Re: The Racism Thread

[farfan]

Ah, that's a good point. I also do think Putin raised a good point in his claim that the "the west is an empire of liars" - pointing towards the un-written agreement Boris Yeltsin had on behalf of Russia with several world leaders during the mid 90s, where the majority of the non-Russian participants promised that they wouldn't attempt to influence the territories east of Germany. An agreement they absolutely didn't uphold. Of course, that doesn't justify what Putin is doing at all, but the western Justice League isn't exactly made up of heroes either.

Checking Russian power, whether preemptively or reactively, has been a recurring theme in Western foreign policy for two centuries. I think we underestimate the extent to which this has affected the consciousness of the Russian elite and their perception of the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War

Throwback to when France and the UK, two countries who have colonized half the planet, waged one of the bloodiest and most pointless wars because Russia "upset the balance of power" by occupying two Ottoman vassal states.

[Nishankly]

Caste-like views such as those tend to be much more prominent in developing countries, as I'm sure you're aware of.

Extremely easy to say, have you been to India in the past 45 years or spoken personally to more than 5 people or are you regurgitating what you've read or seen in Western media? But if this is way you structure these posts, that actually helps me understand your stance on Ukrainian culture.

I've never been to India.

What am I trying to justify?

Caste-like views such as those tend to be much more prominent in developing countries, as I'm sure you're aware of.

Caste system as you mentioned is not based on skin color which is an obvious pointer to India, it is based on the surname. You can be a different skin color than what you think and still be "the highest of caste" but this again is a load of shite since if Russia were to invade Ukraine, India or any other country, they would not be sitting there having their country leaders telling us about how a specific skin would be the best to save as you tried to justify in your post after.

I won't rule out the possibility that he simply assumed he might garner more sympathy and attention from foreign viewers by pointing out that there are blonde/blue eyed people among the civilians being killed.

I'm not saying that the guy in the video absolutely isn't racist, he might be, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt since I know from experience that some people from the same cultural sphere are quite socially handicapped outside of their region, unless they're familiar with foreign norms.

As I said, this is what you think that you say you could live with and I found that unpleasant that you could sit there and accept it and the issue is with obviously Ukraine but also you for accepting it and trying to rationale with the rest of us.

[Thimmy]

Again, I called out non white countries being racist in the other thread as well, it is just the way you tried to justify, that warranted this kind of response from me.

I'm not sure which thread you're referring to.

I do associate the concept of a caste system with India. I believe it was taught to us in history class in elementary school, and India was used as an example. I wasn't referring specifically to your Indian background when I said that, though. And now that you mention skin color, I probably shouldn't have used that term at all. I was thinking strictly about ranking people by whatever is culturally considered to be higher status, whether that be height, wealth or whatever.

I may be wrong, but I believe you have mentioned that you've traveled quite a bit and you're currently residing in Europe(?), and so I assume that you, and most other members on here for that matter, are aware that developed and developing countries have significantly different views on socio-economy.

We obviously shouldn't excuse anyone for racism, but I think it's worth pointing out that there are cultural nuances that makes these things complicated to judge by the same standard, and it's not always so convenient that we can judge everyone through the lens of the political correctness that we're mostly known for in the developed west.

Again, I don't agree with it, there are probably many cultures that practice things I don't agree with, but I've learnt from past mistakes that I've often judged things based on how my culture has taught me to view them, and sometimes that causes you to ignore nuances that go some way in explaining why people may act in a disagreeable way. If you can be bothered to try and understand what they're thinking, then you may not always fall back to the same, extreme conclusions.

[Thimmy]

Caste was the worst term I could've used. I had completely forgotten that it was related to race

[BarcaLearning]

Shame it is definitely, todays media means we can see everything any time any where pretty much, nothing is hidden anymore, or at least its very difficult to hide, n general everyday ppl in todays world are lucky to just know so much more than in the past being misled so easily by the top

Just regarding Putins military (them poor young soldiers though who prolly dont know a thing except having to take orders) failure so far n Ukraine ppls bravery has been great to see.

[El Gunner]

it's so disgusting Nishy, beyond comprehensible disgusting... i have said this during the Covid politics and i'll reiterate it again... I HAVE NO HOPE FOR HUMANITY.

[El Gunner]

My instinctive suspicion would've been racist, as well, but since I've talked to some incredibly culturally awkward people from that region of Europe before, I won't rule out the possibility that he simply assumed he might garner more sympathy and attention from foreign viewers by pointing out that there are blonde/blue eyed people among the civilians being killed.

