease the process (Marcelo shouldn't be the only way).Something that we missed a lot were ball carrier type of midfielders. Ozil and Kaka do it,Khedira to lesser extent, Xabi not at all but that's the reason I placed him so deep. The buildup will be a lot more fluid.

Now to downsides Very Happy
1. Di Maria's workrate will be missed. I know you hate him by now but he does his job.
2. We don't have enough rotation mids in case of injuries. Granero and Lass? eco smile
3. Özil is the big concern with or without this formation. We don't seem to be able to score without him. How to rest him? If we play him and his 'backup' at the same time (Kaka isn't really an AM) chances they'd burnt out at the same time would be higher.

Discuss! :lol!:

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Post by EarlyPrototype on Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:44 pm

2 words:

Drop Di Maria
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Post by EarlyPrototype on Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:48 pm

If we still had Canales our depth issue wouldn't be so bad.

I prefer to use second formation you listed Khedira is needed more than Kaka tbh.
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Post by hrealmadrid on Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:53 pm

I agree with most of what you say except I watched Kaka a lot during his Milan days and he would create a lot, and he's still quite good at it. But not on par (or even close) with Özil and never will be.

I don't like when Özil gets stuck in a CM role as his talents are wasted. When there is a midfielder in the middle in front of him this seems to happen, hence his limited effectiveness the past couple games before yesterday.

The idea of the diamond is interesting and if implemented correctly could be very advantageous. Good post.
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Post by Adit on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:00 pm

Ozil as part of a 3 men mid is a disaster defensively and his style wise.This is a glorified 4-3-1-2,a formation that always make extra pressure on full backs.Flanks will be blank as hell and opposition players will run riot throw our flanks.

How good is ozil,kaka,benz at tracking back? come on they are below average as far as im concerned.All teams will eat arbeloa alive in this formation.Marcelo is little bit covered by khedira but still im not sure how much reliable is this game plan.

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Post by Zealous on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:03 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again I will always choose a player who can hold up and pass the ball well over a player who is good at tackling but can't pass for sh*t.

Sahin will help a lot when he comes back. (Also throw Granero/Alex a bone if we are prepared to start Lass we may as well play them.)

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Post by Babun on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:05 pm

Adit, you underestimate the power of attack Very Happy If you keep attacking them you don't need to track back all the time with all the passing options Very Happy It's the reason our 2 DM formation didn't work. Keep the opponent busy instead of running behind their shadows all the time Very Happy

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Post by Babun on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:06 pm

@Zealous wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again I will always choose a player who can hold up and pass the ball well over a player who is good at tackling but can't pass for sh*t.

Sahin will help a lot when he comes back. (Also throw Granero/Alex a bone if we are prepared to start Lass we may as well play them.)
This! He said what I wanted to say Very Happy Kaka and Ozil cannot only hold up but they can carry the ball and pass precisely Very Happy


Last edited by babun1024 on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Onyx on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:10 pm

Drop Di Maria.

----------Khedira
---Ozil-------------Sahin
-----------Kaka



Or:

---------------Khedira
-------Sahin------------Alonso
----------------Ozil

Or:

----------------Alonso
--------Ozil--------------Sahin
-----------------Kaka

Or:


----------------Alonso
--------Ozil--------------Sahin


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Post by Adit on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:10 pm

babun1024 wrote:Adit, you underestimate the power of attack Very Happy If you keep attacking them you don't need to track back all the time with all the passing options Very Happy It's the reason our 2 DM formation didn't work. Keep the opponent busy instead of running behind their shadows all the time Very Happy
Against weak opponents and park the bus teams ,this will work but as a solid game plan,4-3-1-2 is questionable. Very Happy


eco smile

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Post by Onyx on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:17 pm

Barca beat Atletico 4-0 with 3 at the back. :coffee:
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Post by Adit on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:19 pm

mtfootball wrote:Barca beat Atletico 4-0 with 3 at the back. :coffee:
and even messi tracks back better than ozil and kaka combined. :coffee:

Forget barca,they plays total football and they got suited players.

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Post by Zealous on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:31 pm

We could beat Atletico with our youth team LOL

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Post by guest7 on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:34 pm

Sporting Gijon has given us more trouble than Atletico Madrid
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Post by Le Samourai on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:44 pm

Di Maria.................. I support dropping him at the moment but honestly............
I kinda refuse to believe that he all of a sudden has just become utter crap.

Last season there were points where I was thinking , he is the ideal player , long term on the wing. Fantastic work rate and great talent.So I dont think that it's time to give up on him just yet.

