Re: The Racism Thread

[McLewis]

because humans are stupid and merely wild animals, and they take favouritism towards their own in-group on all fronts (gender, skin colour, nationalism, etc)

From a super high-level view that aliens would probably have of us, yes.

From a ground level view, it's more complicated than that though I will say, from the American perspective, it has a lot to do with how our enslaved ancestors were treated, due to the white masters favoring the light-skinned over the dark-skinned, for obvious reasons.

[Arquitecto]

Race will *always* be huge in the United States.


From the declaration of independence which spoke of sovereign rights for all men and immutable laws but it never mentioned coloured or indigenous people for such people then were not considered men or humans and that climb for their justice and their struggle to this day, is the reason why the topic of race is within the veins of the country itself.

[El Gunner]

it's not just a US thing, it's everywhere

[El Gunner]

@McLewis, thoughts on the "Black Washing" currently going on in Hollywood? Adaptations on historical figures who clearly are white such as King Richard III but are going to be played by a black female actor nonetheless (as can be seen in the video below).

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cr9oB3hAmYK/

there's also been the case of Cleopatra adaptation by Netflix to be played by a black actress, when most historical scholars believe she was Macedonian Greek. Although the case of Cleopatra's true origins has always been disputed, we all know how white washed current history already is.

[McLewis]

@McLewis, thoughts on the "Black Washing" currently going on in Hollywood? Adaptations on historical figures who clearly are white such as King Richard III but are going to be played by a black female actor nonetheless (as can be seen in the video below).

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cr9oB3hAmYK/

there's also been the case of Cleopatra adaptation by Netflix to be played by a black actress, when most historical scholars believe she was Macedonian Greek. Although the case of Cleopatra's true origins has always been disputed, we all know how white washed current history already is.

I think this is a really weird hill for anyone, including that guy in the IG video, to die on. There are very few Hollywood period pieces that are historically pure. By that guy's logic, once it's been established that only white men can play the role of English kings, the needle will move again to just white British men, eliminating the likes of Timothee Chalamet as Henry V, Mel Gibson as William Wallace, or Chris Pine as Robert the Bruce. That would mean Benedict Wong couldn't play Kublai Khan given his roots are from Hong Kong and clearly not Mongolia or that Daniel Day-Lewis can't play Abraham Lincoln as he's not American. Where does it end?

For Cleopatra, all I'm gonna say is no one batted an eye when Leonor Varela, a Latina actress, played Cleopatra back in 1999. Where was this outrage then?

So this dude doesn't know what he's actually outraged about here. As for me, if the actor embodies the role they're playing and captures the essence of the character, I truly don't care what they look like. That is not immersion-breaking for me and if it is, I'm 100% just not going to watch. What I'm not going to do is get on IG and complain about it.

[El Gunner]

you just spewed a bunch of whataboutism though... i want you to engage on the topic of "black washing".

Why does it seem like Hollywood is intentionally casting black actors (cross gender even) in the roles of white historical figures?

I guess the only reason people didn't care about the Latina casting in 1999 is because identity politics weren't as rife as it is now.

[McLewis]

you just spewed a bunch of whataboutism though... i want you to engage on the topic of "black washing".

Why does it seem like Hollywood is intentionally casting black actors (cross gender even) in the roles of white historical figures?

I guess the only reason people didn't care about the Latina casting in 1999 is because identity politics weren't as rife as it is now.

I took what was said in that video and expanded on it further along its thought process. You may consider that whataboutism, but I don't so we're at an impasse there.

You have as much of an answer on black washing from me as you're likely to get. I suggest reading that last paragraph I posted again. Take it or leave it.

[El Gunner]

E for effort

[Warrior]

None of the examples cited above is immersion breaking as much as a black actor playing white historical character.

The opposite is also true except characters wrongly but widely perceived as white like Jesus Christ

You'll never see Robert Pattinson play Aretha Franklin for example, because that would be offensive to every black person. Meanwhile race is not that much of a sensitive topic to white people, a black female plays King Richard oh well that's weird, cannot be taken seriously if anything.