I'm by no means an expert on Ukraine, but I do know that a lot of Ukrainians find those features particularly attractive or indicating of high status. I'm not going to tells stories of anecdotal evidence, but that's been the impression I've gotten from talking to people from Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova and Romania. Blonde, blue eyed people are often expected to be more successful and charming, and as silly as that may sound, that's the cultural view. Would love to hear the perspectives of our members from that part of the world on this.

I don't agree with it, but it seems more accurate to view it as a conservative perspective on social values, rather than something that exists for the sake of racial exclusivity or stigma. I'm not saying that the guy in the video absolutely isn't racist, he might be, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt since I know from experience that some people from the same cultural sphere are quite socially handicapped outside of their region, unless they're familiar with foreign norms.

and what you don't seem to understand that everything about this is so intrinsically racist, even the way you are trying to defend such actions.

i can assure you, mentioning blonde hair and blue eyes won't get you more affection from foreigners, especially non-white communities

[El Gunner]

For me, I mean it's quite easy if you are going to Eastern Europe for anything, you are on your own. Just kind of reminds us how humanity and peace is being called out while never being justified when it comes to non white communities. I think even African community has called things out as Mc mentioned in another thread.

remind me, where did our very own GL resident Indian native @Adit go to in Eastern Europe?

[The Demon of Carthage]

Guys, if you speak French, check what French journalists are saying about the conflict. They are not even trying to hide their racism this time.

[Myesyats]

Spoiler:

Okay, read the thread

Ok so I'll comment clip by clip

1. the guy looks Indian not sure what to make of it, georgian surname but georgian people are dark-haired and not blue-eyed
2. the CBS guy clearly didnt mean that brown people deserve to be bombed more-so than whites, he was trying to say that we're not used to seeing bombing in Europe whereas Middle East had been a continuously unstable region which is just objectively true.
3. this one is bad
4. same as 2 really, I don't believe the case here is that he thinks it's normal for black/brown people to get bombed. He's comparing unstable regions to stable regions, it just so happens middle east is in a never-ending conflict whereas it's unthinkable to see European capitals bombed in present day
5. this is not only racist but very dumb and hurts to read
6. same as 2 and 4
7. not enough context, i dont understand french
8. same as 7



So what I'm gathering from this is that there are obviously some racist people like everywhere (if you pick and choose you can make anyone look bad, as you said with indians supporting putin), duh, but a lot of folks are  having trouble conveying how the situation is unusual for a relatively stable region compared to unstable regions (it's clear for me especially in clip #2)

can you imagine Warsaw or Prague being bombed in 2022? yeah, Kiev or Lviv is very close. We're past the phase of dictators, civil wars and overthrowing of government.

[Pedram]

Man this Ukraine conflict has really turned into a great opportunity for racists to out themselves without any shame.

[Nishankly]

Again, I called out non white countries being racist in the other thread as well, it is just the way you tried to justify, that warranted this kind of response from me.

I'm not sure which thread you're referring to.

I do associate the concept of a caste system with India. I believe it was taught to us in history class in elementary school, and India was used as an example. I wasn't referring specifically to your Indian background when I said that, though. And now that you mention skin color, I probably shouldn't have used that term at all. I was thinking strictly about ranking people by whatever is culturally considered to be higher status, whether that be height, wealth or whatever.

I may be wrong, but I believe you have mentioned that you've traveled quite a bit and you're currently residing in Europe(?), and so I assume that you, and most other members on here for that matter, are aware that developed and developing countries have significantly different views on socio-economy.

We obviously shouldn't excuse anyone for racism, but I think it's worth pointing out that there are cultural nuances that makes these things complicated to judge by the same standard, and it's not always so convenient that we can judge everyone through the lens of the political correctness that we're mostly known for in the developed west.

Again, I don't agree with it, there are probably many cultures that practice things I don't agree with, but I've learnt from past mistakes that I've often judged things based on how my culture has taught me to view them, and sometimes that causes you to ignore nuances that go some way in explaining why people may act in a disagreeable way. If you can be bothered to try and understand what they're thinking, then you may not always fall back to the same, extreme conclusions.

I hear you but I do not see an application here. Also on caste as I mentioned, if any person in India tried to elevate publicly during war saving a specific caste, that person will be cancelled to the ground and below if not publicly beaten up lol. Here, the Ukrainian guy even leaves out his fellow non Blonde Ukrainians behind much before people like us get offended as you mention. Understanding why is one thing and accepting it is another, you are doing both, I refuse to do the latter.

