dnmac4 wrote:

djoe26 wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:
I wouldn't take DDR or Cambiasso over Toure but at least I could see where your coming from. I Mean Song isn't on there level either. And yes your right you don't have rational clear thinking fans at Arsenal, I agree 100%.

So we are not clear thinking fans because we didnt agree on what you say?

That pretty much sums it up. If you think Song is better then Toure your not being rational or clear thinking, just a fanboy. I don't know how you could even compare the two considering Yaya won the FA cup by himself last year and just has had a much better career and is a much better player. I don't know what the argument for Song would actually be other then, "I like Arsenal."

Your sir are awesome, try not to get banned though I enjoy your posts

dnmac4 wrote:

djoe26 wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:
I wouldn't take DDR or Cambiasso over Toure but at least I could see where your coming from. I Mean Song isn't on there level either. And yes your right you don't have rational clear thinking fans at Arsenal, I agree 100%.

So we are not clear thinking fans because we didnt agree on what you say?

That pretty much sums it up. If you think Song is better then Toure your not being rational or clear thinking, just a fanboy. I don't know how you could even compare the two considering Yaya won the FA cup by himself last year and just has had a much better career and is a much better player. I don't know what the argument for Song would actually be other then, "I like Arsenal."

Seriously?
I agree that Yaya had better career than Song but that doesnt make Song the worst defensive midfielder in history or does it? I dont even know why we are comparing Yaya with Song. Song hasnt acheived anything yet but he has been great for arsenal and that you would know if you did watch arsenal matches.

djoe26 wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

djoe26 wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:
I wouldn't take DDR or Cambiasso over Toure but at least I could see where your coming from. I Mean Song isn't on there level either. And yes your right you don't have rational clear thinking fans at Arsenal, I agree 100%.

So we are not clear thinking fans because we didnt agree on what you say?

That pretty much sums it up. If you think Song is better then Toure your not being rational or clear thinking, just a fanboy. I don't know how you could even compare the two considering Yaya won the FA cup by himself last year and just has had a much better career and is a much better player. I don't know what the argument for Song would actually be other then, "I like Arsenal."

Seriously?
I agree that Yaya had better career than Song but that doesnt make Song the worst defensive midfielder in history or does it? I dont even know why we are comparing Yaya with Song. Song hasnt acheived anything yet but he has been great for arsenal and that you would know if you did watch arsenal matches.

Yes, seriously. Yaya scored the winning goal against Man U in the Semi Finals and the only goal in the finals. With all the attacking talent on that team he came through in the biggest games when others didn't.

I never said anything about Song's play for Arsenal or his place in history. The thread which was made by someone else was saying how bad Song was, and I simply reminded everyone that a ton of Arsenal fans said he's better then Yaya in a past thread that got really heated.

It switched to Yaya vs Song because YOUR mod is still saying Song is better. What he does for Arsenal is fine and dandy but that doesn't make him better then Yaya.

RVP is great for Arsenal but he isn't a top 3 striker. So it really doesn't matter.

And yes I watch Arsenal, Song's a good player but he's not a top 5 DM. If your fans think so then it's blind fanboy behavior.

And this isn't a shot at you or maybe it is, but I'm really tired of people on here when losing arguments or just saying really loose statements saying "you must not watch him/the team play." I mean Arsenal is on every weekend in the states it's hard not to watch them. I watch every football game thats on TV so just because I'm telling the truth that Yaya is on another level then Song doesn't mean I don't watch the game.

The only statement in this thread that makes me think someone doesn't watch football is your mod saying he'd rather have Song over Yaya as I think Yaya is much better and can fix a lot of your teams problems.

dnmac4 wrote:

It switched to Yaya vs Song because YOUR mod is still saying Song is better. What he does for Arsenal is fine and dandy but that doesn't make him better then Yaya.

RVP is great for Arsenal but he isn't a top 3 striker. So it really doesn't matter.

And yes I watch Arsenal, Song's a good player but he's not a top 5 DM. If your fans think so then it's blind fanboy behavior.

And this isn't a shot at you or maybe it is, but I'm really tired of people on here when losing arguments or just saying really loose statements saying "you must not watch him/the team play." I mean Arsenal is on every weekend in the states it's hard not to watch them. I watch every football game thats on TV so just because I'm telling the truth that Yaya is on another level then Song doesn't mean I don't watch the game.

The only statement in this thread that makes me think someone doesn't watch football is your mod saying he'd rather have Song over Yaya as I think Yaya is much better and can fix a lot of your teams problems.

First of all, im not an Arsenal mod.

Second, I have not said anywhere that Song is better then Yaya toure. What i did say was that i will take Song over yaya. Don't twist my words please and this isn't the first time you failed to understand a simple sentence

Finally, i highly doubt you watch anything other then Man city or Barcelona matches. It is always useless debating anything with you as somehow every player is worse then a player from man city in your opinion lol

Simply put, being a better player is not a mathematical equation. You can't put a rating on players like PES. There tons of elements you need to take into account.

First, the player himself:
1- Position.
2- His suitability for that position.
3- Skills.
4- Fitness record.
5- Personality.
6- Physical attributes.
7- Mind.

The team he is playing for:
1- The teams strength.
2- His usefulness for the team.
3- The team tactics.
4- Team chemistry.
5- Team style.

The environment:
1- Weather.
2- Fans.
3- Club pressure.

