Unique wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

chemicalboy99 wrote:

Cowabunga dude!!!

That be like Renato Sanches scoring more goals in 12 months than Kingsley Coman in 18.

That would be crazy!!!!

Funny enough, Renato Sanches scored as many goals in league and Champions League last season as Phil Foden did

and that just ended that debate

Wait a minute!

Renato Sanches Career: 7 in 134 app in 5 Season (Which includes scrub leagues like LigaPro the Portuguese 2nd division)

Phil Goatden: 7 in 26 app last season.

Phil matching Renato's career production in 1 season

nasir6371 wrote:

Unique wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Funny enough, Renato Sanches scored as many goals in league and Champions League last season as Phil Foden did

and that just ended that debate

Wait a minute!

Renato Sanches Career: 7 in 134 app in 5 Season (Which includes scrub leagues like LigaPro the Portuguese 2nd division)

Phil Goatden: 7 in 26 app last season.

Phil matching Renato's career production in 1 season

with players like phil coming through the youth team i have to wonder why you have a net spend of £1.5billion.

@sports what’s your stance on Lyon’s 00 born Caqueret ?

Unique wrote:with players like phil coming through the youth team i have to wonder why you have a net spend of £1.5billion.

Because our assets are fluid.

nasir6371 wrote:
Wait a minute!

Renato Sanches Career: 7 in 134 app in 5 Season (Which includes scrub leagues like LigaPro the Portuguese 2nd division)

Phil Goatden: 7 in 26 app last season.

Phil matching Renato's career production in 1 season

The idea the Bundesliga somehow counts....

Bayern players were doing a lap of honour winning a corner against Liverpool last season.

chemicalboy99 wrote:

Unique wrote:with players like phil coming through the youth team i have to wonder why you have a net spend of £1.5billion.

Because our assets are fluid.

that makes no sense.

Petition to get Phil Foden starting more games for Manchester City. ️ pic.twitter.com/nbkbUjCAy7

— 90min (@90min_Football) January 4, 2021

Goaten

Won't start again in the PL for a while as per usual with Pep.

nice player

Might go down as the GOAT English player when it's all said and done. Will not explain.

Phil Foden vs Iceland - the man to build the team around

pic.twitter.com/iPx44YchQn

— fan account (@Asensii20) June 8, 2024

Apparently this guy (who btw I still maintain is the English Asensio) deserves to have the team built around him and not Bellingham

Yeah, I don’t quite get his hype. He certainly has some talent, but what does it matter if you can’t show it consistently enough? He’s the primary benefactor of Haaland doing almost nothing else than dragging defenders wide, and sometimes he does almost nothing with all of that space he’s provided with.

He’s scored a few sweet long shots this season, but in some matches he just recycles possession or fires the ball out of play without being held accountable for wasting good opportunities to attack. His close control is easy on the eye, but often has a Grealish-like, tendency of not moving the ball forward.

With all of the hype and EPL Player of the Season status, You’d think he’d be able to create something against us with the overwhelming possession they had when we beat them this season. He reminds me a bit of how Jadon Sancho was being hyped up for his long shots at Dortmund, even though probably 80% of them ended up in the stands.

It seems like every 6 months a Man City player is designated as "the man" by some fans and media. Have they already closed the "Rodri should win the BO" chapter this quickly?

Foden is by far and wide the most overrated player in the world today. There is not a single trait in him that stands out to me and its a bit more annoying than when fans tried to emphasis the importance of Grealish who's just bang average.

Football fans are so overreactionary and stupid. They see a player who was putting on game winning performances almost every other week during the run-in, but use a throwaway friendly against Iceland where he just came back from Marbella as their reference. This guy was carrying City's offensive load on his back in the second half of the season while Haaland was injured or was missing 3 sitters every other game. City owe their PL to Foden and Rodri, and it wasn't Rodri who was scoring hattricks or leathering the ball in from the edge of the box repeatedly after December 2023.

Claiming he has no single trait that stands out is such a shit take. Like remarkably so awful that I had to login to reply. He has the best half turn in football. Name me one new-gen player who can receive the ball between the lines and accelerate to a final action as quickly as he does. After years of being shifted to the wing, we've found out he's a zone 14 killer (I knew this years ago tbf), which puts him in unique company with historically very few players. His potential is scary.