As for your suggestion, I dont see it. You're basically sticking Ozil in a cm role in order to give Kaka , who has proven nothing in 2 years a RM , the starting CAM spot. Personally I think that's ridiculous.Ozil has to be CAM and since Kaka can't really play CM the only spot I see for him is on the wings or ss. More importantly he can be backup for Ozil.

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Post by Babun on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:01 pm

Scaredy cats Very Happy

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Post by Guest on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:16 pm

I agree with Babun. Attacking with skill and passing as opposed to just direct speed (we mostly counter attack these days) is a form of defense. Teams cannot pressure players like Ozil, Kaka, Benz, Khedira, etc. like they do with Lass, Coentrao, Di Maria. The reason is simple: They will make an accurate short pass, link up with each other, and get past you in a heartbeat. Just by their presence on the field, you force a defense to give the midfield space.

As a defender, i loved the showy dribble guys and specialists. They may have made me look bad once in a while... but the number of things i had to worry about were small for each player and i could manage a lot better. The guys that had quick passing and vision were the toughest because i had a lot more to think about and, thus, was more on my heels.

Why do you think teams have had so much success defending us although, on paper, we had far superior talent? Answer is simple: our midfield was made up of one-dimensional players. Much, much easier to defend.

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Post by Adit on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:22 pm

Man i rewatched yesterdays game


Di maria's passing :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

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Post by Adit on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:24 pm

It cant be get worse than that .Seriously,we cant win a big game with him honestly.Teams are now filling our left flank with players and leaving right wing free.

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Post by Babun on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:37 pm

@Adit wrote:It cant be get worse than that .Seriously,we cant win a big game with him honestly.Teams are now filling our left flank with players and leaving right wing free.
That's why I said, shift Ozil and Benz to the right and leave the left flank for CR7, Marcelo and Khedira otherwise we won't create enough gaps for through balls or runs Very Happy
They need things to worry about from both sides and a sneaking bastard in the middle (Kaka) Very Happy I already imagine the gaps and how the park the bus teams are pissing in their pants out of fear not knowing from where the danger comes from Very Happy


Last edited by babun1024 on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:50 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by huntsman on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:42 pm

It should actually be (at least for the moment) how we integrate Madrid to play around Kaka.

Ozil is doing real good but i expect more hiccups from him in the near future. He will need all the help we can give him.
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Post by Babun on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:43 pm

@sportsczy wrote:I agree with Babun. Attacking with skill and passing as opposed to just direct speed (we mostly counter attack these days) is a form of defense. Teams cannot pressure players like Ozil, Kaka, Benz, Khedira, etc. like they do with Lass, Coentrao, Di Maria. The reason is simple: They will make an accurate short pass, link up with each other, and get past you in a heartbeat. Just by their presence on the field, you force a defense to give the midfield space.

As a defender, i loved the showy dribble guys and specialists. They may have made me look bad once in a while... but the number of things i had to worry about were small for each player and i could manage a lot better. The guys that had quick passing and vision were the toughest because i had a lot more to think about and, thus, was more on my heels.

Why do you think teams have had so much success defending us although, on paper, we had far superior talent? Answer is simple: our midfield was made up of one-dimensional players. Much, much easier to defend.
This, you need 2 guys to mark Ozil and Kaka. Khedira is a spartan, he is too physical to be marked. Benz is like Ozil, too much ball control if he turns around and passes then the opposite team is in trouble. We won't have the pressure on midfield we have at the moment because the other team will simply sit back with most of their man. If not, you saw the counters yesterday Very Happy Ozil->Kaka->Cr7 combos are deadly. Also, I didn't read anywhere but CR7 played exceptionally well yesterday. He made all the correct runs, his passing was cleaner etc. I'm liking him more and more as long he doesn't go into selfish mode Very Happy

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Post by Ganso on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:48 pm

I think it is possible for Kaka to play less centralized,his runs are normally made from the flanks,he only does passing in the middle.

------Benz------
CR---Ozil---Kaka
--Xabi----Sahin-
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Post by Babun on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:52 pm

@Ganso wrote:I think it is possible for Kaka to play less centralized,his runs are normally made from the flanks,he only does passing in the middle.

------Benz------
CR---Ozil---Kaka
--Xabi----Sahin-
I don't like his workrate on the wing role Very Happy He'd be used up after like 50 minutes in 4-2-3-1 because of pressing Very Happy

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Post by Guest on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:53 pm

I wouldn't put him in the starting lineup, leave him as a backup to Ozil, we need to have that second option available in case of injury/rotation/whatever. Kaka has had a couple of good performances but he is still terribly inconsistent. See the Levante game and I still waiting to see him do it against defenders worth a grain of salt.

Just my thoughts.

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