And these are just a taste of the hundreds of criteria that affect a players ability. To say that Song is better than Yaya for Arsenal is a completely valid opinion (valid meaning the opinion to be reasonable; validity as philosophical term means when an opinion can be true). To say that Song is better than Yaya as a DM is also completely valid. There are no proofs anyone can bring to justify their claim. Football experts are divided on the issue, and since you don't have an overwhelming advantage for Yaya, the opinion is Valid.

yaya is twice the player song is. you cannot be serious that you would pick song infront of yaya toure.

And whoosh is the sound as my post completely flies past the troll.

Lord Spencer wrote:Simply put, being a better player is not a mathematical equation. You can't put a rating on players like PES. There tons of elements you need to take into account.

First, the player himself:
1- Position.
2- His suitability for that position.
3- Skills.
4- Fitness record.
5- Personality.
6- Physical attributes.
7- Mind.

The team he is playing for:
1- The teams strength.
2- His usefulness for the team.
3- The team tactics.
4- Team chemistry.
5- Team style.

The environment:
1- Weather.
2- Fans.
3- Club pressure.

And these are just a taste of the hundreds of criteria that affect a players ability. To say that Song is better than Yaya for Arsenal is a completely valid opinion (valid meaning the opinion to be reasonable; validity as philosophical term means when an opinion can be true). To say that Song is better than Yaya as a DM is also completely valid. There are no proofs anyone can bring to justify their claim. Football experts are divided on the issue, and since you don't have an overwhelming advantage for Yaya, the opinion is Valid.

Good to see there are posters like you around

Song has always been a hot and cold player amongst fans. Some fans really like, some don't.

Incidentally, one fan's opinion does not represent the entirety of the fanbase.

Anyway, I think a lot of Song's own failings are because of the manager, and not because of him. This tendancy to go forward and support the attack is something that is shared between just about every so-called DM that has played for Arsenal since Gilberto left.

Whether we delibrately buy players with this trait or if the manager is instructing them to do so has never really been confirmed either way.

It'd certainly be something Wenger would do.

When Song actually plays a more disciplined game, he's pretty good. Not world class, by any means. I think he does lack pace and can be lazy in his positioning and tackling sometimes, but otherwise he's usually pretty solid.

Even in the Blackburn game he wasn't really that bad. Neither was Ramsey. Both had decent matches, albeit slightly indifferent second halves. But then, nobody covered themselves in glory in the second half.

what i dont understand is that why everone has to go wild just because one person said that he would take song over yaya... its not a big deal, maybe he believes song has a lot of potential OR MAYBE JUST MAYBE, he believes song would fit in arsenals system more then yaya. I swear some of you really need to go have a kit kat(take a break).

djoe26 wrote:For those who is blaming Song and Ramsey for conceding goals havnt watched the game so please stop making useless threads. Are you blaming Song for the own goal? And Ramsey did not play Wilsheres role but he played in cesc role today.

Our problem is in effing defense and i dont blame any player for that but i blame the defending system.

I wouldnt blame them for the goals, but they both struggled in the second half for that period of time that blackburn were dominating us.

Iceman wrote:You are all idiots.

look kid

Your an arsenal supporter... DON'T TALK

RuthlesGangstaDef:villin wrote:

Iceman wrote:You are all idiots.

look kid

Your an arsenal supporter... DON'T TALK

LOL shows how big of a moron you are, Iceman is one of the most respected and knowledgable posters on the forum, and i love you attempt at cheapshotting arsenal considering your a gloryhunting chelsea fan.

*Chelsea fan*

*Automatic gloryhunter*

toure and song are 2 of the most overrated players around today

i would seriously choose joey barton over the pair of them

RealGunner wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

It switched to Yaya vs Song because YOUR mod is still saying Song is better. What he does for Arsenal is fine and dandy but that doesn't make him better then Yaya.

RVP is great for Arsenal but he isn't a top 3 striker. So it really doesn't matter.

And yes I watch Arsenal, Song's a good player but he's not a top 5 DM. If your fans think so then it's blind fanboy behavior.

And this isn't a shot at you or maybe it is, but I'm really tired of people on here when losing arguments or just saying really loose statements saying "you must not watch him/the team play." I mean Arsenal is on every weekend in the states it's hard not to watch them. I watch every football game thats on TV so just because I'm telling the truth that Yaya is on another level then Song doesn't mean I don't watch the game.

The only statement in this thread that makes me think someone doesn't watch football is your mod saying he'd rather have Song over Yaya as I think Yaya is much better and can fix a lot of your teams problems.

First of all, im not an Arsenal mod.

Second, I have not said anywhere that Song is better then Yaya toure. What i did say was that i will take Song over yaya. Don't twist my words please and this isn't the first time you failed to understand a simple sentence

Finally, i highly doubt you watch anything other then Man city or Barcelona matches. It is always useless debating anything with you as somehow every player is worse then a player from man city in your opinion lol

Got it. So you don't think Song is better then Yaya but you want Song over him because why? Oh I know, your a blind fanboy. It's pretty obvious.

And it's useless debating me because you lose. I mean does anyone even know what you mean? You say I'd still take Song over Yaya and then the next post is I never said Song is better then Yaya. What the hell are you talking about??? You make no sense. You're just being a fanboy.

Lord Spencer wrote:Simply put, being a better player is not a mathematical equation. You can't put a rating on players like PES. There tons of elements you need to take into account.

First, the player himself:
1- Position.
2- His suitability for that position.
3- Skills.
4- Fitness record.
5- Personality.
6- Physical attributes.
7- Mind.