Btw i laugh of white elites willing to push diversity at all costs, in fact they are not benevolent, their real goal is to redeem white people and avoid being hated... by siding with people who will forever despise them regardless

[McLewis]

I mean no one is stopping anyone from casting Swfit as Mansa Musa or Pattinson as Aretha Franklin. Go right ahead. If there's an audience for that and studios think it will make money, it's going to get made, no matter how ridiculous it sounds. That's capitalism for ya.

I love Danai Gurira and think she's a fabulous actor, but I don't expect the play featuring her as Richard III to make much of a profit, just as Jodie Turner-Smith's movie with her playing Anne Boleyn didn't exactly do numbers either. Both productions are for a specific audience to enjoy and I believe they will. It's not intended to be made for everyone. White people can't handle that very simple truth. Not everything is made with them in mind anymore. It's a brave new world.

[Warrior]

The specific audience is woke people who believe a new perspective is needed. It seems nowadays everything is made with this loud minority in mind. That's what bothers a lot of people of all races.

If i made the effort could probably list 100 movies not intended for white people it's funny that your conclusion is about white people being bitter. That's how you wish it was huh but reality is less simple

[El Gunner]

it's stupid and nonsensical with a clear intent to push some sort of identity politics agenda, if you ask me...

but what the present and end goal is, i have no idea? Is it to make some black people and brainwashed liberals feel good about themselves as in, "hahahaha, look at that powerful black woman playing the role of a coloniser white man!! fuck you coloniser white man!"

and then the show/movie ends, and then life goes on... or most likely, it fuels more race divide and hatred towards "whiteness" subconsciously

[Myesyats]

I dont care at all but just saying how can you blast whites for doing this and then go on to doing the same thing and predent now it's fine but then it wasnt?

iirc you're a historian McLewis which makes it even more suprising for me, because we're talking about 100% real historical figures

[Pedram]

but what the present and end goal is, i have no idea? Is it to make some black people and brainwashed liberals feel good about themselves as in, "hahahaha, look at that powerful black woman playing the role of a coloniser white man!! fuck you coloniser white man!"

and then the show/movie ends, and then life goes on... or  most likely, it fuels more race divide and hatred towards "whiteness" subconsciously

The end goal is to move the discussion from class divide to racial divide.

Liberals believe in "demographics is destiny" mantra, if you can cobble together all minorities under your banner and make the white guy your enemy you've got an easy route to power, and they've been quite successful in that regard tbh.

[McLewis]

The specific audience is woke people who believe a new perspective is needed. It seems nowadays everything is made with this loud minority in mind. That's what bothers a lot of people of all races.

If i made the effort could probably list 100 movies not intended for white people it's funny that your conclusion is about white people being bitter. That's how you wish it was huh but reality is less simple

If that's the specific audience, then only that audience will care. The real question is: Why do you?

it's stupid and nonsensical with a clear intent to push some sort of identity politics agenda, if you ask me...

but what the present and end goal is, i have no idea? Is it to make some black people and brainwashed liberals feel good about themselves as in, "hahahaha, look at that powerful black woman playing the role of a coloniser white man!! fuck you coloniser white man!"

and then the show/movie ends, and then life goes on... or  most likely, it fuels more race divide and hatred towards "whiteness" subconsciously

I think it all boils down to this: Roles that were once forbidden for actors of color to take on are now fair game. Capitalism will have its say on whether the decision to do so is a sound one, of course.

I dont care at all but just saying how can you blast whites for doing this and then go on to doing the same thing and predent now it's fine but then it wasnt?

iirc you're a historian McLewis which makes it even more suprising for me, because we're talking about 100% real historical figures

I'm a history nerd, but I would not at all call myself a historian. I don't have the educational or professional background to say that. That said, I'm not a history purist when it comes to adaptations of historical events by Hollywood. The point of these productions is not to get the history right, it's to make money by entertaining the public. Somewhere, that distinction got lost in the shuffle.

