Re: 2020 US presidential election

by sportsczy Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:49 am

The reason that you can't see the extremism of the left is that you're blind to it. No other way to put it. It's a different type of extremism... its akin to a cultural revolution where you force people to think a specific way and persecute (or cancel) anyone who doesn't. It's only democratic and lawful if the situation suits its purpose. If it doesn't, then anarchy is ok.

No need to explain the far right.

Both are horrible.

by CBarca Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:00 am

The problem isn't really Dem or republican though although it's obvious Republicans are 1000000x worse

Our institutions are fucking shit anti democratic antimajoritarian racist 300 year old slave-loving outdated motherfuckers. Piled on by how many years of autocratic corporate loving, tax evading, law bribing shit?

Until institutions are reformed we're going nowhere. Party politics is about power, and it's clear that Republicans are fucking done with "norms" and "democracy" and "rule of law".

Electoral college needs to go. Gerrymandering must be outlawed. Campaign finance must be reformed. Those are the easy ones ("easy"). Then we need to move towards a mixed member proportional representation system.

It's just going to escalate from here. Trump has done one good thing -- he's exposed all of the ugliness in the US. It's a lot, and it's not going away.

by sportsczy Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:01 am

Freeza wrote:Moving away from moderate politics on both sides led to this? Absolutely insane take.

The two most hated politicians by the right wing is moderates in Obama and Clinton. It wouldn't matter who actually was a democratic candidate because they've been brainwashed to think all democrats are socialists despite noone even knowing what 'socialist' even means.

Brainwashing and bigotry led to this.

Obama and Clinton aren't hated lol. What a weird thing to say. Both won first and second terms by actual landslides. They had their flaws obviously... but very good statesmen and wicked smart.

Bush Jr was hated (less so now). Carter is another.

I have a different take on the cause of our issues: Technology. The tech revolution we've been going through is similar to the industrial revolution. The consequence of both was that large segments of the population suddenly found themselves becoming obsolete and unproductive. Middle America used to be middle class and, now, they've become lower class or even impoverished. Globalization accelerated their demise.

What you're seeing is a reaction of being ignored by whom they deem as the "elite". The core of the issue, to me, is economics. These people have lost their path towards the "American Dream". We need to find them.

Similarly, inner cities need to be given a path to achieving the American Dream.

In short, we're the result of lazy politics and greed. We focused on national GDP and the stock market without looking at who was benefiting. The rudder is a bit crooked... need to point it in a direction where most Americans can thrive.

by CBarca Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:02 am

You can't reform or bring back Republicans because that party is dead. They don't give a fuck.

You have to reform institutions to bring the Republican party back to the median voter.

by sportsczy Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:03 am

CBarca wrote:You can't reform or bring back Republicans because that party is dead. They don't give a fuck.

You have to reform institutions to bring the Republican party back to the median voter.

I agree. Hence my endorsement of the Lincoln Project.

by McLewis Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:10 am

The Lincoln Project do not have me fooled.

This was a mutual assured destruction-type partnership with Democrats.

Watch what happens when Biden takes office. These Lincoln Project Republicans will magically morph back into just regular old pre-Trump Republicans, grandstanding about the budget as a method to stifle progress, just as they did with Obama.

And I really can't believe you said they didn't hate Obama. They called him everything the book: Kenyan, Muslim, Marxist, Communist, Socialist. They hung him in effigy. They criticized him because he *checks notes* likes Dijon mustard and tan suits. Everything he liked, they hated. Everything he did, they opposed. Where was the dialogue then, eh? Where was the understanding? Where was the compromise?

Let me guess.....2 wrongs don't make a right, yes?

by sportsczy Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:18 am

The right extreme called him that. But what did the presidential election votes show? That's the BEST indicator of how most Americans feel:

In 2012, when Obama was the most "hated", he got 65,915,795 votes to Romney's 60,933,504... and Romney was a very good candidate. Clinton should have won in 2016... but she ran a god-awful campaign and she was very unlikeable. She still won the popular vote.

In 2010, when Obama was most popular, he got 69,498,516 to McCain's 59,948,323. Again, McCain was a legit candidate. McCain had no chance though because Bush Jr was actually widely disliked. Nobody was going to vote for a Republican regardless of who he was. Lincoln would have lost lol.

You're also being extreme right now McLewis... or at least you're leaning that way. The Lincoln Project is very very legit. You should read about them and understand their purpose before making misrepresentations.

by sportsczy Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:28 am

I'm optimistic. I like Biden's temperament. With both the house and the senate, he'll have a chance.

I suggest we stop focusing on things that keep us apart and look for places where we can come together, for the good of the US. I know emotions are raw and there's a lust for blood. But let's try to resist that destructive urge.