The team he is playing for:
1- The teams strength.
2- His usefulness for the team.
3- The team tactics.
4- Team chemistry.
5- Team style.

The environment:
1- Weather.
2- Fans.
3- Club pressure.

And these are just a taste of the hundreds of criteria that affect a players ability. To say that Song is better than Yaya for Arsenal is a completely valid opinion (valid meaning the opinion to be reasonable; validity as philosophical term means when an opinion can be true). To say that Song is better than Yaya as a DM is also completely valid. There are no proofs anyone can bring to justify their claim. Football experts are divided on the issue, and since you don't have an overwhelming advantage for Yaya, the opinion is Valid.

OK, so take all of those factors you can come up with and Yaya ranks better in more of them because he is a better player. IT's really not that hard. You know when it's trophy time and Arsenal and Song are losing to a relegation team in the Carling Cup and Yaya is dragging City past United to win the FA cup. That's when a players true colors come out and the cream rises to the top.

I mean your post would make some sense if we were comparing Yaya and De Rossi or Essien or someone like that but Song??? Give me a break, the guy has never accomplished anything, he's not a leader and he is a good player but no where near these other players.

You can list a whole bunch of aspects but the bottom line is Yaya is better unless you're a blind Arsenal fan probably the same type of fan who were saying Arsenal's keeper was the second best in the PL and then he shipped 8 to United.

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:Simply put, being a better player is not a mathematical equation. You can't put a rating on players like PES. There tons of elements you need to take into account.

First, the player himself:
1- Position.
2- His suitability for that position.
3- Skills.
4- Fitness record.
5- Personality.
6- Physical attributes.
7- Mind.

The team he is playing for:
1- The teams strength.
2- His usefulness for the team.
3- The team tactics.
4- Team chemistry.
5- Team style.

The environment:
1- Weather.
2- Fans.
3- Club pressure.

And these are just a taste of the hundreds of criteria that affect a players ability. To say that Song is better than Yaya for Arsenal is a completely valid opinion (valid meaning the opinion to be reasonable; validity as philosophical term means when an opinion can be true). To say that Song is better than Yaya as a DM is also completely valid. There are no proofs anyone can bring to justify their claim. Football experts are divided on the issue, and since you don't have an overwhelming advantage for Yaya, the opinion is Valid.

OK, so take all of those factors you can come up with and Yaya ranks better in more of them because he is a better player. IT's really not that hard. You know when it's trophy time and Arsenal and Song are losing to a relegation team in the Carling Cup and Yaya is dragging City past United to win the FA cup. That's when a players true colors come out and the cream rises to the top.

I mean your post would make some sense if we were comparing Yaya and De Rossi or Essien or someone like that but Song??? Give me a break, the guy has never accomplished anything, he's not a leader and he is a good player but no where near these other players.

You can list a whole bunch of aspects but the bottom line is Yaya is better unless you're a blind Arsenal fan probably the same type of fan who were saying Arsenal's keeper was the second best in the PL and then he shipped 8 to United.

From my post you would understand how some players would work in some systems better than others, hence RG's preference for Song over Yaya. I mentioned those factors and the existence of many others to argue the futility of comparing two players, since there is no mathematical equation that does so. Football is a subjective sport (thank God) and while opinions on the ability of the players is governed by the factors above and many others, it is a sub conscious equation that is not free of bias. Bottom line is, you can't directly say that player A is better than player B i all systems and with all coaches and at all times.

De Rossi never accomplished anything more significant than a Copa Italia at a senior level. As his WC medal is one who took while being absent from most of the tournament. Hell, there are many players who won very little and yet are considered great. In the modern game there is Gerrard, who only has a CL (a big trophy but the numbers stand) to his name. Also there was Batigol who only won one Serie A.

Again, I argued the fact that arguing Song is better than Yaya is a valid argument however you define validity. I am not arguing that Song is better, but that an opinion that Song is better is not a ridiculous opinion. I myself don't rate both of them, and actually share the opinion of Guardiola about Busquets (who I rate, but not much). I can't see where the fact that someone who says Song is better than Yaya makes that persons judgment to be faulty.

Lord Spencer wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:Simply put, being a better player is not a mathematical equation. You can't put a rating on players like PES. There tons of elements you need to take into account.

First, the player himself:
1- Position.
2- His suitability for that position.
3- Skills.
4- Fitness record.
5- Personality.
6- Physical attributes.
7- Mind.

The team he is playing for:
1- The teams strength.
2- His usefulness for the team.
3- The team tactics.
4- Team chemistry.
5- Team style.

The environment:
1- Weather.
2- Fans.
3- Club pressure.

And these are just a taste of the hundreds of criteria that affect a players ability. To say that Song is better than Yaya for Arsenal is a completely valid opinion (valid meaning the opinion to be reasonable; validity as philosophical term means when an opinion can be true). To say that Song is better than Yaya as a DM is also completely valid. There are no proofs anyone can bring to justify their claim. Football experts are divided on the issue, and since you don't have an overwhelming advantage for Yaya, the opinion is Valid.

OK, so take all of those factors you can come up with and Yaya ranks better in more of them because he is a better player. IT's really not that hard. You know when it's trophy time and Arsenal and Song are losing to a relegation team in the Carling Cup and Yaya is dragging City past United to win the FA cup. That's when a players true colors come out and the cream rises to the top.

I mean your post would make some sense if we were comparing Yaya and De Rossi or Essien or someone like that but Song??? Give me a break, the guy has never accomplished anything, he's not a leader and he is a good player but no where near these other players.