I understand there is a caste system in rural India, I refuse to accept it as normal and do everything in my power never to provide any form acceptance to it even if it's something as small as a form being filled, I was raised and have always been surrounded by people who never see caste even if they were casteist before. I will not give people the benefit of the doubt for being bigots intentionally or unintentionally regardless of their outdated culture, it's time to change and the change is slow and accepting these fucks will only slower all the progress we have together achieved as humans.

Also caste is not related to race, it's built on professions that people did in ancient India, it applied to surnames and that has been carried forward in uneducated masses. The current president of India is from the "lowest" caste hope that is also now taught in your schools

[Thimmy]

My instinctive suspicion would've been racist, as well, but since I've talked to some incredibly culturally awkward people from that region of Europe before, I won't rule out the possibility that he simply assumed he might garner more sympathy and attention from foreign viewers by pointing out that there are blonde/blue eyed people among the civilians being killed.

I'm by no means an expert on Ukraine, but I do know that a lot of Ukrainians find those features particularly attractive or indicating of high status. I'm not going to tells stories of anecdotal evidence, but that's been the impression I've gotten from talking to people from Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova and Romania. Blonde, blue eyed people are often expected to be more successful and charming, and as silly as that may sound, that's the cultural view. Would love to hear the perspectives of our members from that part of the world on this.

I don't agree with it, but it seems more accurate to view it as a conservative perspective on social values, rather than something that exists for the sake of racial exclusivity or stigma. I'm not saying that the guy in the video absolutely isn't racist, he might be, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt since I know from experience that some people from the same cultural sphere are quite socially handicapped outside of their region, unless they're familiar with foreign norms.

and what you don't seem to understand that everything about this is so intrinsically racist, even the way you are trying to defend such actions.

i can assure you, mentioning blonde hair and blue eyes won't get you more affection from foreigners, especially non-white communities

Please explain to me how I'm being racist by "defending such actions" then. The way I see it, I didn't defend or justify what he said or did, I just don't rule out the possibility that he's not being intentionally racist. I provided a possible explanation for his behaviour that might be wrong, for all I know.

I'll be straight. Nishankly, EG, you two tend to read exactly what you want to read, and often seem to ignore what I'm actually writing in favor of what you're determined to see. That's a tendency I've seen when I write about managers and you keep bringing the topic back to being offended on Klopp's behalf because you think I'm specifically going after him. Or in EG's case, diggs towards Messi that never existed. A lot of the time, I can't tell if you're intentionally using straw hat arguments, or if you're countering an argument that you think you actually see.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're making it sound like I'm the one who's promoting blonde hair and blue eyes, which is absurd to me lol. I didn't want to bring up stories of anecdotal evidence for anything, because it often doesn't serve any purpose, and by now I'd be surprised if it wouldn't be misinterpreted. But personal experience sometimes matters. For me, there's a clear difference between accepting racism and not assuming that it's absolutely the only possible intention behind someone's behaviour. Let's end it at that.

[El Gunner]

and the point we're making is he shouldn't be excused for that type of talking even if it can be argued he isn't be intentionally racist.

dude, there's literally a list of racist examples just on this one issue in that thread posted but you decided to make the choice to defend or provide an excuse for one of them.

instead what you could have done is call out the racism! share it with your culturally awkward friends and family so that they can learn something as well.

[The Demon of Carthage]

This is actually one of my favorites:

This isn’t a place, with all due respect, like Iraq or Afghanistan that has seen conflict raging for decades,. This is a relatively civilised, relatively European – I have to choose those words carefully too – city, where you wouldn’t expect that or hope that it’s going to happen

And he chose his words carefully, mind you

Imagine invading and destroying countries on a false pretense, then have the nerve to call them uncivilized.

This is comedy gold

[Thimmy]

and the point we're making is he shouldn't be excused for that type of talking even if it can be argued he isn't be intentionally racist.

dude, there's literally a list of racist examples just on this one issue in that thread posted but you decided to make the choice to defend or provide an excuse for one of them.

instead what you could have done is call out the racism! share it with your culturally awkward friends and family so that they can learn something as well.

Yeah, that's classy, EG.

[Nishankly]

Don't know about that Thimmy but Klopp's my papa so I'll give you that one. There is grey zone at most places where it comes to politically correct statements but here you are creating one when it's black and white.

[farfan]

I don't think Ukraine and most other former Soviet states are "past" any of those things @Myesyats. The majority are still ruled by kleptocrats or have very fragile and young democracies.