2 of my favorite historical films, Gladiator and Kindgom of Heaven, are riddled with historical inaccuracies. Some are large ones, some are small ones. None of it bothers me because I expect that from Hollywood. Why others don't is the real mystery to me.

To put it plainly - If I want historical purity, I'll watch a documentary.

but what the present and end goal is, i have no idea? Is it to make some black people and brainwashed liberals feel good about themselves as in, "hahahaha, look at that powerful black woman playing the role of a coloniser white man!! fuck you coloniser white man!"

and then the show/movie ends, and then life goes on... or  most likely, it fuels more race divide and hatred towards "whiteness" subconsciously

The end goal is to move the discussion from class divide to racial divide.

Liberals believe in "demographics is destiny" mantra, if you can cobble together all minorities under your banner and make the white guy your enemy you've got an easy route to power, and they've been quite successful in that regard tbh.

Speaking purely from a Black progressive perspective, the "liberals" you're speaking of are largely milquetoast millennial, college-educated white folks that are doing the opposite what you said. These folks are little further left of center than their parents. They're actually taking clear, systemic racial issues in this country and shoving them under the big tent of "class". Doing this erases the racial problems entirely, meaning they'll never get solved because the assumption is that solving class problems solves racial problems. And that's patently wrongthink. Solving class problems solves only that. It still leaves racial problems unsolved. White liberals don't understand this and largely don't want to understand this. It's why I don't like Bernie supporters. That nonsense is of their making. Liberals are not the monolith you've painted them as. Malcolm X's words have wrung true for decades regarding this.

[Warrior]

The specific audience is woke people who believe a new perspective is needed. It seems nowadays everything is made with this loud minority in mind. That's what bothers a lot of people of all races.

If i made the effort could probably list 100 movies not intended for white people it's funny that your conclusion is about white people being bitter. That's how you wish it was huh but reality is less simple

If that's the specific audience, then only that audience will care. The real question is: Why do you?

The answer is in the post you quoted. I highlight it now

Wokeness is the most consistent form of hatred nowadays. Pedram and El G summed up quite well how i perceive it although they use the word liberal instead. I am not blind i know wokes like you will sugarcoat their ideas through intellectualism and virtue signaling. Overall the effect is superficial it triggers white supremacists and that's it, i am not afraid, it does not ruin my day, but i am interested enough in the politics of my times to feel the need to express that i find it ridiculous.

[McLewis]

The specific audience is woke people who believe a new perspective is needed. It seems nowadays everything is made with this loud minority in mind. That's what bothers a lot of people of all races.

If i made the effort could probably list 100 movies not intended for white people it's funny that your conclusion is about white people being bitter. That's how you wish it was huh but reality is less simple

If that's the specific audience, then only that audience will care. The real question is: Why do you?

The answer is in the post you quoted. I highlight it now

Wokeness is the most consistent form of hatred nowadays. Pedram and El G summed up quite well how i perceive it although they use the word liberal instead. I am not blind i know wokes like you will sugarcoat their ideas through intellectualism and virtue signaling. Overall the effect is superficial it triggers white supremacists and that's it, i am not afraid, it does not ruin my day, but i am interested enough in the politics of my times to feel the need to express that i find it ridiculous.

Listen to yourself. You're throwing around "wokeness" and "wokes" in a manner intended to cast derision and harm. You decry virtue signaling and identity politics yet engage in it without any thought to what you're actually talking about. These are not the actions of someone "interested in politics". They are the actions of someone interested in entertaining themselves at the expense of others. You should reflect on that.

I do wonder though....what exactly is your understanding of the term "woke"? Who or what source did you derive that understanding from?

[Warrior]

Wokes are people who have radical progressive approach, so obsessed with social justice that ironically racial and class divide is a priority to them. Not my fault if the original woke movement has derailed into a melting pot of antagonizers of all sorts.