You can list a whole bunch of aspects but the bottom line is Yaya is better unless you're a blind Arsenal fan probably the same type of fan who were saying Arsenal's keeper was the second best in the PL and then he shipped 8 to United.

From my post you would understand how some players would work in some systems better than others, hence RG's preference for Song over Yaya. I mentioned those factors and the existence of many others to argue the futility of comparing two players, since there is no mathematical equation that does so. Football is a subjective sport (thank God) and while opinions on the ability of the players is governed by the factors above and many others, it is a sub conscious equation that is not free of bias. Bottom line is, you can't directly say that player A is better than player B i all systems and with all coaches and at all times.

De Rossi never accomplished anything more significant than a Copa Italia at a senior level. As his WC medal is one who took while being absent from most of the tournament. Hell, there are many players who won very little and yet are considered great. In the modern game there is Gerrard, who only has a CL (a big trophy but the numbers stand) to his name. Also there was Batigol who only won one Serie A.

Again, I argued the fact that arguing Song is better than Yaya is a valid argument however you define validity. I am not arguing that Song is better, but that an opinion that Song is better is not a ridiculous opinion. I myself don't rate both of them, and actually share the opinion of Guardiola about Busquets (who I rate, but not much). I can't see where the fact that someone who says Song is better than Yaya makes that persons judgment to be faulty.

Barcelona and Arsenal's systems are very similar so it's not a reach at all to sat Yaya would be very good in Arsenal's system. Barca expected Yaya to be technical, physical, have a good passing rate, be a rock in the center of the field, good going forward, provide killer passes in the final third and be good in the air on set pieces because BArca's a bunch of midget's (which Arsenal could also use), and protect a high backline. HE did all of them very well so it is a very easy jump to say he would be great in Arsenal's system. He jumped to the PL and in his first year looked like he'd been playing there his whole life. HE is just a better player, there really is no argument. IT's not a knock on Song as he's a fine player but Yaya is just better it's obvious. IT's not like one plays for Stoke and the other plays for Arsenal the systems are similar.

And Guardiola did not want to get rid of Yaya. Him and Busquets were going to split minutes and Yaya didn't want to do that. Pep even said it's one of the moves he regrets the most in selling Yaya as he wanted to keep him and loves him as a player.

I know there are players who don't win anything and are really good, but Song has been in games with trophies on the line and hasn't played as well as Yaya. HE steps up in big games it's a factor in why he's better. I mean he played in the back 4 for the first time in the CL final and bossed United, and like I said dragged City to the FA cup and scored in the final two games one against the second best team in the world.

It's just not close at all. You could ask any scout, or level headed fan. Even the guy I'm arguing with wont say Song is better and neither will you so what are we really talking about?

cyberman wrote:toure and song are 2 of the most overrated players around today

i would seriously choose joey barton over the pair of them

now there's a statement! lol

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:Simply put, being a better player is not a mathematical equation. You can't put a rating on players like PES. There tons of elements you need to take into account.

First, the player himself:
1- Position.
2- His suitability for that position.
3- Skills.
4- Fitness record.
5- Personality.
6- Physical attributes.
7- Mind.

The team he is playing for:
1- The teams strength.
2- His usefulness for the team.
3- The team tactics.
4- Team chemistry.
5- Team style.

The environment:
1- Weather.
2- Fans.
3- Club pressure.

And these are just a taste of the hundreds of criteria that affect a players ability. To say that Song is better than Yaya for Arsenal is a completely valid opinion (valid meaning the opinion to be reasonable; validity as philosophical term means when an opinion can be true). To say that Song is better than Yaya as a DM is also completely valid. There are no proofs anyone can bring to justify their claim. Football experts are divided on the issue, and since you don't have an overwhelming advantage for Yaya, the opinion is Valid.

OK, so take all of those factors you can come up with and Yaya ranks better in more of them because he is a better player. IT's really not that hard. You know when it's trophy time and Arsenal and Song are losing to a relegation team in the Carling Cup and Yaya is dragging City past United to win the FA cup. That's when a players true colors come out and the cream rises to the top.

I mean your post would make some sense if we were comparing Yaya and De Rossi or Essien or someone like that but Song??? Give me a break, the guy has never accomplished anything, he's not a leader and he is a good player but no where near these other players.

You can list a whole bunch of aspects but the bottom line is Yaya is better unless you're a blind Arsenal fan probably the same type of fan who were saying Arsenal's keeper was the second best in the PL and then he shipped 8 to United.

From my post you would understand how some players would work in some systems better than others, hence RG's preference for Song over Yaya. I mentioned those factors and the existence of many others to argue the futility of comparing two players, since there is no mathematical equation that does so. Football is a subjective sport (thank God) and while opinions on the ability of the players is governed by the factors above and many others, it is a sub conscious equation that is not free of bias. Bottom line is, you can't directly say that player A is better than player B i all systems and with all coaches and at all times.

De Rossi never accomplished anything more significant than a Copa Italia at a senior level. As his WC medal is one who took while being absent from most of the tournament. Hell, there are many players who won very little and yet are considered great. In the modern game there is Gerrard, who only has a CL (a big trophy but the numbers stand) to his name. Also there was Batigol who only won one Serie A.