He's already developing a trademark inevitable finish when he receives in those zones. What he needs to develop next is that killer pass. He has great passing technique when it comes to switches, but I feel when he plays Haaland through he does it in Haaland's blind spot/passes the ball behind him. It's an angle bias issue. Some of his passes to Alvarez in those spaces have looked better as Alvarez is right footed so he doesn't need to take an additional touch the way Haaland does. See Alvarez's Madrid goal or his missed 1v1 against United in the FA cup for reference.

The main issue with Foden's favored zone is that they're the most congested spaces in football, and you do need players from deep to find you in those pockets. At City the system works to his favor because he has Gvardiol, Stones, Rodri, and Kovacic who can find him in those spaces. Then there's Haaland who pins the opposition defense an extra meter back, which gives Foden that little bit of extra space to turn and attack.

England have the talent to do similar. There's guys like Guehi, Stones, Trent, and Wharton/Mainoo who are more than capable of finding Foden in the pockets. However, Southgate is an awful coach so I doubt Foden will be maximized. England have so much talent and they really need Jude and Foden in the half spaces, but I imagine one of them will be shifted wide and it'll probably be Foden.  

Anyhow, I can't help but notice there's this weird tribalistic agenda regarding Foden. Madrid fans don't like him because he threatens Jude as England's golden boy. Arsenal/Chelsea fans don't like him because he competes with their own star boys in Saka/Palmer. Foden is very much a reality, and to compare him to Asensio is one of the most retarded things I've ever read on this forum.

Anyways, I don't think Foden is the finished product, and his game still needs ironing out. I mean he's still only 23 so that's normal. However, there's been a lot of extremity after the Iceland game. If you want a reasoned and educated take/critique that doesn't rely on retarded hyperbole then here you go:

If you want Foden at his best, then the play needs to be highly systemized. I mentioned it above, but Foden's best trait is standing in the pockets, and then quickly turning and accelerating to create a high quality final action. The fundamental issue with being a zone 14 specialist is that people don't realize how congested those spaces are and why teams have moved away from building around players who want to play in those zones.

I think this season was one of Pep's weaker ones from a tactical perspective, and the games against Madrid (Etihad), Arsenal (Etihad), and United (FA Cup) come to my mind. It's funny because I don't think he played in the middle for the entirety of any of those games. He started on the wing, but when City started looking clueless he was moved to the middle.

Pep doesn't like playing both Foden and KDB in midfield because he doesn't like defending in a 4-1-4-1, and prefers defending in a 4-4-2, but neither KDB/Foden are suited to defending in the double pivot although Pep did say that was the long term goal with Foden. So in the big games it was Bernardo defending next to Rodri, until it was clear City was lacking any incision offensively. This is going to be a fundamental issue that City will experience until KDB leaves and Foden makes the right half space his own.

Anyhow, I remember those big games, and all 3 teams parked the bus and defended ridiculously deep. I vividly remember just how little space there was. Against Madrid and Arsenal, it wasn't even a question of space per se, but also the quality. He's standing and waiting for the ball in the pockets and next to him are guys like Rice, Camavinga, Valverde, Bellingham etc. Athletic freaks. Football is already at a ridiculously high tactical level, but now we have these super athletes defending deep too.

Because of that for him to play in that role he needs to be ridiculously talented. However, it also means the team needs to be really good tactically to find him. City struggled in those games because well it's a question of space. If the team congests the space in the middle, where is the space? The space is out wide. Who did City have wide? It was usually a combination of Grealish, Gvardiol, and Bernardo. It's no surprise they looked like shit until Doku came on, because Doku requires double marking which frees up space in the middle. City signed Savio, and I hear they may be interested in another 1v1 winger. That shows the next evolution that's going to take place with the team. There's no need for ball retentionists out wide if the biggest teams are going to play that defensively against you.

I don't know for certain if City's upcoming iteration will be built around Foden. I've already outlined the risks of building around with a player with his profile in the modern game. Then again, he's also someone who scored ~30 goals (no penalties) from those spaces, so you would want to maximize that talent. City have the talent to do so. They have the passers from deep to find him, and they have Haaland who can pin the defenses back. All he needs are the pacy wingers to help decongest the middle. Ideally his best position is probably in a 3-5-2 (more of a 3-4-3 diamond) where he's right behind Haaland, and there's other players in the half spaces.