Cast derision and harm, entertain myself at the expense of others and what not... basically i am the mean guy because i disagree with you

There is no ignorance or incoherence in my post

[McLewis]

Who or what influenced your definition of "woke"?

[rincon]

People care way too much about this. If you don't find that minorities playing different roles is for you, then skip and move on.

What happened with white american dudes exclusively playing Jesus over the years?

I remember everyone liked Brad Pitt playing one of Greek's mythology most recognizable heroes.

A particularly grating one for me, Wagner Moura played Escobar to critical acclaim. Escobar was not only a real person, but was alive at same time most viewers were. We know what he sounded like. Yet Moura could not pass as Colombian (or native hispanic) to any native Spanish speaker.

They are actors, they act, that's the whole point. Now Hollywood is giving a bunch of black actors other roles to play.

Who cares? let people enjoy it. All this complaining is the biggest example of "virtue signaling" by a group that supposedly bemoans the practice.

[El Gunner]

it's more than that rincon, it's the fact that you know it is being done with some identity politics agenda in mind.

all those examples you mention are not close to being as stark as "white vs black identity politics", or a black female playing the role of a white coloniser

[BarrileteCosmico]

I broadly agree with Rincon, but all the same think it's a shame all this Hollywood talent is being wasted to tell the same old stories when they could draw inspiration and awareness into amazing Black stories that have gone unheard so far.

Ex: The Count of Monte Cristo was based on the life of General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, who had an incredibly cinematic life and would make for an amazing Netflix show.

[McLewis]

it's more than that rincon, it's the fact that you know it is being done with some identity politics agenda in mind.

No. It's being done for profit. Identity politics is merely the mask they've chosen to hide that truth behind. Hollywood studios give exactly zero fucks about which actress plays which historic character. All they care about is if that product will turn a great profit, which makes the executives wealthier. The "identity politics" narrative is a smokescreen and every single one of us (myself included) have fallen for it. I love the increase in representation in these features, but part of being woke is being able to open my mind up to thinking more clearly about all of this in order cut through all of the bullshit.

[McLewis]

I broadly agree with Rincon, but all the same think it's a shame all this Hollywood talent is being wasted to tell the same old stories when they could draw inspiration and awareness into amazing Black stories that have gone unheard so far.

Ex: The Count of Monte Cristo was based on the life of General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, who had an incredibly cinematic life and would make for an amazing Netflix show.

Instead, they chose one of history's most mid figures in Marco Polo to do an epic history series on. The show is great for how they've portrayed the Mongols and the Song dynasty, but it's still steeped in white saviorism.

[Myesyats]

it's more than that rincon, it's the fact that you know it is being done with some identity politics agenda in mind.

No. It's being done for profit. Identity politics is merely the mask they've chosen to hide that truth behind. Hollywood studios give exactly zero fucks about which actress plays which historic character. All they care about is if that product will turn a great profit, which makes the executives wealthier.

You say its for a specific audience and at the same time supposed to make lots of money. If such movies are aimed at a niche and specific minority audience then they will not turn a great profit. That logic seems flawed. Do black people really want English inbred queens depicted as beautiful black women? Especially when there are so few films about African royalty which have never been made. I'd definitely want to watch those!

[rincon]

I broadly agree with Rincon, but all the same think it's a shame all this Hollywood talent is being wasted to tell the same old stories when they could draw inspiration and awareness into amazing Black stories that have gone unheard so far.

Ex: The Count of Monte Cristo was based on the life of General Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, who had an incredibly cinematic life and would make for an amazing Netflix show.

That's a different point with which I also agree. That has more to do with how safe Hollywood plays it with big budget movies. Same stories, same characters, bankable box office.

At the same time you have something like The Last of Us which is original content, talking about the game, that creates great characters that are gay, women, and people of different races. Yet you hear the same complaints when it's adapted to TV about political agendas and all that nonsense. It casts a shadow on the source of the complaints in some cases.

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