Again, I argued the fact that arguing Song is better than Yaya is a valid argument however you define validity. I am not arguing that Song is better, but that an opinion that Song is better is not a ridiculous opinion. I myself don't rate both of them, and actually share the opinion of Guardiola about Busquets (who I rate, but not much). I can't see where the fact that someone who says Song is better than Yaya makes that persons judgment to be faulty.

Barcelona and Arsenal's systems are very similar so it's not a reach at all to sat Yaya would be very good in Arsenal's system. Barca expected Yaya to be technical, physical, have a good passing rate, be a rock in the center of the field, good going forward, provide killer passes in the final third and be good in the air on set pieces because BArca's a bunch of midget's (which Arsenal could also use), and protect a high backline. HE did all of them very well so it is a very easy jump to say he would be great in Arsenal's system. He jumped to the PL and in his first year looked like he'd been playing there his whole life. HE is just a better player, there really is no argument. IT's not a knock on Song as he's a fine player but Yaya is just better it's obvious. IT's not like one plays for Stoke and the other plays for Arsenal the systems are similar.

And Guardiola did not want to get rid of Yaya. Him and Busquets were going to split minutes and Yaya didn't want to do that. Pep even said it's one of the moves he regrets the most in selling Yaya as he wanted to keep him and loves him as a player.

I know there are players who don't win anything and are really good, but Song has been in games with trophies on the line and hasn't played as well as Yaya. HE steps up in big games it's a factor in why he's better. I mean he played in the back 4 for the first time in the CL final and bossed United, and like I said dragged City to the FA cup and scored in the final two games one against the second best team in the world.

It's just not close at all. You could ask any scout, or level headed fan. Even the guy I'm arguing with wont say Song is better and neither will you so what are we really talking about?

I am talking about the validity of the comments. My argument is that it is not completely ridiculous to have an opinion that Song is better than Yaya, as that opinion is valid, i.e. can be true. Hence, the fact that someone made valid opinion, it does not put their argumentative skills into question. Also, it means that it does not warrant anyone ridiculing them for making that valid opinion.

These are three points, points 2 and 3 are direct effects from point one.

Point one is the validity of the opinion that Song is better than Yaya. Which I provided supporting evidence in the shape of the impossibility of absolutely the truth of the above claim for two players who are in the same ball field. And also provided the case that trophies do not make player A better than player B, which you also agree with.

I also disagree on the fact that Barca and Arsenal's system are very close. They are certainly not, as proven by the lack of tracking back and the more direct style of play, as well as the random behavior of the offensive players.

In conclusion, if you can provide a mathematical equation that without fault can establish player A to be player B then, and only then can the opinion that player B is better than player A be invalid; so you can ridicule Arsenal's fans all you want. But as is the case that providing such an equation is impossible, you can just accept the idea that some people will have opinions that might seem ridiculous to you, but are valid nonetheless. And you then can move on.

Lord Spencer wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:Simply put, being a better player is not a mathematical equation. You can't put a rating on players like PES. There tons of elements you need to take into account.

First, the player himself:
1- Position.
2- His suitability for that position.
3- Skills.
4- Fitness record.
5- Personality.
6- Physical attributes.
7- Mind.

The team he is playing for:
1- The teams strength.
2- His usefulness for the team.
3- The team tactics.
4- Team chemistry.
5- Team style.

The environment:
1- Weather.
2- Fans.
3- Club pressure.

And these are just a taste of the hundreds of criteria that affect a players ability. To say that Song is better than Yaya for Arsenal is a completely valid opinion (valid meaning the opinion to be reasonable; validity as philosophical term means when an opinion can be true). To say that Song is better than Yaya as a DM is also completely valid. There are no proofs anyone can bring to justify their claim. Football experts are divided on the issue, and since you don't have an overwhelming advantage for Yaya, the opinion is Valid.

OK, so take all of those factors you can come up with and Yaya ranks better in more of them because he is a better player. IT's really not that hard. You know when it's trophy time and Arsenal and Song are losing to a relegation team in the Carling Cup and Yaya is dragging City past United to win the FA cup. That's when a players true colors come out and the cream rises to the top.

I mean your post would make some sense if we were comparing Yaya and De Rossi or Essien or someone like that but Song??? Give me a break, the guy has never accomplished anything, he's not a leader and he is a good player but no where near these other players.

You can list a whole bunch of aspects but the bottom line is Yaya is better unless you're a blind Arsenal fan probably the same type of fan who were saying Arsenal's keeper was the second best in the PL and then he shipped 8 to United.

From my post you would understand how some players would work in some systems better than others, hence RG's preference for Song over Yaya. I mentioned those factors and the existence of many others to argue the futility of comparing two players, since there is no mathematical equation that does so. Football is a subjective sport (thank God) and while opinions on the ability of the players is governed by the factors above and many others, it is a sub conscious equation that is not free of bias. Bottom line is, you can't directly say that player A is better than player B i all systems and with all coaches and at all times.

De Rossi never accomplished anything more significant than a Copa Italia at a senior level. As his WC medal is one who took while being absent from most of the tournament. Hell, there are many players who won very little and yet are considered great. In the modern game there is Gerrard, who only has a CL (a big trophy but the numbers stand) to his name. Also there was Batigol who only won one Serie A.

Again, I argued the fact that arguing Song is better than Yaya is a valid argument however you define validity. I am not arguing that Song is better, but that an opinion that Song is better is not a ridiculous opinion. I myself don't rate both of them, and actually share the opinion of Guardiola about Busquets (who I rate, but not much). I can't see where the fact that someone who says Song is better than Yaya makes that persons judgment to be faulty.

