Sepi wrote:No point Arq. Franchise thinks Song is a better DM than Lucas, despite even Arsenal fans (hell even on Arsenal Mania) admitting to Song's severe lack of positional discipline for a DM....he just doesn't rate our players. No point

And Downing has a broken leg when Boro went down, that's why many clubs were scared to take a risk on him, because they didn't know how he'd come back.

Erm, what did I say Song is better then Lucas? Maybe like 2 seasons ago? I havent said a word about Lucas in a very long time so I dnt know where that comes from.

And by the way. If I was to say Song was better, why not? He has his flaws, but Lucas aint perfect either.

Why would I have anything against Liverpool players?

Dani i will say one thing the thing Johnson does'nt play enough is a myth.....

Atleast last season anyway he played 31 out of 38 possible games despite being nearly 2 months out with an injury.....

Starting 24 of those 31 games.

The Franchise wrote:

Sepi wrote:No point Arq. Franchise thinks Song is a better DM than Lucas, despite even Arsenal fans (hell even on Arsenal Mania) admitting to Song's severe lack of positional discipline for a DM....he just doesn't rate our players. No point

And Downing has a broken leg when Boro went down, that's why many clubs were scared to take a risk on him, because they didn't know how he'd come back.

Erm, what did I say Song is better then Lucas? Maybe like 2 seasons ago? I havent said a word about Lucas in a very long time so I dnt know where that comes from.

You said in how Arsenal are looking compared to top 4 rivals, that you don't see how Liverpool have superior players to Vermaelen, Gervinho and Song in those respective positions

Anyways...back on why England suck. Rooney wasn't in a good mood today and sulked, and so did England as a result

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Dani i will say one thing the thing Johnson does'nt play enough is a myth.....

Atleast last season anyway he played 31 out of 38 possible games despite being nearly 2 months out with an injury.....

Starting 24 of those 31 games.

Really? Sure those stats are correct? Last season, I felt he didnt play enough. Perhaps I am mistaken and I was complaining about Johnson not playing when in fact he was injured.

Sepi wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Sepi wrote:No point Arq. Franchise thinks Song is a better DM than Lucas, despite even Arsenal fans (hell even on Arsenal Mania) admitting to Song's severe lack of positional discipline for a DM....he just doesn't rate our players. No point

And Downing has a broken leg when Boro went down, that's why many clubs were scared to take a risk on him, because they didn't know how he'd come back.

Erm, what did I say Song is better then Lucas? Maybe like 2 seasons ago? I havent said a word about Lucas in a very long time so I dnt know where that comes from.

You said in how Arsenal are looking compared to top 4 rivals, that you don't see how Liverpool have superior players to Vermaelen, Gervinho and Song in those respective positions

Anyways...back on why England suck. Rooney wasn't in a good mood today and sulked, and so did England as a result

Are you making up stuff or was you drunk that night?

I said Verm, RVP and Whilshere.

The Franchise wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Sepi wrote:

ManUnited4Ever wrote:Why Terry Milner Barry Downing and Lampard start for England is beyond my understranding, these players are either past it or not good enough. As to their tempo, its just horrible...no other way to put it.

Tactics are old, same old stuff, get the ball pass it out wide, pass it back, nothing is done through the middle, no flair, no great passing, just boring tactics over and over...

They need to get Rodwell, Henderson, and cleverly in the side, also johnson over downing any day. Capello is an idiot...plain and simple

What has Adam Johnson done to justify a starting place over Downing as a RW ? I'd really like to know. It's another curious case like "Rafael is top 5 RB"

He is better at football?

Not really Dani.

Johnson is like Arjen Robben but a poor mans version.

His repitoire includes running on the wing, cutting in, doing stepovers and fakes and shooting.

It works at times.

Problem is.... he does it all the time and is a one trick pony.

Downing is more intelligent, passes better, crosses far better, long range shooting and accuracy is better along with team and general play. I once or twice mentioned how he is like Beckham who makes up for lack of pace with intelligence and technique.

Downing is hands down better.

Everyone has their opinion, im glad someone was willing to at least talk about the player rather then just throwing stats at me.

Now for me, Johnsons only problem is he doesnt play enough and with that comes some inconsistency and so forth.

However, while Johnson might be one dimensional (I am not sure I agree with that either) its not a diomension that is easily stopped. He is a game changer in the final 1/3.

Downing to me relies on percentage things, like crossing. Johnson can and will go past people and actually pick someone out.

For me, Johnson is by a margin better.

Think about it this way.