50% of America are not going to lay down and just accept being bullied similar to the other 50%. If we get into the habit of playing the game of "an eye for an eye", the country will tear itself completely apart and rather quickly. Self-destructive behavior that only serves to appease short term egos.

by McLewis Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:27 am

You speak about Obama as if he won Republican votes. He didn't. He just managed to turn out Democrats at far larger numbers than seen previously. His election caused the current cycle of tribalism. The "Not my president" chants started with his opposition, who elect Trump in direct response. Where were these reasonable moderates calling for them to open a dialogue with Democrats and the left? Where were they when McConnell vowed to make Obama a 1 term president? Where were they when the GOP were so hyperbolic about the national debt that they put a stupid clock on the floor of the chambers to track it? Where were these calls for unity? Where were these moderates you venerate so much? In their hidey-holes, lamenting about how both sides can't get along, instead of doing something about it.

It's easy to call for calm when you're not on the side that have been wronged. You want the left and Democrats to take the high road when it all that has gotten them is right-wing demagoguery masquerading as Republican values. People have suffered and died needlessly under these people and their heartless policies.

I expect to see more of the same because the only thing more resilient than our system of government is the corporatocratic core that powers it from behind the curtains. Biden will not change that at all. Why would he? He's a part of it.

You see my views as extremist and radical. They would be seen as normal everywhere else. I truly don't care either way. I'm not going to apologize for wanting progressive policies to be enacted in this country. For wanting the worker to be as valued as the CEO. We already know conservative policies are not the answer. All they've done is made people poorer and sicker.

by sportsczy Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:20 am

You are very much extremist and radical (right now; i don't think it's your natural state) because of your view of the US as "them v us". It's very myopic. The desire to compromise and unite isn't weakness; it's strength. It's far easier and convenient to do things as you suggest. That's why Republican leadership is weak and collapsing... it's populist. Do you really want the democrats to become the other side of the same coin? Thankfully, the best leaders in our history have almost always travelled unpopular paths. I hope Biden will succeed in his.

In any case, I can only hope that your intolerance will subside. I understand it frankly. Much about the current Republicans disgust me. But my travels have shown me that most of these people (except for the extremists) are mostly gullible and ignorant as opposed to being malicious. They're scared of things they've never experienced... they're just being told to be scared. So it's all about giving them a different perspective they've never been exposed to.

Re: Obama. You don't win any election by more than 10 million votes unless you get people from all parties. His % of the popular vote was the highest since 1988. He also got 365 of the electoral votes (only Clinton has had more since the 80s and he did it twice).

And to be honest, this "you must absolutely vote along party lines or else" is very recent. The typical presidential election voter until 2000 was mostly moderate who chose people over party... so you had most people (like me) who would pick candidates from one side or another... because there were no real sides.

I've literally voted more for a democrat (Clinton one time, Gore, Kerry, Obama twice, Clinton and Biden) than a Republican (George Bush Sr. twice). Nothing to do with party of course. I consider myself conservative. It was about one person v another.

by rincon Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:05 am

Really Obama wasn't hated? The current president kickstarted his successful political career with a racist "investigation" about him.

#ThanksObama

by Myesyats Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:40 pm

sportsczy wrote:locking out republicans from power?

Come on man.

They represent 49.5% of the US people.

I don't think they do, though.... Most of it is identity politics and brainwashing to a degree. Many "republicans" will disagree with democrats no matter what because they've been led to believe that anything that comes out of their mouth is communist agenda. Critical thinking is at its lowest, people stopped evaluating policies on their own accord and instead got dragged down a rabbit hole where the choice is between The Christian Righteous path and the Communist Revolutionary path.

Don't tell me that ordinary people who identify as Republicans actually disagree with $2000 Covid relief instead of $600. They don't, it's just a matter of tribalism and us versus them.

If you present policies without "Democrat and Republican" labels attached to them, I think most would choose the "right" option easily and it's not 50/50.

by Myesyats Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:02 pm

IMO if you break up the Democrat party into 3 separate parties with slight adjustments, Republicans would get 20-30% of the vote at best.

That's what happens here. In last elections there was a right wing swing (left wing opposition failed to mobilize) also thanks to Trump and rightwing populism gaining traction, but the votes were distributed as such (approximately):
Rightwing: 43%
Moderate left: 28%
Left: 13%
PSL (centrist): 9%.
And the rest went to some other irrelevant smaller parties.

Those are all separate parties. I can't imagine choosing between just 2 parties. It took about 19 years for our version of the Republican party to actually get to power with a more varied selection of parties to choose from.

I voted for "moderate left" all the way through since I turned 18 but now I'll be voting for the Left, anything but the Right inshallah.

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:47 pm

“They’re Being Told to Stay Away From Trump”: After a Day of Violence and 25th Amendment Chatter, Trump’s Allies Are Jumping Ship

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/01/after-a-day-of-violence-and-25th-amendment-chatter-trumps-allies-jumping-ship

Reading this fills me with joy.

We hoped that the election would be so blue that it would be an unequivocal denouncement of Trumpism throughout America. We never got that, turned out that almost half of America chose to look the other when it came to his lies, corruption and morally broken policies.

Trump then spent the next 2 months extracting oaths of loyalty from the rest of the party and we feared that Trump was here to stay, even after losing the election.