Barcelona and Arsenal's systems are very similar so it's not a reach at all to sat Yaya would be very good in Arsenal's system. Barca expected Yaya to be technical, physical, have a good passing rate, be a rock in the center of the field, good going forward, provide killer passes in the final third and be good in the air on set pieces because BArca's a bunch of midget's (which Arsenal could also use), and protect a high backline. HE did all of them very well so it is a very easy jump to say he would be great in Arsenal's system. He jumped to the PL and in his first year looked like he'd been playing there his whole life. HE is just a better player, there really is no argument. IT's not a knock on Song as he's a fine player but Yaya is just better it's obvious. IT's not like one plays for Stoke and the other plays for Arsenal the systems are similar.

And Guardiola did not want to get rid of Yaya. Him and Busquets were going to split minutes and Yaya didn't want to do that. Pep even said it's one of the moves he regrets the most in selling Yaya as he wanted to keep him and loves him as a player.

I know there are players who don't win anything and are really good, but Song has been in games with trophies on the line and hasn't played as well as Yaya. HE steps up in big games it's a factor in why he's better. I mean he played in the back 4 for the first time in the CL final and bossed United, and like I said dragged City to the FA cup and scored in the final two games one against the second best team in the world.

It's just not close at all. You could ask any scout, or level headed fan. Even the guy I'm arguing with wont say Song is better and neither will you so what are we really talking about?

I am talking about the validity of the comments. My argument is that it is not completely ridiculous to have an opinion that Song is better than Yaya, as that opinion is valid, i.e. can be true. Hence, the fact that someone made valid opinion, it does not put their argumentative skills into question. Also, it means that it does not warrant anyone ridiculing them for making that valid opinion.

These are three points, points 2 and 3 are direct effects from point one.

Point one is the validity of the opinion that Song is better than Yaya. Which I provided supporting evidence in the shape of the impossibility of absolutely the truth of the above claim for two players who are in the same ball field. And also provided the case that trophies do not make player A better than player B, which you also agree with.

I also disagree on the fact that Barca and Arsenal's system are very close. They are certainly not, as proven by the lack of tracking back and the more direct style of play, as well as the random behavior of the offensive players.

In conclusion, if you can provide a mathematical equation that without fault can establish player A to be player B then, and only then can the opinion that player B is better than player A be invalid; so you can ridicule Arsenal's fans all you want. But as is the case that providing such an equation is impossible, you can just accept the idea that some people will have opinions that might seem ridiculous to you, but are valid nonetheless. And you then can move on.

Simple question.
Do you need a mathematical equation to tell you that Messi is better than Walcott?
Or are you now going to tell me that Walcott is better for the system?
Bottom line is.
Yaya is twice the player Song will ever be in any system.One doesnt need a mathematical equation for it(and i love Math,greatest thing in the world after Barca and Sharapova).
One just needs to watch the both of them play.

alexjanosik wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:Simply put, being a better player is not a mathematical equation. You can't put a rating on players like PES. There tons of elements you need to take into account.

First, the player himself:
1- Position.
2- His suitability for that position.
3- Skills.
4- Fitness record.
5- Personality.
6- Physical attributes.
7- Mind.

The team he is playing for:
1- The teams strength.
2- His usefulness for the team.
3- The team tactics.
4- Team chemistry.
5- Team style.

The environment:
1- Weather.
2- Fans.
3- Club pressure.

And these are just a taste of the hundreds of criteria that affect a players ability. To say that Song is better than Yaya for Arsenal is a completely valid opinion (valid meaning the opinion to be reasonable; validity as philosophical term means when an opinion can be true). To say that Song is better than Yaya as a DM is also completely valid. There are no proofs anyone can bring to justify their claim. Football experts are divided on the issue, and since you don't have an overwhelming advantage for Yaya, the opinion is Valid.

OK, so take all of those factors you can come up with and Yaya ranks better in more of them because he is a better player. IT's really not that hard. You know when it's trophy time and Arsenal and Song are losing to a relegation team in the Carling Cup and Yaya is dragging City past United to win the FA cup. That's when a players true colors come out and the cream rises to the top.

I mean your post would make some sense if we were comparing Yaya and De Rossi or Essien or someone like that but Song??? Give me a break, the guy has never accomplished anything, he's not a leader and he is a good player but no where near these other players.

You can list a whole bunch of aspects but the bottom line is Yaya is better unless you're a blind Arsenal fan probably the same type of fan who were saying Arsenal's keeper was the second best in the PL and then he shipped 8 to United.

From my post you would understand how some players would work in some systems better than others, hence RG's preference for Song over Yaya. I mentioned those factors and the existence of many others to argue the futility of comparing two players, since there is no mathematical equation that does so. Football is a subjective sport (thank God) and while opinions on the ability of the players is governed by the factors above and many others, it is a sub conscious equation that is not free of bias. Bottom line is, you can't directly say that player A is better than player B i all systems and with all coaches and at all times.

De Rossi never accomplished anything more significant than a Copa Italia at a senior level. As his WC medal is one who took while being absent from most of the tournament. Hell, there are many players who won very little and yet are considered great. In the modern game there is Gerrard, who only has a CL (a big trophy but the numbers stand) to his name. Also there was Batigol who only won one Serie A.

Again, I argued the fact that arguing Song is better than Yaya is a valid argument however you define validity. I am not arguing that Song is better, but that an opinion that Song is better is not a ridiculous opinion. I myself don't rate both of them, and actually share the opinion of Guardiola about Busquets (who I rate, but not much). I can't see where the fact that someone who says Song is better than Yaya makes that persons judgment to be faulty.