I know that the long term vision is for him to be a CM. Pep's main issue with Foden playing in the middle over the years is his lack of pausa. I sometimes felt that was harsh because you've shifted him to the wings for years and the few times you play him in the middle you accuse him of not adapting by not playing patiently enough. I always felt he required on-the-job training and he didn't get that until this year. It made sense before because you had KDB, Silva, and Gundogan already there. This season KDB was injured, Alvarez was off form, and Kovacic didn't suit playing between the lines and preferred playing behind the ball so Foden took his chance.

His understanding of tempo has improved a lot this season. I think it was the game against Everton, where he completely killed the pace of the last 10-15 min with tiki taka passes and open carries. I didn't see a shadow striker at that point, but someone who could legitimately become a CM. I know Pep said the long term goal is for him to become that, but I always had question marks defensively. Defending in the middle requires more concentration, and I feel Foden gets bodied off the ball a fair bit so I don't know if he has the physicality required to defend that deep. That's why for now him playing in that shadow striker role in a 3-5-2 is probably his best role.

If City maintain their 4-3-3/3-2-4-1, then he's best in the half spaces. His shooting angles suit the right half space more, but KDB plays there. However, his game in the left half space is more varied, as he won't have to rely entirely on turning in the pockets, but can also underlap and overlap on the wing, unlike the right where he'll be more restricted to central zones. I'm not a fan of him as a 10 in a 4-2-3-1, because I think that role requires way too much creative responsibility and he's better with more instructions rather than less instructions. Most teams have moved away from playing with a sole 10 in the pockets, and play two players in the pockets now. I was surprised to see Southgate play with a sole 10 against Iceland. Aside from KDB I can't think of too many players who can do that nowadays. Foden isn't KDB and he doesn't have KDB's final pass, but I can't think of any player in world football who does.

Anyhow, Foden really left his mark this season, and deserves his praises. When he is on his game he does look like one of the best players in the world. However, there are some limitations to his game and if you want to maximize him, you have to know the risks you're dealing with. On that basis I can understand why Southgate won't build around him during the Euros. As a result, I can see him being less effective and being criticized heavily. However, I don't think that necessarily makes him a fraud, but rather an indictment on modern football and how important systems/or lack there-of can contribute to a player's performances (Vini for Madrid vs Brazil for example).

Casciavit wrote:However, Southgate is an awful coach so I doubt Foden will be maximized. England have so much talent and they really need Jude and Foden in the half spaces, but I imagine one of them will be shifted wide and it'll probably be Foden.  

That is exactly what I've been thinking.

There is no way Gareth will understand this and there is a good chance that England fails and Jude and Phil will get massacred.

Bellingham has a wider operating window though, while I think it takes a top coach to really make Foden do his thing in the best way possible.

Can't wait to see tbh.

Vibe wrote:

Casciavit wrote:However, Southgate is an awful coach so I doubt Foden will be maximized. England have so much talent and they really need Jude and Foden in the half spaces, but I imagine one of them will be shifted wide and it'll probably be Foden.  

That is exactly what I've been thinking.

There is no way Gareth will understand this and there is a good chance that England fails and Jude and Phil will get massacred.

Bellingham has a wider operating window though, while I think it takes a top coach to really make Foden do his thing in the best way possible.

Can't wait to see tbh.

All the top PL teams defend in a 4-4-2 and attack in a 3-2-4-1. You could make it easily work by having Jude defend next to Rice off the ball as a double pivot, while Foden defends next to Kane up front. Then on the ball Foden moves to the right half space and Jude moves to the left half space. One of the defenders (Stones/Trent) can move up next to Rice to form a double pivot in front of the 3 CB's.

I genuinely think every modern top-level coach would do what I described. However, with Southgate the best you'll get is Foden or Jude defending out wide, then drifting inside with Shaw hugging the touchline. Honestly Bellingham is the more adaptable player so I think he's better off playing on the left and coming inside like he did for Madrid recently. But I can also understand the advantages of having Bellingham defend and press up front next to Kane.