I'm also not getting these constant references to "developing" and "third world" countries as if Ukraine isn't one. They have a lower GDP than countries like Algeria and a lower human development index than Iran

[Thimmy]

Don't know about that Thimmy but Klopp's my papa so I'll give you that one. There is grey zone at most places where it comes to politically correct statements but here you are creating one when it's black and white.

I think that's where we disagree. I don't think it's black or white. If it was, then I'd agree that he's a racist, because the only alternative would be complete innocence and that's clearly not the case here. I thought I made it clear that I'm not absolutely claiming that he's not racist. He might be, for all I know. I don't think what he said is appropriate either, for that matter, but I don't take it for granted that he said those things with the intention to appear like a racist to foreign viewers. Why would anyone in his position do that?

There was a similar discussion on here regarding the female Juventus player who did the "Asian eyes" gesture, and I had a similar stance. Even Hans backed me up on that one. We can all agree that it's inappropriate, and in the case of that player, I think we can all agree that the gesture is racist. But the intention matters, and I do find it troublesome that some people treat them the same as they do with people who are unapologetically and actively racist - in which case, I'd be more inclined to agree that things are black or white.

[sportsczy]

Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.

[Thimmy]

Well, I genuinely think that if people made some effort to understand where the actions that they perceive as racist are coming from, as opposed to condemning and shunning the perpetrators as soon as they sense potential offense, the world would be a better place. The fact that these situations sometimes aren't black or white, means that people who opt not to get along, could potentially do so if they tried.

Unlike, what EG suggests in his snarky comment, I don't have a lot of friends from Eastern Europe who I see regularly. I've met the majority of them while traveling around Europe. Some of them have spent time abroad and are in tune with the norms that we have and expect, and some of them don't. That in itself can cause a lot of misunderstandings that some people evidently don't care to try and understand. I could just as conveniently accuse EG of being racist for suggesting, or even more conveniently - insisting that my friends and family are culturally awkward. But that wouldn't lead to anything positive for anyone.

[El Gunner]

yea just now when i entered this thread before reading your replies i remember what i said, and i felt a bit bad because i could have phrased it better, especially for insinuating that your family are "culturally awkward". It was more just a dig at that phrase and that excuse you were making, i should have rather said, "share it with your family and friends as an example of what is racist so that they can in turn also correct these 'culturally awkward' individuals whenever they come across them".

I understand your sentiments of hoping that people can be more open to talking about the topic and act of racism and what exactly constitutes it... instead of just potentially blindly assuming vitriol or hatred when there wasn't any intended. But i can assure you, every instance in that thread is an act of intrinsic, deeply-rooted underlying racism in society and our everyday language.

it's also a very slippery slope when talking about what exactly constitutes intent vs non-intent because the perpetrator could always go back and easily plead plausible deniability. And also people will always have differing interpretations of how something was said and how they personally perceived it.

[El Gunner]

Everyone's racist... even the victims of racism.

explain your believe in this more

[El Gunner]

I don't think Ukraine and most other former Soviet states are "past" any of those things @Myesyats. The majority are still ruled by kleptocrats or have very fragile and young democracies.

I'm also not getting these constant references to "developing" and "third world" countries as if Ukraine isn't one. They have a lower GDP than countries like Algeria and a lower human development index than Iran

it's simple my friend...
the stereotype is all African and Middle Eastern countries except for the UAE are "developing/third world countries"

[The Demon of Carthage]

Well, I genuinely think that if people made some effort to understand where the actions that they perceive as racist are coming from, as opposed to condemning and shunning the perpetrators as soon as they sense potential offense, the world would be a better place. The fact that these situations sometimes aren't black or white, means that people who opt not to get along, could potentially do so if they tried.

I think the key to understanding their position is to put yourself in their shoes. Imagine being persecuted and discriminated against for hundreds of years, would you still tolerate and find the time and patience "to understand where the actions that they perceive as racist are coming from" instead of immediately calling them out on it? Maybe you would, but most people wouldn't, and understandably so.

The main problem here is that you can't reason with most racists. They have ideas set and stone, and if you don't call them out on it, they will continue to say it out loud, whether in a subtle or blatant way. This is why I kinda understand and even sympathize when a victim of racism chooses to immediately condemns the perpetrator without seeking any further dialogue with them.

The reason you may have not understood their position is perhaps because you didn't try to see things from their perspective.

[Casciavit]

I think it's about time many realize that some Europeans have a different definition of what racism is compared to people in the west.

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