There are players, who do not get recognized at their clubs due to lack of flash and fancy moves (A) and then there are those who do. (B)

But when you remove the one who is visually appealing and with a fancy repertoire, the team notices the gap immediately and eventually becomes more of a team.

Then there is (A) who departs and the team immediately feels the gap yet cannot pinpoint it. The manager eventually realizes that Player (A) improved the team not by Coerver tricks and pace, but by his footballing brain, by his timing, guile, intelligent use of the ball on and off it. Remind you of something? Reminds me of David Beckham when he left Madrid. The gap was recognized.

Its the difference between SWP and then Downing.

Think about his one. Players like Downing, Beckham (the intelligent mans wingers) as compared to the SWPs and Johnsons (the footballers with skill in their feet but to thick to know where and when to move and time).

The visually appealing one will get the most attention whereas the brains will not.

Its similar to how Busquets isn't recognized for what he does or Lucas Leiva for Liverpool.

I'm comparing apples and oranges, but the same idea as I know you have the keen idea to spot the difference.

Johnson is eventually subdued as the game goes on as he has no plan B and the defense eventually adapts to his repetition. He is more talented, but so is freddy adu. He looks dangerous on the ball no doubt, but theres a greater outcome with Downing.

Downing uses his brain, his guile and actually improves the team on a whole compared to Johnson who doesn't really have that capability.

Edit: Plus downings ability to take on defenders is quite underrated.

The Franchise wrote:

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Dani i will say one thing the thing Johnson does'nt play enough is a myth.....

Atleast last season anyway he played 31 out of 38 possible games despite being nearly 2 months out with an injury.....

Starting 24 of those 31 games.

Really? Sure those stats are correct? Last season, I felt he didnt play enough. Perhaps I am mistaken and I was complaining about Johnson not playing when in fact he was injured.

That's what ESPN says anyway and they are normally bang on for their stats i personally feel its just its one of those things that the media constantly talk about and in the end it gets drummed into you lol.

I hate propaganda myself

Immaculate_Mole wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Dani i will say one thing the thing Johnson does'nt play enough is a myth.....

Atleast last season anyway he played 31 out of 38 possible games despite being nearly 2 months out with an injury.....

Starting 24 of those 31 games.

Really? Sure those stats are correct? Last season, I felt he didnt play enough. Perhaps I am mistaken and I was complaining about Johnson not playing when in fact he was injured.

That's what ESPN says anyway and they are normally bang on for their stats i personally feel its just its one of those things that the media constantly talk about and in the end it gets drummed into you lol.

I hate propaganda myself

Then my apologies to Mancini. I dont think it was media, I listen to most PL games on mute. I just saw enough games with him not playing and Milner/Barry playing which got my attention.

[quote="Arquitecto"]

The Franchise wrote:

Think about it this way.

There are players, who do not get recognized at their clubs due to lack of flash and fancy moves (A) and then there are those who do. (B)

But when you remove the one who is visually appealing and with a fancy repertoire, the team notices the gap immediately and eventually becomes more of a team.

Then there is (A) who departs and the team immediately feels the gap yet cannot pinpoint it. The manager eventually realizes that Player (A) improved the team not by Coerver tricks and pace, but by his footballing brain, by his timing, guile, intelligent use of the ball on and off it. Remind you of something? Reminds me of David Beckham when he left Madrid. The gap was recognized.

Its the difference between SWP and then Downing.

Think about his one. Players like Downing, Beckham (the intelligent mans wingers) as compared to the SWPs and Johnsons (the footballers with skill in their feet but to thick to know where and when to move and time).

The visually appealing one will get the most attention whereas the brains will not.

Its similar to how Busquets isn't recognized for what he does or Lucas Leiva for Liverpool.

I'm comparing apples and oranges, but the same idea as I know you have the keen idea to spot the difference.

Johnson is eventually subdued as the game goes on as he has no plan B and the defense eventually adapts to his repetition. He is more talented, but so is freddy adu. He looks dangerous on the ball no doubt, but theres a greater outcome with Downing.

Downing uses his brain, his guile and actually improves the team on a whole compared to Johnson who doesn't really have that capability.

Well I think I understand you reasoning. But I would say this.

When Beckham left Madrid, it was his workrate that was the biggest loss rather then anything he did with the ball.

Also, he wasnt playing in the final 3rd of the pitch like Downing and Johnson are.

That I think is my issue here. In the final 1/3 I am someone who much prefers someone of Johnson's type. Downing and his crossing simply annoy me because they are % balls and I think England need to desperate get away from the mentality of "getting down the line and getting crosses in". That and "up the tempo" are two of the biggest things I hear when watching games of England and I dont understand how either help what I am watching.