Casciavit wrote:Football fans are so overreactionary and stupid. They see a player who was putting on game winning performances almost every other week during the run-in, but use a throwaway friendly against Iceland where he just came back from Marbella as their reference. This guy was carrying City's offensive load on his back in the second half of the season while Haaland was injured or was missing 3 sitters every other game. City owe their PL to Foden and Rodri, and it wasn't Rodri who was scoring hattricks or leathering the ball in from the edge of the box repeatedly after December 2023.

I can definitely agree that a single game, and a national friendly game at that, is a poor point of reference for judging him or any other player. I don’t see this amazing talent that you see in him, though, and especially not in terms of sustainability or consistency. Crediting him for Man City’s Premier League success seems like a very ambitious claim to me.

As for his potential, we’re all here to witness where that takes him. I’m no more qualified than you to predict how far he’ll go, but I don’t see the same exceptional qualities in him that you do, so I imagine his ceilling is similar to that of other, English players who people have set lofty standards for, despite those players’ inability to showcase exceptional ability on a regular enough basis that any doubt would belong to a picky minority.


I’d love for him to prove me wrong. I have nothing against him personally, and I can see why people like him, but my expectations towards him seem to be significantly more tempered than yours.

What talent don't you see Thimmy?

The most difficult thing in football is scoring goals, and his ball striking especially at the edge of the box is at a ridiculously high level. He scored 27 goals and none of them were penalties and he wasn't playing as a striker.

Not all his goals were long range either, more than half of them involved good off the ball movement where he ghosted into the box.

He's one of the best dribblers and ball carriers in the league. When he gets his stride going it's really fun to watch. My issue with his dribbling is he lacks the running power/strength over longer distances.

No one has his combination of first touch, plasticity, and acceleration when receiving the ball on the half turn. That skillset is an absolute dagger against deep blocks.

He has a good pass on him, especially when it comes to switching the play. His through balls need a bit of work especially when giving them to Haaland since they have conflicting angle biases.

He's great under pressure. He can manouver through tight spaces with his dribbling or tire opposition out with rondo-style passes.

He's not lazy and has good work ethic. He's also versatile. He can play anywhere in the front 5, but his best role is behind the striker.

Again I don't feel like these specific traits are subjective. They're objective and there for everyone to see who watches him. If a player has all of that, how is he not a massive talent?

Foden is filthy. I don't watch city all that much but I definitely think he's been getting better each season. I was confused why he was coming off the bench last season tbh

https://i.imgur.com/KAh4B9Yl.png

This was Foden's run of form after moving into the middle mainly. Although there were some games where he played RW like against Arsenal, Liverpool, and Chelsea. His goals weren't stat padding either. Many were either match winners or differential (tying the game/taking the lead). 15/19 of his goals came after Dec 28. He absolutely deserves credit for helping carry City's goalscoring burden in the second half of the season while Haaland was injured and KDB was getting back into form (KDB had a bright start but faded as the season went on).



I feel like this comp is a good reflection of Foden's skillset. There aren't any long-range goals to skew your perception. I also picked this because it was against a high pressing side where he got more touches rather than a parked bus. You see his strengths and his weaknesses that I mentioned. If you don't see scary potential here then we might just have to agree to disagree lol.

Clutch wrote:Foden is filthy. I don't watch city all that much but I definitely think he's been getting better each season. I was confused why he was coming off the bench last season tbh

He had appendicitis and a foot injury, and by the time he came back Pep settled on his lineup for the run-in which had Haaland up top, Grealish and Bernardo on the wings, and Gundogan and KDB in the pockets. He was a starter in most big games in 20/21 and 21/22. I never understood the narrative that he was bench fodder for City up until this season.

Let’s see how his career pans out, and then I’ll gracefully admit that I was wrong if he turns out to be as scintilling as you describe his potential to suggest. I’m not convinced by the sustainability of his outstanding abilities. I do agree that his dribbling and close control are entertaining to watch when he finds his groove. I find Doku very enteraining to watch when he’s breaking legs with his movement as well, but the exceptionality of his overall play has to have more tangible substance before I become a true fan of Foden.