Yet now it looks like Trumpism might be truly dead, with no representation and everyone associated to him sprinting to distance themselves from him. The electorate might have never massively rejected Trump at the election, but it looks like he finally got that anyways. Turns out all it took was a little treason Proud

by Pedram Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:59 pm

In the end only Trump could destroy Trump, out of his own utter dumbness.

by futbol_bill Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:37 pm

I believe some of you, don’t really appreciate what democracy really is! In simplest terms, it is the majority rules. The outcome of election is democrats get to rule. But it is barely more than 50%, which means you only get things done with compromise and if you try to force feed your agenda, you end up pissing people off, which usually results in you lose in next election. Try instead think of why almost 50% are voting against you.

Some are firm republicans and you only persuade them with centralist agendas.

some are idiots, believe in all the BS, Trump and others have been preaching and there is little hope of reaching these people. However the more Trump gets isolated and hopefully his social media bans become permanent, he can get cut off and maybe some of these folks might be reachable.

Then there are the people that don’t understand the socialism agenda and are desperately afraid of communism. It’s primarily for this reason, you can’t implement most of the agenda you guys keep harping on. You get through a couple of terms with fixing the more urgent issues; pandemic, economy and jobs, fixing the democracy holes that Trump has exposed, fixing the international reputation that Trump has so badly destroyed, climate relief, attacking racism, gun control and police reform, healthcare and immigration, then you will be in a position where it’s not just a slim majority and you can more vividly explain the differences between socialism and communism to these folks.

And finally, there are people who are ill informed or are afraid of something different. These people can be influenced to go either way. Doing what I explained above would go a long way to breaking thru to these people.

But more importantly than anything else, stop your belief that everything can be resolved in a short timeframe. The damage that has been done will take years to fix!

by Myesyats Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:55 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:“They’re Being Told to Stay Away From Trump”: After a Day of Violence and 25th Amendment Chatter, Trump’s Allies Are Jumping Ship

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/01/after-a-day-of-violence-and-25th-amendment-chatter-trumps-allies-jumping-ship

Reading this fills me with joy.

We hoped that the election would be so blue that it would be an unequivocal denouncement of Trumpism throughout America. We never got that, turned out that almost half of America chose to look the other when it came to his lies, corruption and morally broken policies.

Trump then spent the next 2 months extracting oaths of loyalty from the rest of the party and we feared that Trump was here to stay, even after losing the election.

Yet now it looks like Trumpism might be truly dead, with no representation and everyone associated to him sprinting to distance themselves from him. The electorate might have never massively rejected Trump at the election, but it looks like he finally got that anyways. Turns out all it took was a little treason

So how likely is this impeachment attempt to be successful compared to the first one?

by rincon Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:27 pm

There are 12 days left and he just conceded to a peaceful power transition in the middle of the night, likely because they forced him to do it internally. He won't get impeached sadly, there is no time.

by sportsczy Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:49 pm

@Bill. Great post. Ignorance and fear-mongering are, by far, the biggest culprits. Most of these people are victim of one or both of these. Forget the crazies... there are more of them than I would have imagined; but still a minority.

I blame the media frankly. It's hard to get objective reporting these days. Most people get their news from social media ffs.

There has to be a way to inform and educate people. There isn't right now.

by Myesyats Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:10 pm

Firenze wrote:

The Specialist got sacked from work after this. Great job dimwit!

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:27 pm

rincon wrote:There are 12 days left and he just conceded to a peaceful power transition in the middle of the night, likely because they forced him to do it internally. He won't get impeached sadly, there is no time.

I'll content myself with legit attempts at impeaching the 6 or so senators that rejected the election results (aka as even the FT is calling them, the Sedition Caucus). Make it clear for future generations that blindly following the strongman leader and parroting his lies around has real consequences.

by elitedam Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:33 pm

futbol_bill wrote:
Then there are the people that don’t understand the socialism agenda and are desperately afraid of communism. It’s primarily for this reason, you can’t implement most of the agenda you guys keep harping on. You get through a couple of terms with fixing the more urgent issues; pandemic, economy and jobs, fixing the democracy holes that Trump has exposed, fixing the international reputation that Trump has so badly destroyed, climate relief, attacking racism, gun control and police reform, healthcare and immigration, then you will be in a position where it’s not just a slim majority and you can more vividly explain the differences between socialism and communism to these folks.

What does this mean? You can't implement most of the progressive agenda, but the solution is to implement most of the progressive agenda?

by futbol_bill Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:15 pm

?? Is it my English. Biden is speaking live right now and is essentially saying the same thing I just did. If you don’t understand my English, try listening to Biden.

by elitedam Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:22 pm

Your English is great. I wanna know what are the progressive policies that we keep harping about that are too extreme.

by futbol_bill Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:52 pm

The free heath care and education are prime examples. You won’t get all of equality for all in the near term. You also won’t get all the migration issues resolved in short term. Why don’t you go back and ask McLewis and others what more do they expect over what Biden has just said he wants to do on a priority basis?

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:35 pm

elitedam wrote:Your English is great. I wanna know what are the progressive policies that we keep harping about that are too extreme.

Some popular talking points that are considered 'extreme' by the American public at large (not necessarily by me):

Free childcare
Free education
"Free" most things tbh
Forgiving all student loans
Green new deal
Decriminalizing all drugs
Reparations
Nationalizing industries
Banning automatic weapons
Wealth tax

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