I dont take this as a case of, Downing and Johnson are equally effective (or your view Downing is more effective) but Johnsons flash is blinding people to that fact. I dont think that is the case here at all.

I think Johnson is subbed form games because Mancini is a overly negative coach. I think that there have been more games in which Johnson has performed well and been subbed then performed bad and subbed.

The Franchise wrote:
Everyone has their opinion, im glad someone was willing to at least talk about the player rather then just throwing stats at me.

Now for me, Johnsons only problem is he doesnt play enough and with that comes some inconsistency and so forth.

However, while Johnson might be one dimensional (I am not sure I agree with that either) its not a diomension that is easily stopped. He is a game changer in the final 1/3.

Downing to me relies on percentage things, like crossing. Johnson can and will go past people and actually pick someone out.

For me, Johnson is by a margin better.

Perfectly agree to this argument. Johnson is a more direct player that will keep the defense on their back foot and pin the LB at least.

@Mole, How many minutes is Johnson playing? he can come in for 15min at the end of the game after Milner, and it will count as an appearance.

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:

The Franchise wrote:
Everyone has their opinion, im glad someone was willing to at least talk about the player rather then just throwing stats at me.

Now for me, Johnsons only problem is he doesnt play enough and with that comes some inconsistency and so forth.

However, while Johnson might be one dimensional (I am not sure I agree with that either) its not a diomension that is easily stopped. He is a game changer in the final 1/3.

Downing to me relies on percentage things, like crossing. Johnson can and will go past people and actually pick someone out.

For me, Johnson is by a margin better.

Perfectly agree to this argument. Johnson is a more direct player that will keep the defense on their back foot and pin the LB at least.

@Mole, How many minutes is Johnson playing? he can come in for 15min at the end of the game after Milner, and it will count as an appearance.

As i said he had 31 appearences from a possible 38 and started 24 of them so that argument doesnt wash.

true, fair enough. We will see how it goes this season tho.

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:true, fair enough. We will see how it goes this season tho.

Having said all of this i dont think Johnson will start much this year with the signings of Aguero and Nasri but last year he got more than his fair share of stats which is the myth that i busted

Dont worry...hes coming, hes coming..

http://www.englandfootballblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/ravel-morrison-blackburn.gif

Futures bright post Capello

[quote="Arquitecto"]

The Franchise wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Sepi wrote:

ManUnited4Ever wrote:Why Terry Milner Barry Downing and Lampard start for England is beyond my understranding, these players are either past it or not good enough. As to their tempo, its just horrible...no other way to put it.

Tactics are old, same old stuff, get the ball pass it out wide, pass it back, nothing is done through the middle, no flair, no great passing, just boring tactics over and over...

They need to get Rodwell, Henderson, and cleverly in the side, also johnson over downing any day. Capello is an idiot...plain and simple

What has Adam Johnson done to justify a starting place over Downing as a RW ? I'd really like to know. It's another curious case like "Rafael is top 5 RB"

He is better at football?

Not really Dani.

Johnson is like Arjen Robben but a poor mans version.

His repitoire includes running on the wing, cutting in, doing stepovers and fakes and shooting.

It works at times.

Problem is.... he does it all the time and is a one trick pony.

Downing is more intelligent, passes better, crosses far better, long range shooting and accuracy is better along with team and general play. I once or twice mentioned how he is like Beckham who makes up for lack of pace with intelligence and technique.

Downing is hands down better.

Everyone has their opinion, im glad someone was willing to at least talk about the player rather then just throwing stats at me.

Now for me, Johnsons only problem is he doesnt play enough and with that comes some inconsistency and so forth.

However, while Johnson might be one dimensional (I am not sure I agree with that either) its not a diomension that is easily stopped. He is a game changer in the final 1/3.

Downing to me relies on percentage things, like crossing. Johnson can and will go past people and actually pick someone out.

For me, Johnson is by a margin better.

Dowing only relys on crosses and cant get past players? Seriously how much u watched Villa or Downing last year?

Even according to Villa fans he is more pacy than Young and is better at getting past players too.And young is considered one of the best pacy wingers in the league.This is the same Adam Johnson u are saying better than Downing who had never started even 20 PL in his career and is already 24.Which decent footballer has never started even 20 league games in his career.

Adam Johnson next SWP in the making .Fact

But then why am i surprised after all Wilshere is better than Gerrard.

Downing is pacey? compared to who? Emile Heskey?

Thats honestly the first time ive read Downing and pace in the same sentence

[quote="BeautifulGame"]

Arquitecto wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Sepi wrote:

ManUnited4Ever wrote:Why Terry Milner Barry Downing and Lampard start for England is beyond my understranding, these players are either past it or not good enough. As to their tempo, its just horrible...no other way to put it.