Barcelona and Arsenal's systems are very similar so it's not a reach at all to sat Yaya would be very good in Arsenal's system. Barca expected Yaya to be technical, physical, have a good passing rate, be a rock in the center of the field, good going forward, provide killer passes in the final third and be good in the air on set pieces because BArca's a bunch of midget's (which Arsenal could also use), and protect a high backline. HE did all of them very well so it is a very easy jump to say he would be great in Arsenal's system. He jumped to the PL and in his first year looked like he'd been playing there his whole life. HE is just a better player, there really is no argument. IT's not a knock on Song as he's a fine player but Yaya is just better it's obvious. IT's not like one plays for Stoke and the other plays for Arsenal the systems are similar.

And Guardiola did not want to get rid of Yaya. Him and Busquets were going to split minutes and Yaya didn't want to do that. Pep even said it's one of the moves he regrets the most in selling Yaya as he wanted to keep him and loves him as a player.

I know there are players who don't win anything and are really good, but Song has been in games with trophies on the line and hasn't played as well as Yaya. HE steps up in big games it's a factor in why he's better. I mean he played in the back 4 for the first time in the CL final and bossed United, and like I said dragged City to the FA cup and scored in the final two games one against the second best team in the world.

It's just not close at all. You could ask any scout, or level headed fan. Even the guy I'm arguing with wont say Song is better and neither will you so what are we really talking about?

I am talking about the validity of the comments. My argument is that it is not completely ridiculous to have an opinion that Song is better than Yaya, as that opinion is valid, i.e. can be true. Hence, the fact that someone made valid opinion, it does not put their argumentative skills into question. Also, it means that it does not warrant anyone ridiculing them for making that valid opinion.

These are three points, points 2 and 3 are direct effects from point one.

Point one is the validity of the opinion that Song is better than Yaya. Which I provided supporting evidence in the shape of the impossibility of absolutely the truth of the above claim for two players who are in the same ball field. And also provided the case that trophies do not make player A better than player B, which you also agree with.

I also disagree on the fact that Barca and Arsenal's system are very close. They are certainly not, as proven by the lack of tracking back and the more direct style of play, as well as the random behavior of the offensive players.

In conclusion, if you can provide a mathematical equation that without fault can establish player A to be player B then, and only then can the opinion that player B is better than player A be invalid; so you can ridicule Arsenal's fans all you want. But as is the case that providing such an equation is impossible, you can just accept the idea that some people will have opinions that might seem ridiculous to you, but are valid nonetheless. And you then can move on.

Simple question.
Do you need a mathematical equation to tell you that Messi is better than Walcott?
Or are you now going to tell me that Walcott is better for the system?
Bottom line is.
Yaya is twice the player Song will ever be in any system.One doesnt need a mathematical equation for it(and i love Math,greatest thing in the world after Barca and Sharapova).
One just needs to watch the both of them play.

Apparently you failed to read the part about both being in the same ball park ability wise, Messi is not in the same ball park as Walcott, he is far ahead of him. Therefore your argument is invalid. Yaya being "twice" the player Song is a ridiculous statement, such exaggeration shows either profound ignorance in your part or extreme bias.

Lord Spencer wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:Simply put, being a better player is not a mathematical equation. You can't put a rating on players like PES. There tons of elements you need to take into account.

First, the player himself:
1- Position.
2- His suitability for that position.
3- Skills.
4- Fitness record.
5- Personality.
6- Physical attributes.
7- Mind.

The team he is playing for:
1- The teams strength.
2- His usefulness for the team.
3- The team tactics.
4- Team chemistry.
5- Team style.

The environment:
1- Weather.
2- Fans.
3- Club pressure.

And these are just a taste of the hundreds of criteria that affect a players ability. To say that Song is better than Yaya for Arsenal is a completely valid opinion (valid meaning the opinion to be reasonable; validity as philosophical term means when an opinion can be true). To say that Song is better than Yaya as a DM is also completely valid. There are no proofs anyone can bring to justify their claim. Football experts are divided on the issue, and since you don't have an overwhelming advantage for Yaya, the opinion is Valid.

OK, so take all of those factors you can come up with and Yaya ranks better in more of them because he is a better player. IT's really not that hard. You know when it's trophy time and Arsenal and Song are losing to a relegation team in the Carling Cup and Yaya is dragging City past United to win the FA cup. That's when a players true colors come out and the cream rises to the top.

I mean your post would make some sense if we were comparing Yaya and De Rossi or Essien or someone like that but Song??? Give me a break, the guy has never accomplished anything, he's not a leader and he is a good player but no where near these other players.

You can list a whole bunch of aspects but the bottom line is Yaya is better unless you're a blind Arsenal fan probably the same type of fan who were saying Arsenal's keeper was the second best in the PL and then he shipped 8 to United.

From my post you would understand how some players would work in some systems better than others, hence RG's preference for Song over Yaya. I mentioned those factors and the existence of many others to argue the futility of comparing two players, since there is no mathematical equation that does so. Football is a subjective sport (thank God) and while opinions on the ability of the players is governed by the factors above and many others, it is a sub conscious equation that is not free of bias. Bottom line is, you can't directly say that player A is better than player B i all systems and with all coaches and at all times.