A highlight reel isn’t going to change my mind about that, I’ve followed him closely for two seasons now, and I watched him more occasionally before that. I see a player with specific talents that aren’t showcased regularly enough to warrant the hype that some are attributing to him. Maybe he needs to reach his full potential, or like you say, KDB needs to leave in order for him to have the right environment to really shine - but that remains to be seen.

While they do perform just fine in the league when KDB is absent, I think his eventual departure will leave a gaping hole in the team that they will struggle to recover from. He’s a very different player from Foden, but I also think he embodies a level of highly sustainable quality that Foden hasn’t shown to be anywhere close to reaching.

And that may be setting the standard too high or comparing apples and oranges, but I prefer to distinguish between the players who are hyped up because they possess undisputed quality, from the players who show glimpses of what might be - which is the category that I believe Foden fits into. And Foden may be a victim of common hyperbole as you say, but as a result of that, there’s also incredible hype behind him that I find to be very premature. I suspect that the video posted by Hala was making a mockery of that particular hype.

I agree that when KDB leaves they will have a gaping hole and I’m not convinced Foden can fill it. But that’s normal because they’re different profiles. One wants to receive the ball from out to in, then turn and shoot. The other wants to receive the ball from in to out, then underlap or cross.

Foden is not a high volume chance creator the way KDB is. He’s still young so maybe he can develop into being one, but for now he’s not. Again I don’t view him through the prism that he’s a KDB replacement. I think he has his own unique profile and it comes with its own strengths and weaknesses.

The comp was his individual actions against Newcastle. It wasn’t a highlight reel as it also showed how he lost the ball. The point is if you watch and read my description of him you’ll find that they match up.

Every player has bad games and stinkers. Even Messi had a fair bit of shit games. We could make so many stinker comps out of KDB, but that doesn’t make him a bad player.

End of the day when a high risk attacking player has a bad game it’s always gonna look worse because things aren’t being executed.

Casciavit wrote:Football fans are so overreactionary and stupid. They see a player who was putting on game winning performances almost every other week during the run-in, but use a throwaway friendly against Iceland where he just came back from Marbella as their reference. This guy was carrying City's offensive load on his back in the second half of the season while Haaland was injured or was missing 3 sitters every other game. City owe their PL to Foden and Rodri, and it wasn't Rodri who was scoring hattricks or leathering the ball in from the edge of the box repeatedly after December 2023.

Claiming he has no single trait that stands out is such a shit take. Like remarkably so awful that I had to login to reply. He has the best half turn in football. Name me one new-gen player who can receive the ball between the lines and accelerate to a final action as quickly as he does. After years of being shifted to the wing, we've found out he's a zone 14 killer (I knew this years ago tbf), which puts him in unique company with historically very few players. His potential is scary.

He's already developing a trademark inevitable finish when he receives in those zones. What he needs to develop next is that killer pass. He has great passing technique when it comes to switches, but I feel when he plays Haaland through he does it in Haaland's blind spot/passes the ball behind him. It's an angle bias issue. Some of his passes to Alvarez in those spaces have looked better as Alvarez is right footed so he doesn't need to take an additional touch the way Haaland does. See Alvarez's Madrid goal or his missed 1v1 against United in the FA cup for reference.

The main issue with Foden's favored zone is that they're the most congested spaces in football, and you do need players from deep to find you in those pockets. At City the system works to his favor because he has Gvardiol, Stones, Rodri, and Kovacic who can find him in those spaces. Then there's Haaland who pins the opposition defense an extra meter back, which gives Foden that little bit of extra space to turn and attack.

England have the talent to do similar. There's guys like Guehi, Stones, Trent, and Wharton/Mainoo who are more than capable of finding Foden in the pockets. However, Southgate is an awful coach so I doubt Foden will be maximized. England have so much talent and they really need Jude and Foden in the half spaces, but I imagine one of them will be shifted wide and it'll probably be Foden.  

Anyhow, I can't help but notice there's this weird tribalistic agenda regarding Foden. Madrid fans don't like him because he threatens Jude as England's golden boy. Arsenal/Chelsea fans don't like him because he competes with their own star boys in Saka/Palmer. Foden is very much a reality, and to compare him to Asensio is one of the most retarded things I've ever read on this forum.

A rare sensible take. I feel like I've just seen a unicorn

Foden is nice, but he is not on Saka and Jude's level yet, calma