Tactics are old, same old stuff, get the ball pass it out wide, pass it back, nothing is done through the middle, no flair, no great passing, just boring tactics over and over...

They need to get Rodwell, Henderson, and cleverly in the side, also johnson over downing any day. Capello is an idiot...plain and simple

What has Adam Johnson done to justify a starting place over Downing as a RW ? I'd really like to know. It's another curious case like "Rafael is top 5 RB"

He is better at football?

Not really Dani.

Johnson is like Arjen Robben but a poor mans version.

His repitoire includes running on the wing, cutting in, doing stepovers and fakes and shooting.

It works at times.

Problem is.... he does it all the time and is a one trick pony.

Downing is more intelligent, passes better, crosses far better, long range shooting and accuracy is better along with team and general play. I once or twice mentioned how he is like Beckham who makes up for lack of pace with intelligence and technique.

Downing is hands down better.

Everyone has their opinion, im glad someone was willing to at least talk about the player rather then just throwing stats at me.

Now for me, Johnsons only problem is he doesnt play enough and with that comes some inconsistency and so forth.

However, while Johnson might be one dimensional (I am not sure I agree with that either) its not a diomension that is easily stopped. He is a game changer in the final 1/3.

Downing to me relies on percentage things, like crossing. Johnson can and will go past people and actually pick someone out.

For me, Johnson is by a margin better.

Dowing only relys on crosses and cant get past players? Seriously how much u watched Villa or Downing last year?

Even according to Villa fans he is more pacy than Young and is better at getting past players too.And young is considered one of the best pacy wingers in the league.This is the same Adam Johnson u are saying better than Downing who had never started even 20 PL in his career and is already 24.Which decent footballer has never started even 20 league games in his career.

Adam Johnson next SWP in the making .Fact

But then why am i surprised after all Wilshere is better than Gerrard.

Learn to read, I didnt say only. And so what he went past more people then Young, where is it written I think Young goes past alot of people?

He also isnt faster or more "pacy" then Young, thats redicilous.

Downing hasnt started many games = not good and next SWP.

Your clueless. All that indicates is he plays for a tough team to get into. If Downing was at City, he wouldnt start any games.

Yes, Whilshere is better then Gerrard currently. Get over it, we aint in Istanbul anymore.

Immaculate_Mole wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Dani i will say one thing the thing Johnson does'nt play enough is a myth.....

Atleast last season anyway he played 31 out of 38 possible games despite being nearly 2 months out with an injury.....

Starting 24 of those 31 games.

Really? Sure those stats are correct? Last season, I felt he didnt play enough. Perhaps I am mistaken and I was complaining about Johnson not playing when in fact he was injured.

That's what ESPN says anyway and they are normally bang on for their stats i personally feel its just its one of those things that the media constantly talk about and in the end it gets drummed into you lol.

I hate propaganda myself

He only started 15 PL games last year u are including Europa league cup and FA matches which are misleading.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/_/id/55814/adam-johnson?cc=4716

Fact: Johnson has never started even 20 league games in entire career and is already 24.

No decent player has failed to start even 20 league games in their career at the age of 24.He is just another SWP in the making all hype and nothing else.Infact SWP atleast had a very good season for City before moving to Chelsea.

[quote="The Franchise"]

BeautifulGame wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

Sepi wrote:

ManUnited4Ever wrote:Why Terry Milner Barry Downing and Lampard start for England is beyond my understranding, these players are either past it or not good enough. As to their tempo, its just horrible...no other way to put it.

Tactics are old, same old stuff, get the ball pass it out wide, pass it back, nothing is done through the middle, no flair, no great passing, just boring tactics over and over...

They need to get Rodwell, Henderson, and cleverly in the side, also johnson over downing any day. Capello is an idiot...plain and simple

What has Adam Johnson done to justify a starting place over Downing as a RW ? I'd really like to know. It's another curious case like "Rafael is top 5 RB"

He is better at football?

Not really Dani.

Johnson is like Arjen Robben but a poor mans version.

His repitoire includes running on the wing, cutting in, doing stepovers and fakes and shooting.

It works at times.

Problem is.... he does it all the time and is a one trick pony.

Downing is more intelligent, passes better, crosses far better, long range shooting and accuracy is better along with team and general play. I once or twice mentioned how he is like Beckham who makes up for lack of pace with intelligence and technique.

Downing is hands down better.

Everyone has their opinion, im glad someone was willing to at least talk about the player rather then just throwing stats at me.