De Rossi never accomplished anything more significant than a Copa Italia at a senior level. As his WC medal is one who took while being absent from most of the tournament. Hell, there are many players who won very little and yet are considered great. In the modern game there is Gerrard, who only has a CL (a big trophy but the numbers stand) to his name. Also there was Batigol who only won one Serie A.

Again, I argued the fact that arguing Song is better than Yaya is a valid argument however you define validity. I am not arguing that Song is better, but that an opinion that Song is better is not a ridiculous opinion. I myself don't rate both of them, and actually share the opinion of Guardiola about Busquets (who I rate, but not much). I can't see where the fact that someone who says Song is better than Yaya makes that persons judgment to be faulty.

Barcelona and Arsenal's systems are very similar so it's not a reach at all to sat Yaya would be very good in Arsenal's system. Barca expected Yaya to be technical, physical, have a good passing rate, be a rock in the center of the field, good going forward, provide killer passes in the final third and be good in the air on set pieces because BArca's a bunch of midget's (which Arsenal could also use), and protect a high backline. HE did all of them very well so it is a very easy jump to say he would be great in Arsenal's system. He jumped to the PL and in his first year looked like he'd been playing there his whole life. HE is just a better player, there really is no argument. IT's not a knock on Song as he's a fine player but Yaya is just better it's obvious. IT's not like one plays for Stoke and the other plays for Arsenal the systems are similar.

And Guardiola did not want to get rid of Yaya. Him and Busquets were going to split minutes and Yaya didn't want to do that. Pep even said it's one of the moves he regrets the most in selling Yaya as he wanted to keep him and loves him as a player.

I know there are players who don't win anything and are really good, but Song has been in games with trophies on the line and hasn't played as well as Yaya. HE steps up in big games it's a factor in why he's better. I mean he played in the back 4 for the first time in the CL final and bossed United, and like I said dragged City to the FA cup and scored in the final two games one against the second best team in the world.

It's just not close at all. You could ask any scout, or level headed fan. Even the guy I'm arguing with wont say Song is better and neither will you so what are we really talking about?

I am talking about the validity of the comments. My argument is that it is not completely ridiculous to have an opinion that Song is better than Yaya, as that opinion is valid, i.e. can be true. Hence, the fact that someone made valid opinion, it does not put their argumentative skills into question. Also, it means that it does not warrant anyone ridiculing them for making that valid opinion.

These are three points, points 2 and 3 are direct effects from point one.

Point one is the validity of the opinion that Song is better than Yaya. Which I provided supporting evidence in the shape of the impossibility of absolutely the truth of the above claim for two players who are in the same ball field. And also provided the case that trophies do not make player A better than player B, which you also agree with.

I also disagree on the fact that Barca and Arsenal's system are very close. They are certainly not, as proven by the lack of tracking back and the more direct style of play, as well as the random behavior of the offensive players.

In conclusion, if you can provide a mathematical equation that without fault can establish player A to be player B then, and only then can the opinion that player B is better than player A be invalid; so you can ridicule Arsenal's fans all you want. But as is the case that providing such an equation is impossible, you can just accept the idea that some people will have opinions that might seem ridiculous to you, but are valid nonetheless. And you then can move on.

Simple question.
Do you need a mathematical equation to tell you that Messi is better than Walcott?
Or are you now going to tell me that Walcott is better for the system?
Bottom line is.
Yaya is twice the player Song will ever be in any system.One doesnt need a mathematical equation for it(and i love Math,greatest thing in the world after Barca and Sharapova).
One just needs to watch the both of them play.

Apparently you failed to read the part about both being in the same ball park ability wise, Messi is not in the same ball park as Walcott, he is far ahead of him. Therefore your argument is invalid. Yaya being "twice" the player Song is a ridiculous statement, such exaggeration shows either profound ignorance in your part or extreme bias.

Do you have a mathematical equation to prove that Walcott is not in the same ballpark as Messi ability wise.
No you dont.You reached that conclusion by watching the both of them play.
Similarly watching Song and yaya is enough to know that Song is not in the same ball park ability wise.
Lets do attributes.
Technique-Yaya
Strength-Yaya
Speed-yaya
Positioning-Yaya
Ability to hustle players off the ball-Yaya
Tackling-Yaya
Passing-Yaya
Goals-Yaya
Versatility-Yaya(guy played CB in the CL final)
Bit match temperament-Yaya
In all of the attributed Yaya is superior and in most of them far superior.
So no my argument is not flawed.
You tried to defend an indefensible opinion by trying to sound all clever and bringing math into it(what the hell man).
You fail.Yaya is simply better and its not a matter of opinion.

As to Walcott not being in the same ball park with Messi, that is obvious from any expert point of view.

It is not the same with Yaya and Song, where experts are not in consensus that one is better than the other, not to mention that unlike Walcott and Messi, both Yaya and Song play in the same position..

You have no proof that Yaya is better than Song in any of those attributes, but your opinion in the matter is Valid. The key word here is valid, my argument not is that Song is better than Yaya, but that the argument that Song is better than Yaya is Valid.

I brought Mathematics into the matter because only math is an absolute truth. An opinion is valid unless there is absolute proof against it, and there is not in the case between Yaya and Song.

I am not defending the opinion that Song is better than Yaya, but the right of poster to have an opinion and not be ridiculed like they were some yahoos.

How can you decide what is an "opinion" and what is not. If I am trying to be clever, are trying to be stupid by not actually responding to my argument.

dnmac4 wrote:
And it's useless debating me

I agree . Do not wrestle with pigs .