Now for me, Johnsons only problem is he doesnt play enough and with that comes some inconsistency and so forth.

However, while Johnson might be one dimensional (I am not sure I agree with that either) its not a diomension that is easily stopped. He is a game changer in the final 1/3.

Downing to me relies on percentage things, like crossing. Johnson can and will go past people and actually pick someone out.

For me, Johnson is by a margin better.

Dowing only relys on crosses and cant get past players? Seriously how much u watched Villa or Downing last year?

Even according to Villa fans he is more pacy than Young and is better at getting past players too.And young is considered one of the best pacy wingers in the league.This is the same Adam Johnson u are saying better than Downing who had never started even 20 PL in his career and is already 24.Which decent footballer has never started even 20 league games in his career.

Adam Johnson next SWP in the making .Fact

But then why am i surprised after all Wilshere is better than Gerrard.

Learn to read, I didnt say only. And so what he went past more people then Young, where is it written I think Young goes past alot of people?

He also isnt faster or more "pacy" then Young, thats redicilous.

Downing hasnt started many games = not good and next SWP.

Your clueless. All that indicates is he plays for a tough team to get into. If Downing was at City, he wouldnt start any games.

Yes, Whilshere is better then Gerrard currently. Get over it, we aint in Istanbul anymore.

Excuses after excuses.Who exactly did he had for a fighting stop at wings last year at City.He is soo good that Mancini started Milner ahead of him at wing when he isolated Baloteli late in the last season.

Of course u knew more than those Villa fans and stats which shows otherwise.Its pretty clear u have never watched Downing much and just judging him based on ur wild assumptions as usual.Just like u did with Gerrard declining assumptions last year.

Calling u clueless is an understatement.U are worse than that.

Oh i forgot Wilshere is better than Gerrard.

Is this thread about the players at their respective clubs or the national team?

@Franchise - How did you come to the conclusion regarding Gerrard and Wilshere?

Excuses? I dont think I put in a reason for anything, let alone an excuse. What are you on about?

Milner was chosen ahead of Johnson because of quality? Are you really this dense? Your saynig it had nothing to do with Mancini's commonly known and accepted defensive and cautious nature? Seriously, if this is the level of your arguement your wasting my time.

Screw Villa fans and stats, I can make up my own mind, I have seen more then enough contary to your belief. Again, I "havent seen" something because I dont agree with your clearly bias opinion.

Attempts to act a wise guy wont save your failing arguement by the way.

poolsupporter wrote:
@Franchise - How did you come to the conclusion regarding Gerrard and Wilshere?

Last 2 seasons Gerrard has missed a fair amount of time through injury, last season he when he did return he ddint look close to his old self.

Meanwhile, Wilshere has become a fantastic player.

When was the last time I saw Gerrard playing at a level higher then Wilshere? About 2 seasons ago. Seeing as we are talking "currently" that to me means Wilshere is the better player right now.

If England had a WC game in tommorow and Gerrrard was fit, who would chose him in the starting 11 if it meant to Whilshere? I know I wouldnt.

Ofcourse if u dont know any argument to prove u not attack the other posters as dense:facepalm:

Mancini played Milner ahead of Johnson because he is consistent not because he just because he is defensive.Milner was one of the best midfielders in the PL the season before unlike Jonhson who is only good as an impact sub.

It seems u dont even watched City to comment on Johnson let alone comment on downing based on watching Villa.


I certainly dont need to act like a wise guy when i am arguing with someone who believes Wilshere is a better player than Gerrard.

Sorry to burst bubbles, but Downing was POTY because they knew Young was going and didnt want to have a want away player to receive the award.
Rooney suffered the same way with Nani winning ours.

Downing has to beat a man but can only do it at his full pace. Young has better acceleration which lets him stop - start the defender and create the extra yard to use.
Young minipulates defenders while Downing has to force a mistake.

BeautifulGame wrote:Ofcourse if u dont know any argument to prove u not attack the other posters as dense:facepalm:

Mancini played Milner ahead of Johnson because he is consistent not because he just because he is defensive.Milner was one of the best midfielders in the PL the season before unlike Jonhson who is only good as an impact sub.

It seems u dont even watched City to comment on Johnson let alone comment on downing based on watching Villa.


I certainly dont need to act like a wise guy when i am arguing with someone who believes Wilshere is a better player than Gerrard.

No, not just other posters, just you.

No, Milner was played because of his defensive qualities.

How is Milner being good the season before relevant? He was playing a different position first of all, but more importantly, who uses last season performances to choose this seasons line up?

I see you like living in the past though, what can I expect.

If you think Milner is a better player then Johnson, I literally am speachless.